Counting On, Season 4 Part 2: Still Far Behind Real Life

[JDuggs]

10 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

8 would be on track with common core math. I know the third grade math program starts with basic multiplication and division. 

Yep. Starting with problems like "you have 8 blocks. If you put 2 blocks in each group, how many groups will you have?" using manipulatives or drawing pictures to solve. Then you eventually memorize the facts  and then do long division later.

[singsingsing]

I started basic division in grade 2, over 20 years ago. It probably varies from place to place.

[AlternativeVoice]

Joy looked so miserable during the dress shopping so so miserable and everything about what Austin wants? I still have no idea who Joy is. I know she was a tomboy. That's it. Who are you Joy ???? Just my ramblings 

[Lurker]

IMO once they trained the tomboy out of Joy there was nothing left.  Joy has no idea who she is either now and is using Austin for her anchor and the Insta baby to fill her void.

[nst]

23 minutes ago, AlternativeVoice said:

Joy looked so miserable during the dress shopping so so miserable and everything about what Austin wants? I still have no idea who Joy is. I know she was a tomboy. That's it. Who are you Joy ???? Just my ramblings 

I hope we get an ALL ABOUT JOY episode to just tell you that exact thing 

anyone care to tell us who Joy is ? 

Bueller

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

I thought Duggars were only allowed to multiply

I was looking for a funny best comment meme picture, but I saw this and could not stop laughing. And I don't even know why I find it so funny, but here you go:

[GotCaughtDancing]

Watching her not have an opinion or be able to make a decision on her own yet refusing to give up the control to others to do it for her doesn't bode well for her rushed future of married with baby. Joy should have taken a hard look at Jill's life and used it as a cautionary clue rather than a model of perfect fundy life.

 

[mstee]

I feel like the whole episode was "Austin wants this, Austin wants that" and that was all that mattered. Lame. 

[2manyKidzzz]

Austin is the person in Joy's life who she knows is actually really focused on her. Her mom moved to SCA. Austin is for her. 

When you are one of 19 that might be a big deal. Just sayin'

[Lurky]

8 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

But this is sort of a "job" in Joy's life. This is for TeeVee. I was just uncomfortable watching her behave that way....like she just couldn't even think about what was happening. 

Wow, a job?  That implies she's chosen it, or even sees the benefit of it.  ETA 5 I bet she'd be happy without the TLC cash, if she was able to be private

Joy most likely can't remember life before there were TV cameras.  She's never chosen this, all she knows is if she acts up more (for example, saying she's going to get married outside, or in a small ceremony), she'd be cast out of her family, and cut off, with no resources at all.  She's never had an education, or options, or even the freedom to go to the shops alone (I had that at 11, she will only get it after she'd married, IF Austin agrees).

I think it's shitty that *because* JimBob and Michelle chose to sell their family for money, all the kids should want what they want, and keep sweet regardless of their own wants. 

I completely agree with @allthegoodnamesrgone - Joy was literally raised by a child herself. A child of 7 years old when she was born!  When Joy was 5, Jill her 'mother' was only 12, OMG! And the person who raised her wasn't there for her wedding preparation, while her birth mother, from what everything has been said, was completely checked out of the process.  The people who were pushing her to have the family-style wedding were her least favourite sisters, Jessa and Jinger.  It's a shitty situation all round, because it's ALL on their parents, and with Michelle seemingly DGAF about the process - why should Joy? 

5 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

Some of her "I don't knows" were polite masks for "I really hate this layer cake you put on me." That was easy to see. Who hasn't attempted to demur in the face of "oh my god this is awful?" In the talking heads, she articulated her concerns pretty well.

ETA Yes this!  She knew she'd hate everything in that shop, because she was there with Jinger!  It's shitty that was her only choice!

ETA 2 - someone asked why they had to go to that shop:  because it's cheap!  This is the other thing:  normal brides are allowed more choice.  People saying "why didn't she look online for things she liked?" - what's the point?  She can only have what "Miss Reneee" can badly make over with short notice.

ETA 3: Why did they fly 1st class when they have pilot and personal jets?  Jessa did last week too - is it to try to make them look more "relatable"?   1st class is seen as better than JD & Josiah piloting their private planes?

ETA 4. I'm not a Joy-fan, Jessa is my least-worst Duggar, but I really feel for her, being forced to play this role she clearly hates more than the other older daughters.

[backyard sylph]

2 minutes ago, Lurky said:

ETA Yes this!  She knew she'd hate everything in that shop, because she was there with Jinger!  It's shitty that was her only choice!

Well, exactly. And I don't want to be some great Duggar sister apologist, but I have a feeling that if it was left among themselves, they'd have chosen another shop for her. We saw them shop with her for a date dress; we know they have her number.

[singsingsing]

Just watched the episode. I felt so sorry for Joy. She was clearly on the verge of tears the entire time she was there, and I can understand why. It was obviously an emotionally draining experience. If she's a brat, well, I guess I'm a brat too. Just the list of things she was dealing with at that exact moment:

-Traveling. Traveling is stressful, at least for me.

-Getting married in less than a month. Doesn't matter how excited you are for the big day. It's stressful.

-Wedding planning. Wedding planning is stressful. I really felt for her when she was saying, "I was supposed to call my cake lady today, and I forgot. I was supposed to call the lady about the flowers today, and I forgot." Some people are NOT good at planning, and really don't like it, and she's obviously one of them, and that makes it all like 10x as stressful.

-Being on the verge of being thrust into adulthood. She's pretty much been the 'kid sister' her entire life. Now she's about to become a woman, with a husband, a house, a sex life, impending pregnancies, etc. That's freaking scary!

-Her future husband back home working on their future house, which is a complete dump, and having no idea whether they're going to be able to move in, or have to live in a camper, or find an apartment, in less than a month. 

-Hating shopping and having to travel to another state to spend the whole day doing something you hate.

-Little sisters so devastated that you're leaving home that they're literally sobbing as they clutch at you.

-Not trusting your own mind or opinion at all because you were raised to have no independent thoughts and to always defer to other people, and being terrified that you're going to make the 'wrong' choice, and having a dozen family members surrounding you for hours, all talking over you, giving their opinions, demanding your opinions, and pressuring you to choose THE DRESS.

-The fact that this woman specifically designed and created six dresses JUST FOR YOU, and you walk into the store and think, "Oh my God, I don't really like any of these" and then you feel horribly horribly guilty and pressured and you don't know what to do because you're terrified of being rude and seeming ungrateful and disappointing her and everyone else but you really don't want to wear a dress you're uncomfortable in on your wedding day.

-Oh, and to top it all off, the whole thing is being filmed for the reality show that your parents decided you were going to star in from childhood, and millions of people are going to watch your wedding and pick apart every detail of your appearance.

I actually thought she did really well under the circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if she broke down and they edited it out. I would have. That whole situation absolutely sucked balls.

[Scottie]

When I think about all of the "Austin likes / Austin doesn't like" business that Joy professes, it makes me sad.  While others may make the mistake of trying too hard to please their significant other at the expense of themselves, Joy - and the others don't get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. They are forever bound to their first love interest, with all of their inherently unhealthy behaviour being continually reinforced and encouraged by their families.  The pressure to please and prove your worth must be immense and all consuming, and this is what their normal is.

Hearing Joy balk at all her options is frustrating, I do feel bad for her - she has to perform not just for her family but to the TV audience. Also, did anyone else read on Lily and Ellie's blog that Ellie was along for all the 'fun' that was the dress shopping experience? I can imagine it was an absolute circus behind the cameras...

[Lurky]

@singsingsing I want to give you a standing ovation for that comment - thank you.  Like I say, Joy is not my least-worst Duggar, but I feel for her SO much - she's coping with all these pressures while not only not having the resilience to be charming during them, but deliberately being brought up *without* any resilience skills.

ETA I bet most of us had to deal with eg the personal consequences of not doing our homework/putting our PE kit in the wash etc.  Joy has never even had this, and the first place she does is when she has to plan her wedding?  Yikes!

[SapphireSlytherin]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Traveling. Traveling is stressful, at least for me.

Joy has traveled since she was an infant, including internationally. I say no way was she stressed simply from traveling.

 

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Wedding planning. Wedding planning is stressful. I really felt for her when she was saying, "I was supposed to call my cake lady today, and I forgot. I was supposed to call the lady about the flowers today, and I forgot." Some people are NOT good at planning, and really don't like it, and she's obviously one of them, and that makes it all like 10x as stressful.

This goes against "all things Joy" when she's been hailed as the family "project manager" regarding getting things done. I'll give her scatter-brained, though, with the wedding planning which is, indeed, stressful.

11 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Hating shopping

Yup. Her sisters and mother and grandmother TLC no doubt insisted she go.

 

12 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

The fact that this woman specifically designed and created six dresses JUST FOR YOU

Highly doubtful. Pretty sure she just pulled them off a rack.

[Lurky]

13 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Joy has traveled since she was an infant, including internationally. I say no way was she stressed simply from traveling.

My little sister has been traveling internationally since she was 5 years old and our parents split up (I was 9).  We spent all our childhood/teens flying internationally - like 8 times a year at the very least [ETA without parents - from 9 I was in charge while we moved between parents].  My sister HATES flying, and is super-anxious about traveling, *because* she has flown so much.  I think I'm blasé about it, but if you traveled with me, you'd be amazed at how early I want to get to the airport etc etc.  And like Joy, I had to be responsible for my siblings' behaviour when flying, and believe me, it leaves a mark that never fades.

[BundleofJoy]

3 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Joy has traveled since she was an infant, including internationally. I say no way was she stressed simply from traveling.

Maybe I'm reading this as way more judgmental than you meant it, but honestly? Being an experienced, frequent, international traveler does not mean that traveling eventually stops stressing you out. I have traveled internationally since infancy, going on an international plane trip nearly every year, but as I started getting older and getting more responsibilities and becoming more aware of the sheer amount of organization that flying entails, it has become increasingly more stressful to me. 

Even my mother, who at one point had to fly trans-Atlantic twice a month for nearly a year, still gets super stressed out from traveling. For some people it just doesn't get easier. 

[front hugs > duggs]

Count me in as someone who has flown multiple times a year since I was six months old, including internationally, and still gets anxiety with traveling and flying. I'm legitimately being kept awake at night now for a trip I have planned for Christmastime. 

Also @SapphireSlytherin, I noticed you downvoted the two posters above me. While nobody on FJ ever needs to explain why they choose to downvote, I think it's interesting you did so based on others experiences. 

 

ETA: just because traveling causes stress or anxiety, doesn't mean we can't or won't do it. Imagine if I gave into my anxiety, I'd never have seen such beautiful places in other parts of the world!

[xlurker]

5 hours ago, JessaBlessa said:

my wife and I's three children".

THIS!!!!!  Since when has this become proper grammer?!  I have heard TEACHERS use "I" like this....you would never say "I's three children"  This drives me CRAZY

[Rachel333]

33 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

-Oh, and to top it all off, the whole thing is being filmed for the reality show that your parents decided you were going to star in from childhood, and millions of people are going to watch your wedding and pick apart every detail of your appearance.

I think this is an important point. I'm becoming more and more convinced that putting your child on a reality show is child abuse. There are serious consequences to putting your life up for public consumption and children can't consent to that or understand the ramifications of it. It's also essentially child labor that they often aren't compensated for.

[SapphireSlytherin]

6 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Also @SapphireSlytherin, I noticed you downvoted the two posters above me. While nobody on FJ ever needs to explain why they choose to downvote, I think it's interesting you did so based on others experiences. 

You're right. I did. And I don't owe you (or anyone) an explanation for why I did so. Have a great day.

And sometimes I'm sad that I'm limited to 10 down votes per day. lol

[Audrey2]

10 hours ago, wandering woman said:

Jenni, Jordyn, and Josie looked bored and unhappy the entire time they were in the store. Bringing them on this ridiculous trip was a stupid idea.

 

Sadly, these girls must be trained indoctrinated in what their futures will be, much like other girls their age visiting an older sibling during Little Sibs Weekend at college. They must be raised that their biggest day in life is their wedding day, and their only purposes are to marry and breed. 

I can hear Michelle's conversation with the four younger girls now:

M (speaking in a baby voice) Your big sister Joy is getting married! Today, we're going to the dress shop to choose her wedding dress. Someday, you'll meet your Prince Charming too, and you'll get a big, fluffy white dress and a fancy party when you marry him.

Josie: May I get a fancy light up crown to go with my dress?

9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

How many times did Jana mention how thin Joy looked? 

This was interesting as I read this. It seems to me that Jana and Michelle went to Weight Watchers at some point (19 KaC?). Is Jana doing this to push the one body type myth, or is Jana concerned about how quickly her sister's body has changed? I can see others putting pressure on Joy to lost weight for her wedding.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Just now, Audrey2 said:

or is Jana concerned about how quickly her sister's body has changed?

Her tone struck me as congratulatory rather than concerned.

[SassyPants]

14 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I think this is an important point. I'm becoming more and more convinced that putting your child on a reality show is child abuse. 

ABSOEFFINLUTELY!!!!

Reality TV  entertainers who are minors have zero legal protections-not on hours, conditions, earnings, privacy or education- NONE of those elements are protected by law. It should be against the law to do this to children without them having both legal protections and a choice.

I am sure some of the Duggar and Bates kids would have said, "NO thanks."

[singsingsing]

44 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Joy has traveled since she was an infant, including internationally. I say no way was she stressed simply from traveling.

Uh, so have I. It's still stressful. What kind of an argument is that? There are plenty of things that I've been doing since infancy that still stress me out.

 

45 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Highly doubtful. Pretty sure she just pulled them off a rack.

That's not what Joy was told. It doesn't matter whether they were just pulled off the rack, it matters what Joy's perception was, and what she knew the perception of the millions of people watching (and judging) the episode would be.