Dillards 28: A Walk Down Memory Lane

[Bad Wolf]

That was my understanding. She miscarried and a Christian doctor told them the pi!l had caused it. They decided to leave the number of kids up to god, all the while tracking her cycle, so she would know when she was most fertile. 

[marmalade]

She was also on the pill before she got pregnant with Josh. They don't generally give IUDs to women who haven't had children. She went back on the pill after he was born, and LO! that's the period when she miscarried. 

And yes, Gothardite Dr. Wheat told the vulnerable young couple that the pill had caused the miscarriage. 

[apandaaries]

5 minutes ago, marmalade said:

They don't generally give IUDs to women who haven't had children. 

This is changing (check out Colorado's amazing reduction of teen pregnancies by equipping sexually active young ladies with IUDs), but it was definitely true then.  IUDs were far out of favor during the time of MEchelle's early years. All those issues in the 70s were extremely troubling.  With a lot of testing and work, they've created new IUDs that are far superior to what was used in our (US) fairly recent past.  But when MEchelle was first beginning to breed, the pill or diaphragm would have been options likely offered to her.  She's repeatedly stated that she was on the pill, and was lead to believe by a shady doctor following Gothard-doctrine (not science), that the pill caused her miscarriage. This guilt, coupled with grief, seems to have led them to fully embrace the teachings of Gothard.  

[VelociRapture]

Just to jump back in:

https://www.google.com/amp/people.com/babies/duggar-miscarriage-michelle-duggar-speaks-exclusively-to-people/amp/

"This was their second miscarriage; Michelle lost her baby during her second pregnancy. She was taking oral birth control at the time and cites this as one reason the couple together decided to leave the number of children they have "up to God.""

9 hours ago, amandaaries said:

This is changing (check out Colorado's amazing reduction of teen pregnancies by equipping sexually active young ladies with IUDs), but it was definitely true then.  IUDs were far out of favor during the time of MEchelle's early years. All those issues in the 70s were extremely troubling.  With a lot of testing and work, they've created new IUDs that are far superior to what was used in our (US) fairly recent past.  But when MEchelle was first beginning to breed, the pill or diaphragm would have been options likely offered to her.  She's repeatedly stated that she was on the pill, and was lead to believe by a shady doctor following Gothard-doctrine (not science), that the pill caused her miscarriage. This guilt, coupled with grief, seems to have led them to fully embrace the teachings of Gothard.  

It makes me really angry on their behalf that a Doctor took advantage of them like this. Regardless of what anyone else thinks about mourning an early loss, they were grieving. On top of that, they were uninformed about the facts regarding birth control and turned to a medical professional for help. The fact that this predatory Doctor used his position of power to capitalize on their grief and ignorance is infuriating. I mean, imagine what their lives could have been had they seen a different Doctor who explained that the miscarriage wasn't her fault...

[ivyalba]

10 hours ago, amandaaries said:

This is changing (check out Colorado's amazing reduction of teen pregnancies by equipping sexually active young ladies with IUDs), but it was definitely true then.  IUDs were far out of favor during the time of MEchelle's early years. All those issues in the 70s were extremely troubling.  With a lot of testing and work, they've created new IUDs that are far superior to what was used in our (US) fairly recent past.  But when MEchelle was first beginning to breed, the pill or diaphragm would have been options likely offered to her.  She's repeatedly stated that she was on the pill, and was lead to believe by a shady doctor following Gothard-doctrine (not science), that the pill caused her miscarriage. This guilt, coupled with grief, seems to have led them to fully embrace the teachings of Gothard.  

Definitely this is changing, and I've done enough lurking to know that this has been talked about on other threads, but the vast majority of the side effects/problems with IUDs were with the 'primitive', non-hormonal ones. The Skyla is actually for females who have NOT had children. I have it and love it and I know sometimes they just don't work out for some females for whatever reason, but I hope they become offered and accepted more by teenagers and sexually active females in the future!

It really is too bad that a doctor put the reason for the miscarriage solely on the pill because while that may have contributed, there are a fair amount of cases of females who routinely take their OCPs and pop out a baby, not knowing they were pregnant. I guess putting the cause on an object instead of two grieving individuals may help, but I would argue it didn't help their future (now current) offspring.

[Carm_88]

This makes me so sad that a doctor, one who vowed to do no harm, harmed this young grieving couple. Michelle and JB were different then and I feel so bad for them. Also can I add that I'm a baby of the pill, born the same year as Smugger, I wasn't miscarried. I was a shock but I stayed put.  

[imokit]

Re IUDs and people who haven't had children.  There's a practical reason for people's reluctance to do them. The cervix changes if you get pregnant even if you have a miscarriage or abortion (but most if you deliver a baby).  Putting them through a closed cervix which has never opened at all can be a bitch and is more painful and less well tolerated. I know a lot of doctors who won't do it for this reason and I've seen someone come very close to fainting in the procedure. Implanon/nexplanon is similar in principal (long acting reversible contraception) but goes in the arm and lasts 3/4 years it tends to be recommended in people who haven't been pregnant over the IUD/IUS, for that reason.

[Stormy]

Did Michelle get pregnant on the pill? Or did the second pregnancy occur because she'd purposefully stopped taking it? That'd be way more insidious if the doctor claimed the Duggars miscarried as a result of using birth control at any point, period.

Fair warning, this is just a re-telling of what I've been told, so I don't know how it'd apply to someone else: My cousin got pregnant very soon after having her IUD removed and wound up having a miscarriage. After the fact. she admitted that the doctor had warned her against getting pregnant too quickly after the removal, and she either didn't listen or got pregnant to soon accidentally (it was a wanted pregnancy). I'm guessing it was a hormonal IUD, because she was told that the fact that her body hadn't adjusted back to normal is what caused the miscarriage. From my understanding, her doctor didn't engage in shame tactics or try and talk my cousin out of using birth control ever again, but informed her that the pregnancy had failed for mechanical reasons -- not spiritual failings.

[Bad Wolf]

What kind if God punishes you with a miscarriage for using birth control? As our priest often says, we need to fire that God. They weren't using birth control with Jubilee. Not snarking at the miscarriages, because that is really hard to lose a wanted baby. Their thinking makes me crazy.

[singsingsing]

@Stormy I believe the story was that Michelle got pregnant while on the pill, and then miscarried. No idea if she was taking it perfectly or if she was missing doses.

I wonder what they think about something like a luteal phase defect. I know a lot of them track their cycles. If they have a luteal phase defect, they could be having "miscarriages" multiple times a year. So are they committing manslaughter if they continue having unprotected sex? Should they be forced to abstain until/if they can lengthen their luteal phase? Or is it okay because it's a natural occurrence and God obviously wasn't fussed if those particular fertilized eggs perished?

[lomo6]

3 hours ago, imokit said:

Re IUDs and people who haven't had children.  There's a practical reason for people's reluctance to do them. The cervix changes if you get pregnant even if you have a miscarriage or abortion (but most if you deliver a baby).  Putting them through a closed cervix which has never opened at all can be a bitch and is more painful and less well tolerated. I know a lot of doctors who won't do it for this reason and I've seen someone come very close to fainting in the procedure. Implanon/nexplanon is similar in principal (long acting reversible contraception) but goes in the arm and lasts 3/4 years it tends to be recommended in people who haven't been pregnant over the IUD/IUS, for that reason.

I think doctors' recommendations have changed a lot in recent years. I'm not sure about the pain thing as I've never gotten an IUD myself. But at my last appointment, my ob/gyn was pushing hard for me to get an IUD over my preferred hormonal BC because it's so much more foolproof. I left with a couple of brochures. The significant reduction of teen pregnancies in recent years has also been attributed to the widespread use of IUDs in young people these days. 

ETA: I'm in my 20s and never been pregnant, for context.

[Pasta]

So J&D did a better job of wishing Israel a happy birthday than the duggar grandparents ever did. I'll give em' that.  I wonder if that will continue. 

[Carm_88]

47 minutes ago, Pasta said:

So J&D did a better job of wishing Israel a happy birthday than the duggar grandparents ever did. I'll give em' that.  I wonder if that will continue. 

I'm sure Josh had decent second birthday wishes as well. Even with the twins, now Jordyn, that's a different thing. 

[December]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

@Stormy I believe the story was that Michelle got pregnant while on the pill, and then miscarried. No idea if she was taking it perfectly or if she was missing doses.

 

Yeah, I think that was the story and I don't believe they specified if it happened with perfect usage. If she wasn't properly informed about the correct way to take a specific type of BC (some pills I believe have to be taken around the same hour every day, etc.), I'd imagine that would also make BC look less effective in their eyes, too. 

6 hours ago, imokit said:

Re IUDs and people who haven't had children.  There's a practical reason for people's reluctance to do them. The cervix changes if you get pregnant even if you have a miscarriage or abortion (but most if you deliver a baby).  

 

Attitudes are definitely changing about IUDs (and other LARC too like you mention) though. There are multiple types on the market now, some of which are specifically aimed at women who haven't had children (so they are smaller), and more doctors are learning how to place them in general. 

[patsymae]

Relying on others--I don't have cable. Are the Dullards back "in the field?" 

 

Never mind, found their blog and answered my own question. And now, just to vent on the outraged already expressed:

"We have already been there a couple times and were able to meet up with a lady and her husband who continue the ministry even when we are out of the country." Really? They can do that?

"She recently hurt her knee in a bus accident, so the last couple weeks we were there, she wasn’t teaching her regular classes." Did you care about how she hurt her knee, how she was doing, did she need any actual help from you? No, just you nitwits had to carry on while someone was hurt and suffering.

[Teenage girl] started having seizures and during one of these recent episodes she fell and hit her head on a rock and died. Most people say she died of a broken heart. [What most people? you don't speak Spanish]. It was a sad moment for the village. Praise the Lord though, that as a result of the ongoing work in this village [by us], this girl had prayed to receive Jesus into her heart at the end of 2016."

Where is the vomit emoji?

"I know these girls have heard the gospel before, but when I asked them specific questions about what it meant, they couldn’t answer. I left them with a gospel tract and told them when we come back we can talk further." Because unlike generations upon generations of theologians, I am the person who can explain to them (in English) the meaning of the gospel.

 

"We ended up running into this family and were able to give them a ride home. They have 3 little children and the wife’s sister and her baby live with them, as well. The sister has a brain tumor and will be undergoing surgery at the end of the month. During our last term here, I regularly met for Bible studies with these ladies and their little ones along with the pastor’s wife."

Perhaps the $24,000 you want for a couple of months of  "ministry" could go a long way toward her medical care and help her get treatment, and/or help her family if she is lucky enough to get treatment.

Early last week, Derick participated in a basketball tournament with guys from the local town, after meeting up with them in the square earlier in the week. He met one guy named, Marvin who speaks a little English and enjoys practicing it with Derick while they play basketball together. Last time we were here he found this was a good way to connect with guys in the area. He looks forward to continuing to build relationships connecting with them." Because basketball is the sport of choice in dangerous SA and people there name their children "Marvin."

"This situation was a little scary, but thankfully she ended up being fine. The health director said it was likely due to all the dust and dirt on the road right now from it being the dry season." Because if a Christian health director hadn't mentioned it we would never have noticed/cared that it's the dry season and the people here are affected by it.

"while Papi (Derick) played basketball with some of the guys. We ended the evening with a yummy pupusa dinner at home." Okay, we're natives-- if Israel calls Derick "Paps" I'll eat my half-finished piñata. And if either of the Dullards actually made pupusas at home I'll eat the other half.

"Derick is continuing to preach weekly, and we have had several “divine appointments” with people where we have been able to share the gospel and pass out tracts as we go about life and ministry here in Central America." WTF is a "divine appointment?" Can't anybody stand on a street corner or knock on doors and pass out tracts?"

OK I'm sure this has all been said before but geez I just can't help myself.

[Stormy]

6 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Relying on others--I don't have cable. Are the Dullards back "in the field?" 

Yeah, they've been back in El Salvador for the past few months, only this time Jill's pregnant! They're expected to fly back in time to deliver the baby. Not that anything could possibly go wrong.

[Incognito22]

They've always said pill on the show.

[patsymae]

2 hours ago, Stormy said:

Yeah, they've been back in El Salvador for the past few months, only this time Jill's pregnant! They're expected to fly back in time to deliver the baby. Not that anything could possibly go wrong.

Thanks. And then I looked it up and just posted a really long rant.

[BadMammaJana]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

Early last week, Derick participated in a basketball tournament with guys from the local town, after meeting up with them in the square earlier in the week. He met one guy named, Marvin who speaks a little English and enjoys practicing it with Derick while they play basketball together. Last time we were here he found this was a good way to connect with guys in the area. He looks forward to continuing to build relationships connecting with them." Because basketball is the sport of choice in dangerous SA and people there name their children "Marvin."

I've met quite a few Latin Americans who have very Anglo names like Walter, Milton, Edwin, Wendy, Brenda, etc. They range in age from young to old, and I'll be honest, as a Mexican American, even I was pretty surprised that their names were so Anglo. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they really did meet a Central American named Marvin. Given that they seem to be pretty xenophobic, I also wouldn't be surprised if Marvin was a fellow gringo.

Anyway, people there in Central America really do pick names like Marvin sometimes. 

[nastyhobbitses]

10 hours ago, imokit said:

Re IUDs and people who haven't had children.  There's a practical reason for people's reluctance to do them. The cervix changes if you get pregnant even if you have a miscarriage or abortion (but most if you deliver a baby).  Putting them through a closed cervix which has never opened at all can be a bitch and is more painful and less well tolerated. I know a lot of doctors who won't do it for this reason and I've seen someone come very close to fainting in the procedure. Implanon/nexplanon is similar in principal (long acting reversible contraception) but goes in the arm and lasts 3/4 years it tends to be recommended in people who haven't been pregnant over the IUD/IUS, for that reason.

I've never been pregnant and had my IUD inserted just about two years ago. Hurt like a sonofabitch, especially because my uterus is apparently so weirdly positioned that my OB/GYN had to use ultrasound to guide it in. But I'll take a few days of discomfort for two years and counting of no periods and no babies.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

3 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I've never been pregnant and had my IUD inserted just about two years ago. Hurt like a sonofabitch, especially because my uterus is apparently so weirdly positioned that my OB/GYN had to use ultrasound to guide it in. But I'll take a few days of discomfort for two years and counting of no periods and no babies.

Yeah, I really hope that doctors aren't trying to push people away from the IUD because of concerns about insertion. I have one and know lots of others who do, and I would say the level of pain and discomfort is basically comparable to, say, what you might expect at the dentist's office. If you have to get your tooth worked on it might be pretty painful for a minute, and it might be sore the next day. Some people have major anxiety about the dentist. Yet no professional would ever say "are you sure you want to have your cavities drilled? It might hurt!" But for some reason you can't talk about the single most effective and convenient birth control option-- something that really changed my life for the better-- without a bunch of hand-wringing about the fact that yes, sometimes medical procedures can be unpleasant. I think it speaks to the fact that birth control still isn't taken seriously as a necessary and routine part of health care.

[Karma]

I have a mirena and it wasn't enjoyable having it put in, but I've loved having no periods.  Despite being 50 my blood tests show no menopause happening, so I'm booked in for a replacement in a couple of weeks.  My 20yo daughter can't take the pill or have the implant for medical reasons (osteopenia) so her endocrinologist recommended the mirena.  She had it inserted a month ago under a light general anaesthetic on the gynaecologist's advice.  The gyno said it has become increasingly popular for younger women since they have been improved in recent years, decreasing the risk of infection leading to possible infertility.

[PainfullyAware]

Just to provide a counterpoint, I had the mirena put in several years ago and it was one of the most painful experiences of my life (I was in my early 20s with no pregnancies). Six weeks later I started experiencing insomnia, followed by depression, and more yeast infections than I'd ever had before. It balanced out after about six months but in that time Drs assured me it could not possibly be the mirena, despite the fact that it lists those side effects on the insert. I finally had it removed regardless. When I tried another progesterone based contraception and developed insomnia, it confirmed for me that this was the cause of my earlier symptoms. 

I have two dear friends who have developed a chronic pain condition called vulvodynia (painful vulva which makes sex, tight jeans, bike riding, etc. impossible and treatments are limited). Their specialists (who they eventually found after many useless referrals) said that they believe this is a rare complication of hormonal birth control in some women. Awareness about this condition is quite low, as well as its links as a potential consequence of the pill.

I'm saying all this not because I am anti-birth control or that I don't recognize how it has enabled many women to have greater options in their lives and decisions about their bodies. But I do sincerely wish that doctors would not discuss the pill, IUD, implant, ring, patch, etca. as if they were perfectly harmless with their patients. These options are drugs just like other prescriptions, and have significant risks that accompany them. When I become a parent, I think I will advocate for the lowly condom as a perfectly good option! 

[just_ordinary]

 Not to forget that condoms are still the best way to avoid STDs

[ivyalba]

My boyfriend (who is in the medical field, as am I) has said that if we end up having any girls, he is going to make them get an IUD. In theory, I think it's a good idea because it is effective birth control. However, I have time and time again told him that even though she is a teen, it will be her body! The IUDs do hurt going in and occasionally I get a bad cramp right before my period so she'd have that to think about. Like just_ordinary said, condoms are the best for STDs and I can totally see teenagers forgetting about STDs if they know they have a very slim chance of getting pregnant. Plus, as with any birth control, they don't always work- I think in a fair amount of females, you are supposed to completely stop your period. Mine hasn't, but for the first time in my life, it is predictable! My gynecologist seemed upset I was still getting my period but gosh it is so wonderful to know when I'm going to start bleeding so I can pull out the period underwear!