Dillards 28: A Walk Down Memory Lane

[Lyle Lanley]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Derick loves grifting and being holier than thou. Telling other people how to live their lives makes him happy, in the US there is push back against that. Which he doesn't enjoy. 

Tell me about it.

I was wandering around late last summer and saw a very formal wedding. Being the creep I am, I decided to see what the wedding party was wearing. The groom had a nicely groomed, stylish man bun.

That is when the man bun jumped the shark from edgy to every day wear. Right there folks. It stopped being edgy the second you put on a tux with one and have a hairdresser coif it just right.

Guess that's why Dullard got rid of the man bun.

[Gillyweed]

16 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said:

That is when the man bun jumped the shark from edgy to every day wear. Right there folks. It stopped being edgy the second you put on a tux with one and have a hairdresser coif it just right.

I think it's considered edgy if the sides are shaven (which I have seen a lot of). Anyway, I personally prefer the manbun on occassions like a wedding than him wearing his long hair down. 

Eh, you do you. Whatever your hairstyle is, rock it. 

[nssherlock]

On 4/1/2017 at 1:56 PM, Palimpsest said:

None of the Duggar kids have seemed particularly academically inclined to me, but that is hardly encouraged by Jim Bob and Michele obviously stinks as a teacher and a motivator.  It doesn't mean that they aren't quite bright in their own way. 

I don't think any of the Duggars are very bright to begin with --- neither JB or Mich are, so where would they get the genetics from?

That said, they would have to suppress any real intelligence, it is simply not allowed in the cult.    There is absolutely no room for independent thought, logic, creativity, etc.   Beginning with blanket training, all that is beaten out of the kids and I cannot imagine.ANY adult who joins the cult having much intelligence.   The cult is a haven for losers, perverts, weak men who need to dominate but could never do it on their own.

I suppose some of the "headships" who follow Gothard do it because they are smart enough to know they will reap the benefits of Gothard's "rules" without having to do much actual work, but they seem mostly demented, perverted, lame, just plain losers who found women dumb enough to follower their twisted cult rules.

Anybody with an ounce of real intelligence wants to vomit when reading Gothard's pseudo science and general crap.   The kids don't have much choice, it's beaten into them from day one -- or 5 months anyway.   To break free would require freedom of thought, and no cult member seems to have that unless something really dramatic happens.   Even Josh's sick perversions wasn't enough to get Anna to leave, the pressure from her fellow fundies is too great and she has really got no resources of her own - neither mental nor physical.

Their whole cult is a sick, sick waste of life masquerading as "religion" and TLC should be forced off the air for trying to represent it as anything but an insanity.

[singsingsing]

The concept that no one with an ounce of intelligence could possibly become a fundie is a comforting delusion, but a dangerous one. First, because it devalues members of the cult based on the supposition that unintelligent people are inherently less worthy and therefore not worth caring about. Second, because it's not true - intelligent people get sucked into cults all the time, but that fact disturbs us and we would prefer not to believe it. We want to believe that we and those we care about are too good to be perpetrators and too smart to be victims. Too bad reality tells a different story.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

intelligent people get sucked into cults all the time, but that fact disturbs us and we would prefer not to believe it.

Didn't we just go through this with another poster on another thread?

Destructive cults prey on people when they are at their most vulnerable and intelligence has very little to do with it.  

Any one of us could be vulnerable to a destructive cult given the right circumstances - and a cult recruiter in our face.

The people who are most vulnerable to cults are:

• Going through loss or significant change.
• Like structure.
• Like and want a sense of community.
• Are seekers for deeper meaning (that means a high IQ often).
• Are idealists and want a better world (that also means a high IQ).

That is why destructive cults tend to prey on college students and widows (or widowers) and people who are at their most most vulnerable due to life's knocks.

Destructive cults do not disclose the full insanity of their beliefs as they suck people in.  They grab recruits, knock down their self-esteem, offer a solution, isolate people from other supports,  get blackmail information, and restrict all outside information.

They are very clever about it. They have honed brainwashing techniques.

Some sociopaths self select into cults.  They don't usually last long because most "charismatic" sociopaths prefer to start their own cults.  Some sociopaths do manage to  inherit a cult (Miscavige, I'm looking at you.)

Anyone who thinks that only stupid people are vulnerable to cults - is stupid, ignorant, and in denial.  In my opinion, of course. 

@nssherlock, you have garnered an awful lot of downvotes in your mere 12 posts here.  Perhaps FJ is not the right fit for you?  

Or you are trolling.  I think that might be a better explanation.

 

 

 

[Georgiana]

Smart people do dumb shit all the time.  Steve Jobs got sucked into whatever weird diet he was on and tried to cure his cancer with fruit. Very smart man. Very dumb choice. 

Its not about how SMART you are, it's about how WHOLE you are.  People will forever seek to make themselves whole, repairing and healing from the damage the world does to us.  Some do so by directly confronting the emptiness, but that's hard.  It takes courage every single day, a willingness to change, and a commitment to continue to work and improve. 

Often, people take the easy road. They fill the hole inside themselves and push away the things they fear with something that provides them with short term escape...though it frequently includes long term damage.

Why people choose religion over food or drugs or alcohol or quack medicine is up for debate, but it's not about intelligence. It never is.

The brain suspends higher thought and focuses on baser transactions like fight or flight when in pain, and that's why people join cults and start down other risky paths: pain, damage, emptiness, escape, security. It's not hard to convert that short term absence of logic into long term addiction. 

[formergothardite]

Doctors, politicians, lawyers, successful business men all got sucked into IBLP. Some did it for the power, but many did it because cults know how to prey on people. 

The idea that only unintelligent people become fundie is the sort of false comforting idea that is exactly like the fundie idea that if you follow certain rules bad things won't happen. If might make you feel better to say that only dumb people join cults, but you are lying to yourself. 

[Rachel333]

"Nobody joins a cult. Nobody joins something they think's gonna hurt them. You join a religious organization, you join a political movement, and you join with people that you really like."

-Deborah Layton, a Jonestown survivor

[dawbs]

It's right up there with there being only certain types of women (people) who get into abusive relationships.

I remember reading an interview w/ someone who had been a domestic abuse counselor and active w/ such programs who found it really REALLY hard to get help when she was being abused, because she 'knew better".
(My baby sister is the most spirited, who I would have said was the 'least likely' of my siblings and I to put up w/ abusive BS.  But she did.  And she got out.  But, she wasn't the 'type'.  But, really, there isn't a 'type', there's just...shit that happens and how vulnerable you are to it at any given time)

I also remember watching an interview w/ soemoen who has a recruiter of HS kids for aryan nation shit.  ANd he was asked repeatedly what made a difference in which kids he could recruit...he said some kids were *easier* to recruit, but all of them were recruitable.

It is nice to think that you can completely gird yourself from susceptibility to deep shit through education and intelligence.  
Even more, I'd like to think that I could immunise my daughter against cults, against abusive assholes, against all sorts of shit.  
But I can't.  I can encourage her critical thinking to assist in looking at things hard.  I can encourage her 'whole'ness, so she isn't looking to fill gaps.
But there isn't a golden ticket.  Or I'd be buying one.

(and it's the desire for a golden ticket that sucks people in so...yeah)

[patsymae]

Two cults in one: Amish women's Bible study group:

"The book we’re using in our study is named “The Power of Success: How to Build Character in Your Life.”    The books are written by Bill Gothard and the study this time was about compassion versus indifference."http://www.amish365.com/the-amish-cook-bible-study-and-bar-bliss/

[sawasdee]

6 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Two cults in one: Amish women's Bible study group:

"The book we’re using in our study is named “The Power of Success: How to Build Character in Your Life.”    The books are written by Bill Gothard and the study this time was about compassion versus indifference."http://www.amish365.com/the-amish-cook-bible-study-and-bar-bliss/

Shitstorm - ATI + Amish - what chance do they have of making an informed decision? Talk about slanted input....

ETA As an aside , I was at a quiz tonight. One of the questions was 'Of which book is The Vulgate a version?'

We were the only team out of seven who got it right - Thanks, FJ!

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Two cults in one: Amish women's Bible study group:

That fucking Character stuff is infiltrating everywhere!  Public schools, prisons, and now even the Amish are falling for it.  

[bal maiden]

There has been quite a concerted and ongoing effort by various evangelical groups to convert Amish people over the last decade or so. They hold revivals and shit specifically targeted at Plain groups. So, alas, it doesn't surprise me that IBLP is getting in on the action. 

[Palimpsest]

@bal maiden, that is interesting.  How successful have the evangelical groups been at converting the Amish?  Do they focus on youth during Rumspringa and try to lure them away?

I don't know, I would think it would be a fairly hard road trying to convert enclosed Anabaptists.

[Incognito22]

23 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

There has been quite a concerted and ongoing effort by various evangelical groups to convert Amish people over the last decade or so. They hold revivals and shit specifically targeted at Plain groups. So, alas, it doesn't surprise me that IBLP is getting in on the action. 

This is true.  My friend is independent Baptist (aka pretty darn fundy) and she talks about how the Amish are a cult.  Meanwhile her kids don't go to public pools or the beach.

[Stormy]

I remember watching an interview with a woman who was raised in the ATI cult, and she explained the history behind it as well as who Bill Gothard was. In her words, Gothard founded the Institute of Basic Life Principles because he figured out "how to fix everybody's life". I can picture a desperate person turning to something like this to achieve some semblance of order in their life again. Essentially, Gothardism promises that if you dress a certain way, submit, and have a gaggle of children, then all your problems will go away. Didn't the Duggars go full swing only once they suffered that miscarriage?...

[singsingsing]

25 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@bal maiden, that is interesting.  How successful have the evangelical groups been at converting the Amish?  Do they focus on youth during Rumspringa and try to lure them away?

I don't know, I would think it would be a fairly hard road trying to convert enclosed Anabaptists.

They've been quite successful. From what I've seen, they're mostly converting families rather than youth, but I haven't followed it closely enough to say for sure. There's also a big evangelical movement to convert Mormons (which I'm sure has been more successful, for obvious reasons).

[2manyKidzzz]

Convert Mormons??? Wow. Mormons are evangelical, I guess, but not a cult. Right?

[Palimpsest]

59 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

They've been quite successful. From what I've seen, they're mostly converting families rather than youth, but I haven't followed it closely enough to say for sure.

Fascinating.  I'd be interested in sources if you have any.  Of course, the last thing I need is yet another rabbit hole to go down!  

[singsingsing]

Just now, Palimpsest said:

Fascinating.  I'd be interested in sources if you have any.  Of course, the last thing I need is yet another rabbit hole to go down!  

I'll try to dig up some sources tonight! What immediately comes to mind is a documentary called 'Amish: A Secret Life'. I think it was made 5 or 6 years ago. It follows an Amish family who are basically in the process of becoming evangelical, and they seem to have a large number of friends and acquaintances who are doing the same. I know it used to be on youtube, but not sure if it still is.

[Palimpsest]

Just now, singsingsing said:

I'll try to dig up some sources tonight!

Thank you so much.  I'm very interested.  So many rabbit holes and so little time.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Stormy said:

I remember watching an interview with a woman who was raised in the ATI cult, and she explained the history behind it as well as who Bill Gothard was. In her words, Gothard founded the Institute of Basic Life Principles because he figured out "how to fix everybody's life". I can picture a desperate person turning to something like this to achieve some semblance of order in their life again. Essentially, Gothardism promises that if you dress a certain way, submit, and have a gaggle of children, then all your problems will go away. Didn't the Duggars go full swing only once they suffered that miscarriage?...

From what I know, it does appear the loss of Caleb sparked their descent into the cult. Which makes sense. A miscarriage can be a very traumatic experience for a woman or a couple to deal with and it can leave you feeling very lost and vulnerable. If you've already been told that something you did is the reason it happened - as Michelle erroneously was told - then it's not too difficult to see how someone could easily be convinced to join up with a group like this. It's sick and disgusting I take advantage of someone's grief like that, but brutally effective.

 I'm curious how they first heard about IBLP specifically though. The Doctor who told them the Devil pills (aka. Birth control) caused the miscarriage? A friend? Someone they knew in passing? Did someone in their Church mention something? Did they see an ad or watch something on television?

[choralcrusader8613]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 I'm curious how they first heard about IBLP specifically though. The Doctor who told them the Devil pills (aka. Birth control) caused the miscarriage? A friend? Someone they knew in passing? Did someone in their Church mention something? Did they see an ad or watch something on television?

Well, they said in their first book that they were doing the Jim Sammons financial seminar when the kids were little. From Jim Bob:

Quote

“While we were running all these businesses, we were also attending a wonderful Sunday school class for young married couples at our church. One of the teachers was Glen Parsons, a successful businessman in our city. Glen invited fifty men from our church, including me, to come to his house every Friday morning for breakfast. Then we watched and discussed a video series Glen wanted to share with us. It was Jim Sammons’s Financial Freedom program, and it became another life-changing turning point for me.”

If this guy Glen was holding that kind of a group, he was probably in IBLP and introduced JB and Michelle to it.

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

That fucking Character stuff is infiltrating everywhere!  Public schools, prisons, and now even the Amish are falling for it.  

The city of Conway, SC used to use the fucking stuff. They didn't take all the info down off their website until very recently. 

Interesting note, the Character First program was based on the character program started by IBLP for Russia.  ATI students would teach weekly character classes to Russian school children. The Children's Institutes were started in Russia too. After kicking IBLP out for lots of reasons including abusing orphans, Russia promptly dropped the character program. But by then lots of American cities were interested, so Gothard had it adapted to be used in public schools.  

[apandaaries]

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

The city of Conway, SC used to use the fucking stuff. They didn't take all the info down off their website until very recently. 

Interesting note, the Character First program was based on the character program started by IBLP for Russia.  ATI students would teach weekly character classes to Russian school children. The Children's Institutes were started in Russia too. After kicking IBLP out for lots of reasons including abusing orphans, Russia promptly dropped the character program. But by then lots of American cities were interested, so Gothard had it adapted to be used in public schools.  

All of this infuriates me, but I am so interested about where it's being used and how much they're getting from it.  I was bummed when no media outlet dug into that during the Joshley scandals.  Suppose it takes more investigation, but I really want to know more about where they use that bullshit and which politicians are helping fund that stupid character stuff.