Real Life Fundie Encounters - Part 4

[RavenclawPajamas]

On 7/5/2018 at 7:45 PM, Jigsaw3 said:

Depending on the sect, Orthodox Jews are allowed unaccompanied vocal music (with some misogynistic restrictions.

Musical instruments are allowed too (you may have been thinking of Shabbat, when they aren't), but yes, they're very into singing.

On 7/6/2018 at 1:09 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

I don't think they were wearing tights. That would have been a dead giveaway for me. I'm inclined to believe that they were Christians of some sort, since they were singing in English and I didn't recognize the tune (I'm Jewish).

Not all Orthodox Jews wear tights, to be fair (and they'd have to be a pretty liberal branch if they're women singing in the street).  And the tunes used in Orthodox communities are often unknown in non-Orthodox communities.  But you're right, singing in English does make it unlikely that they're Orthodox.  Plus, what you described is something I'd expect from young seminary women, not married women (which, if they're Orthodox, they'd be, given the headbands).

[Jana814]

 

13 minutes ago, RavenclawPajamas said:

Musical instruments are allowed too (you may have been thinking of Shabbat, when they aren't), but yes, they're very into singing.

Not all Orthodox Jews wear tights, to be fair (and they'd have to be a pretty liberal branch if they're women singing in the street).  And the tunes used in Orthodox communities are often unknown in non-Orthodox communities.  But you're right, singing in English does make it unlikely that they're Orthodox.  Plus, what you described is something I'd expect from young seminary women, not married women (which, if they're Orthodox, they'd be, given the headbands).

This is true. My sister works with an Orthodox Jewish woman who refuses to wear tights. She just wears longer skirts so people in her community think she is wearing them. 

[RavenclawPajamas]

3 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

This is true. My sister works with an Orthodox Jewish woman who refuses to wear tights. She just wears longer skirts so people in her community think she is wearing them. 

Yep!  And in many communities there is no expectation to wear tights.  In some communiities it's sufficient to wear past-the-knee skirts.  In others it's sufficient to wear just-above-the-knee skirts.  And in others, even pants are permissible.

[Briefly]

Why are tights required?  For modesty purposes?  I'm familiar with some Jewish customs but not the orthodox ones.

[EyesOpen]

So I also saw a group of ladies in Jean skirts and head coverings like lace headbands today... very long hair lots of babies. It concerns me a bit that I’m seeing more and more groups of what look like fundamental families in my area!?!

[EmainMacha]

1 hour ago, EyesOpen said:

So I also saw a group of ladies in Jean skirts and head coverings like lace headbands today... very long hair lots of babies. It concerns me a bit that I’m seeing more and more groups of what look like fundamental families in my area!?!

That sounds a bit similar to the group @nastyhobbitses mentioned upthread. Are you in the UK as well?

[EyesOpen]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:45 PM, EmainMacha said:

That sounds a bit similar to the group @nastyhobbitses mentioned upthread. Are you in the UK as well?

No! SE Michigan, US either there is an uptick in families like this in my area or I’m becoming more aware of seeing folks like this because I’ve been reading here...

[RavenclawPajamas]

On 7/12/2018 at 7:03 PM, Briefly said:

Why are tights required?  For modesty purposes?  I'm familiar with some Jewish customs but not the orthodox ones.

Yep, for modesty.  There is a rule in the Talmud (I think), which is a code of Jewish law from around the 5th century that forms the basis for later codes of Jewish law, that says a woman's "shok" must be covered.  But unlcear whether that means thigh or calf.  It's mostly agreed that it's the thigh, but some communities wear tights just in case it actually means calf.

[EowynW]

Today my MIL told me that she didn't think my brother in law being a stay at home dad would work well or last long because "only women are wired to stay home and care for the kids." 

I told her "not me" and that if we ever had a kid I didn't want to be home full time and wanted to work even just a few hours a week. She was so horrified. 

[Lisafer]

I think this is probably the best place for my current bit of fundie drama, but I have to do a little background.

Growing up, we spent every Sunday afternoon listening to audiocassette sermons of a tremendously fundie, hypercalvinist preacher. He was one of the yelling, screaming, hellfire and brimstone type preachers and I hated his sermons. They gave me panic attacks and anxiety. It seemed like he wanted to take all the fun out of everything in the world. His word was law in his church. I mean, he was an arrogant son of a bitch.

So my mother is visiting, and mentions this guy's family (she's friends with him and his wife). My mother is all sad because one of the preacher's children is estranged and won't allow her children to see their grandparents. 

Me: "Well, I can understand that."

Mom: "I think she'll regret not letting her children know their grandparents."

Me: "I don't think so. I know you like that preacher, but I hate him. And I don't hate many people, so I can understand where she's coming from!"

I know this is rambling, but wherever that lady is, kudos to her for putting her children's welfare above faaaaaaamily. I have very little doubt that her estrangement is quite justified. Sometimes karma bites fundies in the ass. 

[OutoftheShadows]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:22 AM, EyesOpen said:

No! SE Michigan, US either there is an uptick in families like this in my area or I’m becoming more aware of seeing folks like this because I’ve been reading here...

*waving to you from Oakland County* I saw a fundie at Meijer not too long ago. Like you, I was all, “WUT?? Here? In MY Meijer?” She had all the tells-looong, scraggly hair, no makeup, very plain looking, floor length denim skirt, some sort of clunky shoes, button up woven plaid shirt, just looking kind of dowdy and downtrodden. I’m at this particular location two or three times a week (Hello, feeding teenage boys!), and this woman totally stood out to me. I tried to surreptitiously scan the contents of her cart, but she had just started shopping, so there were only two or three things in it. 

[Briefly]

5 hours ago, OutoftheShadows said:

*waving to you from Oakland County* I saw a fundie at Meijer not too long ago. Like you, I was all, “WUT?? Here? In MY Meijer?” She had all the tells-looong, scraggly hair, no makeup, very plain looking, floor length denim skirt, some sort of clunky shoes, button up woven plaid shirt, just looking kind of dowdy and downtrodden. I’m at this particular location two or three times a week (Hello, feeding teenage boys!), and this woman totally stood out to me. I tried to surreptitiously scan the contents of her cart, but she had just started shopping, so there were only two or three things in it. 

That describes the majority of the ones I've seen in the Tulsa area.  Some of them are clean and dressed neatly, long skirts and sleeves but at least look put together.  But most of the women I see look downtrodden and not very well organized.  The girls are usually a little better than mom, but the sons are usually perfectly put together and it's very obvious where the majority of the parental care and attention goes - and it's not to the girls.  The fathers are generally what I call slobs - arrogant and self-important.  However, I was in Joanne's Fabrics a few weeks ago and their was a fundy family in front of me in the line.  The mom was in her mid to late 20's, she had 3 kids with her.  I was with my daughter and her boyfriend, we were having a problem getting on their website for a coupon and she overheard us.  Then she told us exactly where on the site we needed to be and what coupons were there, and she was extremely friendly in general.  Her husband and the rest of the kids came in to the store at that point and there were all some of the friendliest people I've ever met.  It was a nice change.  It wasn't just the clothing, we heard part of their conversation while in line and that's how I realized that they were a fundy family.  It was a nice change from being pointedly ignored or receiving dirty looks from the usual fundies we seem to come across.

[EowynW]

My fundie father in law joked that we should call ICE on his Hispanic neighbors because their mariachi (is that how you spell that?) music was too loud. I wanted to flip the table then and there.  Also had a side helping of anti Muslim during that visit. 

Then this morning my mom sends me this text saying I needed to be brave in life and not be afraid to have children, etc and to stop looking for the wrong in this world (I've been pushing back against church abuse cover ups, people putting down women & others in the church and the world and pushing against this political climate.) Then, and this is a kicker to me, she says "life has not misused or abused and you had a great life in my opinion." Not even going to touch that with a ten foot pole, Mom. 

I feel like I maybe get subtle gaslighting  from her because she just doesn't understand how harmful her beliefs. In her mind, she's absolutely right. And her in her mind, she did raise her girls "right & godly." Such a weird place to be in with fundie parents some days. 

 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

@EowynW I know she's your mother and you love her, but that is gaslighting and it's not subtle.

Your mother is telling you that what you think and feel and know is wrong. it's the equivalent of "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes", except she said it nicer.

Of course she said you had a great life, because to admit you have a point and a right to your own thought, feelings and knowledge is to admit that she was wrong in some way.

Don't give in. Stand by what you know is true about your life. Keep pushing back against the things and attitudes you know are wrong, Follow and fight for what you know is right, not what someone else thinks is right.

You are such an awesome badass -- and I mean that in the most positive way.

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@EowynW I agree w/ RedHair. I don’t talk to my mom every day, or week, or (yeah) month. But! she is always supportive and believes me and validates what I feel. I just told her something completely upsetting and awful about me that qualified as a bombshell. She went through it calmly enough, didn’t tell me I was crazy and said she believed me. Ridiculous as it might be. That’s what moms should do.

 

[Briefly]

23 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

@EowynW I agree w/ RedHair. I don’t talk to my mom every day, or week, or (yeah) month. But! she is always supportive and believes me and validates what I feel. I just told her something completely upsetting and awful about me that qualified as a bombshell. She went through it calmly enough, didn’t tell me I was crazy and said she believed me. Ridiculous as it might be. That’s what moms should do.

 

Yes, that's exactly how mom's should be. We might not always understand or approve, but we still need to love and support our children.  My mom and I were not extremely close, we were just too different in many ways but also very much alike in other ways.  She was nearly 39 when I was born, she was a depression-era baby and I was born in the early 60's.  There were a lot of societal differences between her childhood and mine, and I think that was difficult for her to understand.  But I always knew that she loved me and that was very important.  I have made sure that my daughter knows I will always have her back. If I don't agree with something, I might tell her - depending on what it is.  But I will always love her and will always be here for her. It sounds like you are in the same place with your mom and I'm glad to hear that.

[Karma]

My mum is fabulous, and although my decision to cut my eldest brother out of my family’s life saddened her, she understands why.  She’s kind, generous, supportive, living, always there for me to talk to,  I spent today with her and her sister and we visited their mothers grave.  She died when they were a toddler (mum) and infant (aunt).  My aunt was given up for adoption, and mum found her 50 years ago, when they were in their 20s.  As we stood there I said to them how sad it was that they’d missed out on knowing their mum, and how lucky my cousin and I were to have had such lovely mothers.  I never take mine for granted, particularly now that she’s getting older.

[feministxtian]

Having to lay down the law with my youngest. Long story, short version...he needs to learn to fly without a safety net. He wants to move back here to LV, but we have decided he can't live with us...he'll get lazy and not work...and we like our peace and quiet. So, he can move back but he'll be staying at the Salvation Army until he gets his shit together. It sucks ass and I feel guilty as fuck but...I have picked this kid up far too many times and as long as he believes he has a soft landing, he will never get his shit together. 

[Aine]

On 7/19/2018 at 12:31 PM, Lisafer said:

I think this is probably the best place for my current bit of fundie drama, but I have to do a little background.

Growing up, we spent every Sunday afternoon listening to audiocassette sermons of a tremendously fundie, hypercalvinist preacher. He was one of the yelling, screaming, hellfire and brimstone type preachers and I hated his sermons. They gave me panic attacks and anxiety. It seemed like he wanted to take all the fun out of everything in the world. His word was law in his church. I mean, he was an arrogant son of a bitch.

So my mother is visiting, and mentions this guy's family (she's friends with him and his wife). My mother is all sad because one of the preacher's children is estranged and won't allow her children to see their grandparents. 

Me: "Well, I can understand that."

Mom: "I think she'll regret not letting her children know their grandparents."

Me: "I don't think so. I know you like that preacher, but I hate him. And I don't hate many people, so I can understand where she's coming from!"

I know this is rambling, but wherever that lady is, kudos to her for putting her children's welfare above faaaaaaamily. I have very little doubt that her estrangement is quite justified. Sometimes karma bites fundies in the ass. 

I just wanted to say that you're awesome for saying this to your mother. That is one of those circumstances where it isn't directly affecting you right this moment, it is about his daughter and her parents and children, and it is often easier to just go, "Mmmhmmm" and let it pass but you were brave in saying that.

I have one crappy, abusive, and manipulative parent and even though I was taken through child services multiple times, there are still people who she manipulates into thinking that she was innocent and she's just a poor mother whose child rejects her and (maybe worse) there are people who know what was done, or at least the most that every became common knowledge and that was still real bad, and they tell me that I'll regret not making my relationship with her right and that my children will "miss out" on their grandmother. I still step in and financially support her sometimes with legal things when she gets herself in trouble, I do my best to keep her off the street, and I've done my best to keep her safe and healthy when she's been pregnant or had custody of my much younger half-siblings. I care even though I wish I didn't and many think I'm idiotic for doing so. But my kids will never be left with her and I don't want them to ever meet her because a small snippet of her is charming. I know that. I never want my children to be susceptible to her manipulation and warped ideas of right and wrong. I imagine that preacher's daughter has some similar feelings.

[Lisafer]

16 hours ago, Aine said:

I just wanted to say that you're awesome for saying this to your mother. That is one of those circumstances where it isn't directly affecting you right this moment, it is about his daughter and her parents and children, and it is often easier to just go, "Mmmhmmm" and let it pass but you were brave in saying that.

 

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for saying that about me. My mother can be a very mentally overpowering person, and yet I find myself becoming more and more able to push back against things she says that are wrong or concerning. She doesn't like it very much, but I am no longer willing to be entirely silent. I try to pick my battles, though.  

[mango_fandango]

I was in London today, along the Southbank. I passed this girl who was wearing a long-sleeved top, some kind of vest top over it, a long skirt and had covered legs (only saw a glance). Bear in mind, it was boiling hot today, around 86 Fahrenheit. (This is London, and that sort of temperature doesn’t happen often).

I turned to look at the group of people she was with, and sure enough the two guys had the long curly forelocks (is that the word?) I know there are some Jewish communities in London. 

I always feel for people who have to cover up for religious reasons in such hot weather. The Duggar/Bates fashion isn’t too bad (I imagine) since you don’t have to cover the arms and legs completely. 

[nastyhobbitses]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:16 AM, Aine said:

they tell me that I'll regret not making my relationship with her right and that my children will "miss out" on their grandmother.

Kids "missing out" on a relationship with a toxic person is like saying that your kids are really "missing out" on an authentic Australian beach experience because you made sure they didn't get eaten by saltwater crocodiles. 

[Lisafer]

5 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

I was in London today, along the Southbank. I passed this girl who was wearing a long-sleeved top, some kind of vest top over it, a long skirt and had covered legs (only saw a glance). Bear in mind, it was boiling hot today, around 86 Fahrenheit. (This is London, and that sort of temperature doesn’t happen often).

I turned to look at the group of people she was with, and sure enough the two guys had the long curly forelocks (is that the word?) I know there are some Jewish communities in London. 

I always feel for people who have to cover up for religious reasons in such hot weather. The Duggar/Bates fashion isn’t too bad (I imagine) since you don’t have to cover the arms and legs completely. 

OT, but temperature differences are so funny! We would have thought it was really nice weather if it had only reached 86 degrees today! (I think we were about 102). I can't stand heat. I hide indoors.

[CarrotCake]

5 hours ago, Lisafer said:

OT, but temperature differences are so funny! We would have thought it was really nice weather if it had only reached 86 degrees today! (I think we were about 102). I can't stand heat. I hide indoors.

86 degrees in London feels very different from 86 degrees in Italy.

I don't know where you are but I can imagine it is more like Italian climate ;-)

[CatholicLite]

About a week ago at work there was this family that came in with I think sixish kids. The first thing that struck me was that I though that the mother was really young (looked about late teens early twenties) then I realized she was the older sister. And the little girls were both wearing longer jean skirts. Boys were wearing polo shirts, as was dad. Mom had Michelle Duggarish hair. I felt really bad for the older girl because she was basically acting as a mom to the younger kids, and having no fun at all (I work at a children's museum). 

Another two families came in that same day and I think they were fundie jewish? The mothers had hair coverings, one with a tichel, the other with a kerchief. I think they were speaking hebrew. I don't think they were Hasidic because they were wearing normalish modest clothing, one of the younger girls was even wearing leggings!