Counting On, Season 4 Part 2: Still Far Behind Real Life

[HarleyQuinn]

Well Joy did threaten to get Jana on the little when they weren't "Obeyin'" her in one episode so reading all these comments is not shocking.

I might actually watch this one on demand.  

[nst]

So last night's episode was so sad and so depressing what with Joy acting like a loon, jenni heaving, michelle acting like a bitch and just overall AWFUL episode 

 

[wandering woman]

12 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

Hey! They could've taken all that money spent on first class tickets to pick out a dress and put it towards the house! Flying first class when all you do is tout how thrifty you are royally irks me.

They didn't pay for first class tickets. TLC foots the bill for their travel.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Coming back to this. Yes, Joy seemed stressed, but she also came across as a spoiled brat. It's obvious everyone has always done EVeRYthINg for her. Yet she bossed around the younger ones when they were "packing for the show trip."

I didn't get a bratty vibe I got a I HAVE to do this even though I don't want to vibe.  It was pretty clear to me she and Austin wanted to just have a quickie wedding and get to work on each other and their house.  As I keep saying just because you are having a big to do that SOME people want doesn't make it a dream wedding, for me it was a nightmare and I get the impression it was for Joy as well.  If I had it to do over again I would have said "just plan it, it's what you want, I'll show up, play the part of the pretty princess and be on my way" 

As for bossing around the smalls, it is her job, those little girls have no idea how to behave unless told.  

Was anyone else bothered by Josie? She's old enough to sit still and behave at almost 8 years old.  Is she just allowed to act like a feral child, she was acting like Spurgeon, who was a overly tired 18 moth old.

Lastly did anyone thing this wedding dress thing was all staged? Like perhaps Joy had the dress done and picked but she needed to do it for the camera?  Everyone else is staged and restaged why not this?

[Lurky]

So, I haven't seen the episode (THANK YOU @Buzzard!) but I want to defend Joy for a moment.

She's going wedding dress shopping without her real mother, without any of her friends, in front of TV cameras, to a shop she'll know she probably won't like most things in as she was there for Jessa Jinger's shopping.  In any other family she's be the girl who is never out of jeans, but she's being forced to be this princess (and it sounds like, pressureed to lose weight). It sounds like she was responding the way she does because this was the opposite of what she wanted in every way.

Joy hates being "girly" and was forced to do it with everyone judging her for it.  I bet if she'd, I don't know, been able to run around some formalwear shops/department stores with Carlin, or hell, with Austin, picking out the kind of dress that she could feel comfortable in, and then maybe vising a couple of wedding shops to find similar things everything would be completely different. 

I get that a lot of FJers really loved having a princess-style wedding day, but as many people don't.  It's exactly the same as telling someone who's always dreamed of the huge white meringue dress in a church with all the trimmings that although she can afford it, her parents are insisting she does the registry office and small lunch version of a wedding.

And as for her not "keeping sweet" and refusing to play along to something she was being forced to do?  Good on her, I like that her spirit hasn't been broken!

 

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, Lurky said:

I get that a lot of FJers really loved having a princess-style wedding day, but as many people don't.  It's exactly the same as telling someone who's always dreamed of the huge white meringue dress in a church with all the trimmings that although she can afford it, her parents are insisting she does the registry office and small lunch version of a wedding.

But thats exactly whats so sad about all of this. She HAS to have a big wedding, regardless of what she actually wanted.  The Duggars HAVE to put on a show.  If Joy wanted to get married at the top of a mountain in climbing gear with just her and Austin she is denied that simply because her family puts money before the person.  Marriage is such a big deal to them, yet they cheapen it with their shows.

[SapphireSlytherin]

6 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Was anyone else bothered by Josie? She's old enough to sit still and behave at almost 8 years old.  Is she just allowed to act like a feral child, she was acting like Spurgeon, who was a overly tired 18 moth old.

Josie's behavior has always bothered me. The whole family lets her get away with acting feral since she's so speshul. At her age, she should be able to sit still, speak in coherent sentences, and even read a little bit. There is clearly no structure to her days or her life. Those kids keeping "Duggar Time" (and the older ones still reveling in it) just blows my mind. They get out of bed, stagger down the stairs, and go back to sleep on the sofa. They need STRUCTURE and DISCIPLINE.

[Lurky]

11 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Marriage is such a big deal to them, yet they cheapen it with their shows.

Yes, exactly this!  I'd watch the hell out of Joy and Austin getting married on the mountain top - and it would help reach a whole new audience as TBH Jinger, Joy and Kendra's wedding all looked the same to me, just with different details.  And we're going to see the same thing every year until TLC goes off the air, and wow it'll be dull.  I completely get that some people love the details, but to me they're cookie cutter events. 

It's bizarre to me, because they talk about marriage being so important to the family, and it's literally the thing the girls were bred for, and I would have thought the actual wedding shouldn't be important, relative to married life.  I love that Jessa did her "you want 1000 guests?  Do what you want then, I don't care" because she genuinely didn't care - but still had to have all this stuff she didn't want.

ETA Weddings are not about what the woman wants, in the Duggar world (look at Kendra's!  Duggar productions all the way!) they're about what JB and Michelle want.

I do think she might have been more into it if Jill was there.

And wow, poor Jenni - the first young Duggarling to lose two real mothers.  She was devastated when Jill left, but had Joy to lean on - now she loses Joy too.  That is enough to cause major issues in anyone!

ETA Some upthread have suggested Joy should have been more grateful because everything was being organised for her - but why?  If she doesn't want any of it, it's being forced on her, not done for her.

 

[wandering woman]

A few thoughts after watching this episode:

Michelle was completely checked out. She was uninterested in wedding dresses, her kids, and anything else.

Her spray tan looked awful.

Joy was overwhelmed and stressed out. She probably hates having to plan a huge wedding, isn't interested in wedding dresses, and would be happier with a simple, small wedding.

It concerns me that she constantly calls Austin when she is even the least bit upset. Due to the way she was raised, she is unable to cope or even make simple decisions on her own.

Jenni, Jordyn, and Josie looked bored and unhappy the entire time they were in the store. Bringing them on this ridiculous trip was a stupid idea.

Miss Renee is beyond annoying. I was annoyed hearing the sisters say that she designed Jinger's wedding dress.  Ummm . . . no . . . she made some alterations to it, and they were no big deal.

This episode was slow moving and boring. Devoting five or more minutes to discussing each wedding dress was about as interesting as watching paint dry.

 

 

[Carm_88]

I actually did think that Joy was being a brat. I don't think that it has to do with being a tomboy either. I was a pretty big tomboy in my high school years, I was 17 when I was required to pick out a prom dress. I didn't know what I wanted, so I asked the dress lady and my Mom to help me find something that looked nice. I had a big puffy princess dress that wasn't at all me, it was however, very much the style at the time. 

Was I into it? No. Would I preferred to have done it with my friends? Yeah, I would. It was much more fun to do a few years later with university friends. Did I act completely disinterested and sulky the whole time? No. 

So no, not cutting Joy slack here. It was all handed to her on a platter the only thing she had to do was pick out a dress. 

[JMO]

11 hours ago, GotCaughtDancing said:

Watching Joy is like watching a more judgemental but clueless Jill. 

Is that even possible? 

[nst]

Jinger was the only normal one yesterday and that is because she ACTUALLY ESCAPED to a degree - yes she lives with that insane husband of hers, but still 

 

[Lurky]

14 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I actually did think that Joy was being a brat. I don't think that it has to do with being a tomboy either. I was a pretty big tomboy in my high school years, I was 17 when I was required to pick out a prom dress. I didn't know what I wanted, so I asked the dress lady and my Mom to help me find something that looked nice. I had a big puffy princess dress that wasn't at all me, it was however, very much the style at the time. 

Was I into it? No. Would I preferred to have done it with my friends? Yeah, I would. It was much more fun to do a few years later with university friends. Did I act completely disinterested and sulky the whole time? No.

You are one of my favourite posters, but I disagree your situations were similar, and that Joy should have been more like you, and it's because of the bolded.

You had your mom with you, and asked for her help.  I would lay cash money Joy would rather have had Jill with her than Michelle, and Carlin/another friend instead of Jinger and Jessa, especially as we saw all her snarking on Jinger last season. 

You presumably wanted to go to your prom, or you wouldn't have gone, right?  You asked for help and took it, even if you didn't want the dress.  Joy seems to have wanted none of this, and especially not in the way it was given.  She wanted to be working on her house, she wanted to be married, but she was having to waste her time being turned into a princess doll because her parents wanted it. 

Sure, she might have been offered choices between which princess dress, which flowers, which colours, but she won't have even been given the choice to, I dunno, have her wedding in the outdoors, or in a barn - it was this one way or nothing and I hate that.

ETA and just because everything was handed to her on a platter, if none of it was anything she actually wanted, why should she pretend it was?

[JMO]

I agree with @singsingsing.  Joy is young and reacted like a typical 19 yo when faced with a prospect she doesn't feel comfortable with.  She called her boyfriend and stonewalled everyone else.  I will also say that the fact that everything from her and everyone else was prefaced with "Austin likes X" Or "Does Austin like your hair/dress/etc like this?" WTF.  If I heard his GD name one more time out of one of their mouths...  But, it's all a fact of immaturity and age.  If she wasn't in this cult she and Austin would be dating and screwing around and if they decided in a couple of years to marry she would be more mature about it.  She probably would say screw the big wedding, we are getting married up in the woods where he proposed.  And I'm only inviting 1/5 of the people and we are grilling venison steaks.  But, alas, those are all what ifs. 

[singsingsing]

Honestly, I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty sure I often acted disinterested, sulky, and depressed when shopping as a teenager. Especially if it was a long drawn out shopping trip for something I wasn't that interested in and I was feeling pressured by the people around me. Yeah, it wasn't great of me to be like that. I'm sure my attitude earned me more than a few side-eyes. Yes, even at 19 - I was better at 19 than I was at 15, but I wasn't perfect. I was still a teenager. The world was confusing and I felt bruised and battered by it all, and I was at times obnoxious. I grew and matured, as most people do, and though I'm sure I'm still somewhat obnoxious at 29, I'm much less of a 'brat'. I'm sure that Joy, even getting married and pregnant so young, will also grow out of the sulky teenage stage. Being considered an adult now and suddenly having way more independence than she ever did at home will probably do wonders, frankly.

[AtlanticTug]

I hated Joy in this episode. Last week I merely disliked her, but wow, she's actually worse than Jill to me. At least Jill had some enthusiasm back in the day. 

Couldn't stand Joy's whining and piss poor attitude. Guess what, if you don't care about any of the details, then outsource them and make decisions quickly. Don't call your fiance to whine and ask him for words of "encouragement". My God what would she do in an actual crisis? Look, lots of us had larger weddings than we cared to in the name of keeping family peace or whatever. I personally only cared that the food at my wedding was awesome and that we got our non-traditional venue. Didn't care about the other stuff but I had a mother that sure did. So when we went to pick out the place settings and the forks and the church flowers and whatever, rather than waffling and crying to my fiance, I went with what she liked and got the hell out of there. But I was also a corporate lawyer and time is money. Joy has NOTHING else to do with her life. Nothing. So she has the luxury of behaving like a brat rather than efficiently dispensing with making decisions that she allegedly doesn't care about. If you don't care, then pick anything and move the fuck on. It was the same BS last week with choosing the cake. Just gross. And given that she has NOTHING to do in life, could she not have spent 5 mins thinking about at least what she doesn't want? Hello.

Poor Jenni. 

Way too much Michelle. It really hits you in an episode like this just how much you've enjoyed not seeing her.

Jessa I suspect is pregnant which is a terribly sad thing given that Ben I think is well on his way to checking out. He is better than Derrick, he likes playing with the kids, but he does not want to deal with a brood of them nor does he know how. Wait until his hot wife is preoccupied with 5 kids under 6 or 7 and he'll be as present mentally as Josh was (without the grossness). They seriously need to take several years off before adding to the herd.

Jinger was fine and normal and pleasant without Baaaaabe around. Didn't miss him at all.

[SassyPants]

I did see bits and pieces while I was surfing last night. A show I was watching was on a nearby channel, anyhoo...How many times did Jana mention how thin Joy looked? Jin. sitting their with her finger on her chin and bossy assed Jessa, OMG. Why didn't Ben stay in AR with the boys (if formula was being used as others have said), and where was Hannie? Was she at the wedding dress shop or was she the J'slave assigned to assist Ben, albeit hidden????

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, Lurky said:

You presumably wanted to go to your prom, or you wouldn't have gone, right? 

Actually no, I didn't want to go. I would have been much happier not going. I felt it was over the top and not at all what I would have wanted. Does it suck to be pushed into something that you don't want? Yes, it does. It's not a good feeling to be made into a cupcake when it's not at all what you want. So I feel for Joy on that aspect and my Dad didn't want to be there any more than Michelle did and he's my parent to turn to. 

However, sometimes the dog and pony show is what you get. Joy being miserable didn't help her in this situation. If anything it stressed her out more. I wish she could have gotten what she wanted, I do. I just think that the utter stonewalling and just sticking to her misery added to the stress.  

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I didn't see here snarking on Jessa or Jinger's dresses, she said she this was Jill dress, too much lace for me that was Jinger's dress too much train for me, that was Jessa's dress too much poof for me.  it was more pointing out that she didn't want a big lacy poofy dress with a huge ass train. 

She wanted Jessa Jana Jinger and Jill there for sure, I think she could have done without MEchelle, Josie and Jordan. It is too bad, Carlin and Kendra couldn't have been there maybe even her future MIL. Honestly the whole dress shopping thing seem staged to me, I think the sisters wanted to be in on it but Joy had already gotten her dress and had other things to do but had to be there for the cameras.  I'm noticing Joy and Austin are NOT on social media they post here and there but for the most part they are living their lives away from their family and want to be left to themselves, much like Jinger and Jeremy did at 1st.  They've been married 4 months it will be interesting to see once the house is done and the baby(ies) are here.

Last but not least, Joy is a TEENAGER! don't forget that.

[Lurky]

@Carm_88 But you could have chosen not to go.  You made an active choice to go, and you accepted that and as you said, you asked the people you were with for help.  Joy had NO choices in this, and everyone around her was telling her this, and being open about the fact they knew Joy didn't want any of it but were making her do it in a way she hated anyway.

And I'm with @singsingsing, she's still a teenager, and far less mature than the average FJer was at that age.  So much better that she was stroppy than if she kept sweet (I find it weird that some FJers are being more annoyed at her for this than her own family were!)

And it's not like she flat out refused to pick a dress or make a choice.  It sounds like she didn't actually like any of the dresses, and that happens so often - she didn't have the choice to go online or look in another shop, even!  But surrounded by dresses she didn't like, and in a situation she didn't want to be in, she picked one.

(I wonder if, in the context of having to have a wedding dress, she would have been happiest to have had Austin's mum's or Jill's dress made over for her?  Like, she hates all princessy wedding dresses anyway, so why not have one that is meaningful?)

[Tiny Bubbles]

Yikes, I missed this episode and thanks to the great recaps and discussion here, I'm glad!

Agree that Joy did sound like a sulky teenager.  Given that the Duggar approach to weddings was never going to be in synch with what we have seen of Joy, I wonder if she was encouraged to act differently from her sisters because that's the character TLC has assigned to Joy?  

Or maybe she just didn't have the depth of character to suck it up and act. I know I didn't at that age, so no judgment here.  With marriage and a honeymoon baby, I think reality is going to hit hard and I predict that Joy is going to grow up fast. Good luck, Joy. 

PLEASE TLC - only one more Duggar wedding.  Just Jana, that's all I want. 

[nst]

22 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I did see bits and pieces while I was surfing last night. A show I was watching was on a nearby channel, anyhoo...How many times did Jana mention how thin Joy looked? Jin. sitting their with her finger on her chin and bossy assed Jessa, OMG. Why didn't Ben stay in AR with the boys (if formula was being used as others have said), and where was Hannie?

she was there - hannie she pushed Jenni with her hands on the couch when watching the dress shopping 

the littles I think are not nice to each other 

[2manyKidzzz]

But this is sort of a "job" in Joy's life. This is for TeeVee. I was just uncomfortable watching her behave that way....like she just couldn't even think about what was happening. 

And so what. Perhaps she really just didn't like that spotlight. So, look at the dresses ahead of time and gather some thoughts.

[Fluffy14]

What's the deal with having to go to this particular store?  

And with less people in the Duggar household Duggar time should be speeding up. Less people take less time to get ready.

And what's with that stupid intercom ? Michelle the girls are in one room get upstairs and get your hands in motion and help out. 

Get Joy's toast ready,help out for crying out loud.

This family tries so hard to look normal and the more they show themselves in these latter years the more we find out how dysfunctional they are.  The more we see how completely checked out Michelle is. 

Josie lalagagging (as my mother called it) all over everything and Michelle does nothing. Has she forgotten who she is? Like she waiting for her buddy to come and discipline? I am so hating Michelle right now.

I get the feeling these kids have to fend for themselves emotionally, and physically.  

[JenniferJuniper]

58 minutes ago, Tiny Bubbles said:

Agree that Joy did sound like a sulky teenager.  Given that the Duggar approach to weddings was never going to be in synch with what we have seen of Joy, I wonder if she was encouraged to act differently from her sisters because that's the character TLC has assigned to Joy?  

Good question, and one I asked myself while watching.  It's really hard to tell real reality vs. manufactured reality.  Joy has always been portrayed as "the sporty one" who hung out with boys until the day came for her to hang out with the older sisters (and that was probably the day she got her period).

So was Joy's behavior 100% genuine or was it part of TLC's effort to show something very different from the other three dress shop episodes?  More of the same would have been that much more dull.   Mind you, I don't think Joy gave a shit which dress she ended up with (and am willing to bet the dress Grandma found was a previously selected plant) but I also suspect the petulance and angst were played up and/or edited up.

Jennifer's sorrow was the only thing that was clearly genuine.  Poor child has lost just about everyone now and she's obviously shy and very sensitive.  Although I do have to confess that Jordyn's sly smile while all of the sisters were weeping did amuse me a little.  Even as young kids, she and James have always had a coolness factor about them that none of other Duggars possess.