Counting On, Season 4 Part 2: Still Far Behind Real Life

[SadieJane]

My kids school does a college day every year (elementary) and they have to wear college gear, and I basically go wild at goodwill to look for this stuff.  Thank God we live in Notre Dame territory. 

 Also I want that dress. I have been eyeing it on Amazon for weeks now. lol

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

Actually, in the last two years or so a LOT of focus has been on the dangers of football in America. There was even a pretty popular movie that came out not too long ago about the dangers of concussions. So no. It's not just being swept under the rug anymore. Many schools in the US are even banning tackle football. 

Right, I think that's exactly what @NakedKnees was saying. In the last few years people have finally started paying attention to how dangerous it is, and I also agree that it's overdue.

I also really have a problem with how in most sports athletes are encouraged to physically push themselves to the point where it's normal to see teenage athletes with serious injuries.

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Here's the 2015 movie @KelseyAnnmentioned:

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3322364/?ref_=m_nmfmd_act_7

I believe the study done that first drew attention to the connection between CTE and football (and that I believe the movie is based off of) was done back in 2005. So like Kelsey said, the NFL and tackle football have been drawing criticism for several years now in regards to safety. It's definitely not a new thing. 

I'd say that these issues getting public attention is still fairly new. It's only been within the past few years that it has become commonly known even if some researchers were studying it years ago. Several major stories about CTE have come out just within the past few months.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

I've been watching TLC UK streaming on an app on my tablet while working on a sewing project. There are ads for Counting On almost every commercial break. In the UK ad, there is a hokey song in the background, and a voiceover saying "For (blah blah blah wholesome family fun)... You can count on the Duggars." 

Accurate slogan. We can count on the Duggars: For being repetitive, for being on Duggar time, for overuse of the word 'neat', for an endless parade of cookie cutter weddings, for bi annual (at minimum) pregnancy announcements, for xenophobia, for hiding ugly truths behind smiling attractive faces, for for feral children and roaming pets, for excessive use of paper plates...

The fact that this show is so far behind real life makes it literally on Duggar time. I can't believe he have to sit through all the Joy wedding planning stuff when she's already pregnant. I'm pretty sure this will cycle will repeat next season with Kendra. In fact, I'm counting on it. 

[SongRed7]

On 9/29/2017 at 1:18 AM, Rio said:

essa and Ben do seem happy as a couple. Interesting when Spurgeon bumped his head and was crying and Ben was hugging him and he was fine with that, didn't seem to want Jessa nor was she very interested in consoling him. She seemed a bit cold although in general I agree with her about not getting too anxious about little bumps and knocks.

Austin is a great catch there in Fundie Land. He is just really attractive and I don't mean only looks, just the way he carries himself, the funny personality, the focus on Joy, hardworking, successful. I think it's great that Joy wanted to call him for emotional support. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm glad you pointed this out.  One of my issues with other forums (like Pickles) is the constant BEC commentary. { "OMG, they are eating off of  styrofoam plates? (as the poster just finished emptying the bin on the Keurig machine with a million little empty plastic cups),}

I've always felt one could question/disagree/snark on issues without just tearing people to shreds just for the fun of it. While I question a lot/most of the legalistic/paternalistic beliefs, I DO think Jessa and Ben are happy and I think they are great parents (considering we only get to really see a staged version on TV or snippets on their personal social media channels). 

And while Joy definitely is portrayed as being all submissive all the time, she's also very young.  My hope is she will grow a backbone. But at the same time, I do think Austin is a pretty good guy even within the confines of their community. He's hard working and from what we've been shown, has a good sense of humor and seems supportive. 

I hate, hate, hate, hate when each time a new guy is introduced to the family, posters on other forums (again, PICKLES) jump in right away with "He looks abusive. I can tell by the look in his eyes. Something is off. I just know he's going to beat her."  SMH! 

 

 

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

1 hour ago, SongRed7 said:

And while Joy definitely is portrayed as being all submissive all the time, she's also very young.  My hope is she will grow a backbone. But at the same time, I do think Austin is a pretty good guy even within the confines of their community. He's hard working and from what we've been shown, has a good sense of humor and seems supportive. 

Being so desperate to please a boyfriend that you'll do whatever he wants even if you're not feeling it is rather normal behaviour from 19 year old girls. Not saying every single 19 year old girl does, but it is normal because many people that age are still learning to assert themselves. It is probably more obvious with Joy because this is her first relationship and while she has known Austin for a long time, she hasn't known this feeling of being in love for a long time. 

The reason I find it a bit concerning in Joy's case is that she is already married off at this age/stage, not because she is married to Austin specifically. 

[2manyKidzzz]

I just really like Austin's work ethic. A real business which he "owns" "heads up" with help of course. Bin goes out the door, but we don't see anything being done. Oh, I forgot, DWreck does save Catholics from themselves, how silly of me not to remember that.

But I do like that work ethic. And he just seems realistic about work/life/supporting a family. 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Bin goes out the door, but we don't see anything being done.

I honestly think this is because what Ben does would make for super boring TV. I suspect he's still doing maintenance/upkeep on Jim Bob's properties. Which is fine - nothing wrong with working for a family business. But I think he's doing it to pay for his ministry education, and that's what I'd like to hear more about: how much longer does he have till he gets his diploma/degree/certification/whatever? What then? What kind of ministry does he want to go into? What are his career goals? How does he plan to support Jessa and their 11 sons? If you want to convince people that your lifestyle is the best, show us how and why.

[2manyKidzzz]

@singsingsing Yes, nothing wrong with a family business at all. But it is not as independent as Austin's. We don't know if Austin's dad is involved financially or what. But it is a long term business. And I know this because I watch HGTV and would like to win the lottery and redo old houses in my small South Jersey borough. Yes I would, save those hardwood floors, donchaknow!!

And, lawnwork would be boring....but wait.....Counting On already has some pretty boring segments!!

[Free Them All]

You have to be able to speak to be in the ministry.  Baby Ben has difficulty speaking.  We now know that he can't take care of his sons without Jessa helping him even for a couple of hours.  He leaves the house to do something that none of us know what it is, and he continues to tell his wife he wants 19 sons.  Wrestling on the floor with a toddler does not make you a good father.

Hope he learns to feed his infant, change his son's diaper without banging his head on the changing table.  Hope he takes some speech therapy classes.  Hope he learns how to use a condom.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

And, lawnwork would be boring....but wait.....Counting On already has some pretty boring segments!!

unless you get into some hard core landscape architecture. That would be nice, but that is above the Dugger's ken. 

[singsingsing]

25 minutes ago, Free Them All said:

We now know that he can't take care of his sons without Jessa helping him even for a couple of hours. 

No, we know that that's TLC's narrative, and it's the same boring as fuck narrative they've been feeding us over and over again for years. "It's soooooooo hard to take care of more than one kid at once!! LOL! Look at this young couple struggle with multiple kids! Check out this dad trying to babysit his children! Hopeless, amirite?!" 

They ask leading questions that are pretty much guaranteed to produce the answers they want to further reinforce their narrative. "Is it hard taking care of the kids without Jessa? Does it make you appreciate her more?" Of course he's going to say yes and spit out the exact line they want. First, because he's been trained to do so - this show is his bread and butter - and second, because he doesn't want to insult Jessa or toot his own horn. "No, taking care of my kids alone isn't that hard at all! I have no problem without Jessa here!" doesn't sound great, and he knows it.

I'm not saying Ben is the best dad in the world, but I have no doubt that he (and probably every other dad on that show) is far more capable than TLC would have us believe (just like the women are far more capable of cooking basic meals).

25 minutes ago, Free Them All said:

Hope he learns to feed his infant, change his son's diaper without banging his head on the changing table.  Hope he takes some speech therapy classes.

Because kids never accidentally bang their heads in their parents' presence. Do you have kids? If you do, and they've never bumped their heads or otherwise hurt themselves while you were around, congrats, you must be the only perfect parent to have ever existed.  And what the fuck about him taking speech therapy classes? The guy is a bad speaker, he doesn't have a speech impediment, and even if he did, he's not obligated to take speech therapy because you don't like the way he sounds. 

[VelociRapture]

@singsingsingSomeone pointed out earlier that Spurgeon looked pretty content being comforted by his father after a scene where he bumped his head. It's not always the case, but I've found kids usually want to be comforted by people they love and feel at ease around. I think that may be a bit of a better indication on what type of father Ben may actually be than the edited "OMG BABIEZ ARE SO HARD!" storyline you pointed out.

And it's not even just TLC promoting this outdated storyline either. Tons of sitcoms have as well. Makes me sad because lots of fathers are perfectly capable of handling the kids on their own. 

(Don't know if this has gotten better in recent years or not. Husband and I don't really watch many newer sitcoms.)

[RubyRei]

I wanted to add my two cents in about the indecisive Joy situation. As someone who has dealt with depression and anxiety as well as chronic fatigue, sometimes making a decision is just NOT an option. Even something as simple as choosing what cereal to get at the store could lead me to tell me boyfriend "please just pick!" which he knows means I'm having a tough time and he helps me out and just picks the cereal. It might sound silly, and I get that, but it's very real to me.

 I, along with all of us here, obviously don't know what's going on in Joy's life but some people are indecisive or indecisive in times of stress and it doesn't have to be indicative of some greater issue. On the other hand, it could be the many things others have speculated (submissive baby maker). Joy has always seemed headstrong so my hope on this specific situation is just that it was stressful for her and she got overwhelmed and "bossy," as others have put it. I also get moody when I'm stressed and overwhelmed 

 

tl;dr Sometimes making decisions is hard mmmkay!!!

[Carm_88]

Ben clearly watches the kids by himself, I doubt that was the first time that he has done so either. They just wanted to make a big deal out of it. I don't actually think that he was really struggling, they were just choosing to show when Spurgeon was crying. I also don't think that Ben would have had Henry so far away from him if the cameras weren't there. They just wanted to show him running back and forth to the stroller to check on Henry.

I don't think Ben is perfect but I think that he is involved in the raising of his kids. 

[singsingsing]

And it wouldn't exactly be surprising if Ben had never watched both kids on his own for more than a couple hours before, given that he works outside the home and Jessa doesn't, and Jessa is most likely still breastfeeding. 

[cascarones]

Menfolk are capable of watching children, sharing in chores, except when they're on a tv screen. Then it's a big deal or a hilarious plot twist as dad struggles and utterly mucks up doing laundry. It's asinine, but I agree that Ben clearly has watched the kids before. Jeremy is the only one who seems to be shocked at normal baby behavior, but considering his wife raised her siblings they'll be fine when it's baby time. No clue about Austin, but I'm glad he's at least more comfortable with the cameras now, he's a lot less stiff and it's easier to see his dynamic with Joy.

I do appreciate that we're getting to see a bit more of the youngers, Jackson has stolen my heart, but also disheartening. It's obvious with almost all of their sister moms gone there is a lot less order. Joy trying to get them to pack was a bit painful to watch, some of the girls are certainly old enough that it shouldn't have been such an ordeal. 

On a side note: I couldn't sleep and was curious about the Putmans thing, ye gods, that's a dumpster fire of dependency on Daddy that makes the Duggars look practically normal.

[Lurky]

4 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

But it is not as independent as Austin's. We don't know if Austin's dad is involved financially or what. But it is a long term business. And I know this because I watch HGTV and would like to win the lottery and redo old houses in my small South Jersey borough. Yes I would, save those hardwood floors, donchaknow!!

But he must have had financial support to get his business off the ground, no?  Flipping houses is something that takes a LOT more capital than starting a lawn care business, for example.   It's not just buying a house, it's the tools and materials they need  to do this.  As you say, you'd need to win the lottery, and Austin may be independent now, but he started this young if he's flipped 5 houses and bought his own at 22, so it's pretty much guaranteed he had financial help, even if that was just his dad standing guarantor on a loan.   I don't think we have any evidence to praise him for being obviously independent.

 

[VineHeart137]

Jessa has posted on her IG story about Ben handling the boys by himself before. She went to get her nails done or something and she posted a screenshot of her texting Ben to check in. Ben said everything was fine and Henry was asleep. He seemed to have everything under control.

But of course TLC focused on the times when Spurgeon crying. Because it's SO much more entertaining to watch Dad "struggle" with his kid when Mom's not around to take charge! I wouldn't be surprised if they had purposefully timed it around nap time so Spurgeon would be tired and cranky.

[2manyKidzzz]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

But he must have had financial support to get his business off the ground, no?  Flipping houses is something that takes a LOT more capital than starting a lawn care business, for example.   It's not just buying a house, it's the tools and materials they need  to do this.  As you say, you'd need to win the lottery, and Austin may be independent now, but he started this young if he's flipped 5 houses and bought his own at 22, so it's pretty much guaranteed he had financial help, even if that was just his dad standing guarantor on a loan.   I don't think we have any evidence to praise him for being obviously independent.

 

I disagree and I do praise him for being independent, we don't know his finances that is not our business. He is being entrepreneurial and working on, if not already independent. He wants to support his family, hence his agreement with his dad to wait to get married until he had reached some sort of agreed upon financial status with the five flipped houses. He is head and shoulders above DWreck.

And I do want to fix the old houses here. Well, not me personally, the people I would write the checks to. And the hardwood floors........love them.....

[Analytica49]

What bothered me the most about this episode was the fact that the little girls were brought along. Jennifer, Jordyn, and Josie were clearly bored stiff during the dress try-ons. Young kids should NOT be forced to sit all afternoon (or however long it took to film this episode) and watch an older sister try on dresses. They should be outside running around, having fun, playing with their friends.

I think the youngest girls were brought along for two reasons. First, because MEchelle and the cult want to indoctrinate these girls as much as possible. Let's give Jordyn the clear message that girls' only purpose in life is to marry and have babies. Let's teach Jennnifer that the wedding day is the highlight of a young woman's life and she has to put all her dreams, plans, and hopes into it. Let's show Josie that what really matters is how she looks, and that buying a big white dress (regardless of what you might really want) is the only possible route to wedded bliss.

Second, I think the girls were brought along because doing so might generate good teevee: Will Josie roll around on the dresses? Will Jordyn look dazed and confused by her family's activities? Will Jennifer cry her eyes out because she knows full well that she will never live with mother #2 again? Whee!! Spectacular entertainment values here, and who cares about these children's privacy?

 

[ThunderRolls]

Finally had a chance to watch the episode. Israel's birthday cake DID have his name on it, and honestly, it seemed like a pretty normal birthday cake for a 2 year old - OSU themed and all! Seriously, I looked, and I didn't find anything to criticize them for regarding that particular thing. 

To me, Joy didn't seem like someone who was being forced to do something she didn't want to do - Joy came across as someone who doesn't know what the heck she wants to do, but is stressed the fuck out because of some ridiculous 3 month engagement time crunch. 

It appeared to me that Joy did the group dress shopping because that's what her sisters did, she did the big wedding because that's what her sisters did...given a longer "courtship" and engagement, perhaps Joy would have had a better idea of what she really wanted and actually put her foot down to do it. I know, the Duggars suck and are big phonies, but I think if Joy really wanted a smaller, outdoorsy wedding, she probably would have gotten it. I'm sure TLC would have been on board since it would have been a different enough storyline to promote. 

Yes, Joy is insecure and clingy. I don't think it's a mental health thing, I think it's a maturity thing. I don't know too many 19 year olds who aren't needy for their boyfriend's approval. Austin is Joy's first romantic interest, and she's been really sheltered her entire life - and they've been together for half a second. If they were a non-fundie couple, they could give a chance to grow up together a bit (and maybe even have some physical contact other than a side-hug) before taking huge steps such as marriage and babies. 

I was impressed by Jessa during this episode - she was patient with Joy, and she seemed like she genuinely wanted to help. Ben might be a little dim at times, but he seems genuinely supportive, and think he's brought out some of Jessa's better qualities. If I remember correctly, these two also had the longest courtship? 

But ugh, Jenny and the other younger girls having a meltdown about Joy leaving. That was absolutely pitiful. I think it would be challenging any time a close sibling left the house to either go of to college or to get married - it's just so much worse when you depend on that sibling to be there for you in the same way a parent is. It seems like these big heartaches happen every time one of the girls gets married, and that really makes me worry about the littlest Duggars. 

[Free Them All]

Baby Ben tags along on all of the girl's trips.  He is supposed to be watching the kids so Jessa can participate with her family.  It is curious as to why he doesn't keep the kids with him at home.  We have seen that they have breast pumps and know how to use them.  If he is such a good father, then keeping his sons for a couple of days should be doable.  He also has family in Ark, that can help him.  He has difficulty connecting his thoughts with his speech,  Speech therapy may help him.  In any case, he does not have the skills to be a preacher since speaking in public is a requirement.  If this is what he wants to be when he grows up, I hope someone can convince him to change course.  He does not appear to be happy.  None of them do.

[singsingsing]

7 minutes ago, Free Them All said:

Baby Ben tags along on all of the girl's trips.  He is supposed to be watching the kids so Jessa can participate with her family.  It is curious as to why he doesn't keep the kids with him at home.  We have seen that they have breast pumps and know how to use them.  If he is such a good father, then keeping his sons for a couple of days should be doable.  He also has family in Ark, that can help him.  He has difficulty connecting his thoughts with his speech,  Speech therapy may help him.  In any case, he does not have the skills to be a preacher since speaking in public is a requirement.  If this is what he wants to be when he grows up, I hope someone can convince him to change course.  He does not appear to be happy.  None of them do.

Ben is not a baby. He's an adult man with a wife and two children. I have no idea where this 'baby' thing is coming from, because he doesn't act like a baby, either. If it's just his age, that's pretty insulting to adults in their early 20s.

Stop taking what TLC feeds you as gospel truth. It's not. You're seeing their highly edited, carefully crafted narrative. They do this with every single couple, not just Ben and Jessa. They repeat the same formula because they think it's what works for them.

Ben is not eloquent, and I agree that he does not have the skills to be a preacher, but he's not that bad. Come on. He needs public speaking lessons, not speech therapy. There's a big difference.

I disagree that he doesn't seem happy. I think he and a lot of the others seem perfectly happy. But how would we really know? All we see is what TLC shows us and what they choose to share on social media. That's a drop in the bucket of their actual lives.

[backyard sylph]

@ThunderRolls you saw it as I saw it.

I absolutely get why people choose not to watch the show and instead rely on funny recaps of it. But there are always little things you won't know unless you're really seeing it, and also, as @singsingsing mentions, we are not seeing real reality a lot of the time, anyway. There's a certain amount of reading between the lines to do, and that's even harder when you're just reading about it later. Something about the observer effect in all that.

I'm not saying anyone should watch it. Just that it's easier to remember it's semi-scripted when you do. And, well, you can find empathy for some of the situations, which is always a good thing. If we want people to understand and personally reject the nature of the carnival that appears to be unraveling before us, being able to see them as real people who are also staged for a camera at times can help.

[Carm_88]

46 minutes ago, Free Them All said:

He has difficulty connecting his thoughts with his speech,  Speech therapy may help him.  In any case, he does not have the skills to be a preacher since speaking in public is a requirement.  If this is what he wants to be when he grows up, I hope someone can convince him to change course.  He does not appear to be happy.  None of them do.

Ben doesn't appear eloquent, so maybe being a preacher isn't in the cards for him but at least he's trying. Ben may find a path that better suits him. I wish him luck with it all. It's not easy. 

 He's young, not a baby, he acts far more mature than Derick has these past months. He quietly goes about his business without making too much of a fuss. I can't fault him for that.