Tabitha Paine & Tim Robertson Engagement (includes sexual assault discussion)

[usedbicycle]

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

Here's a Q for people with experience of the culture:

I can see how having a "good" conversion story is valued, but does it always go that the more outrageous the sins, the better they appear?  I know FJers have said before about the pressure to have a "good" sin to be born again from, especially for people born into the culture (so Jinger talking about what an evil sinner she was as a young teen etc) - but are there lines that can't be crossed? 

Robertson is denying responsibility for his crime, of course, and trying to paint it as mutual sin, but if he took the path of "I was a rapist but Jesus Christ saved me - I deeply regret the pain I caused to my victim, but I'm grateful even a terrible sinner like I was can be forgiven", would he be accepted in the same way? 

About the denying responsibility part, blaming women/unbelievers/Satan for falling into sin is pretty much standard in men's testimonies. You'll be warned a lot about going with the "wrong crowd", because of course it's other peoples fault if you do stupid things. 

I have an anecdote about that. After I left the faith, I worked at a bar for a while and liked to party. One day I was contacted by 2 guys who had gone to my church and were travelling through my city. They seemed friendly and open-minded enough that I reluctantly agreed to host them at my apartment over the weekend. I had warned my friends that these were sheltered, religious boys and everyone kind of tiptoed around them. But soon after, they were pouring themselves drinks and begging my friends to try some drugs we had. We were all a little shocked by this and no one egged them on, but we did share what we had. One of the guys ended up sleeping with my roommate. In the morning, she came to me, really uncomfortable, and told me that she woke up at some point feeling pain, and his fingers were inside of her. I kicked them out immediately and apologized a million times to my friend, saying I should have known better.

They never spoke to me again (or my roommate). I learned later that they went around telling my old church circle how lost I was, leading a lifestyle of fornication and drugs. They both ended up marrying girls from our church, and the hypocrisy makes me gag when I see photos of their happy families on facebook. 

In their minds, a sin is a sin so if you're drinking, you might as well be fornicating. And if a girl agrees to fornicate, you might as well molest her while you're at it. What's the difference, it's all sin. And when Jesus saves you, the best thing to do is cut off all ties with the people you sinned with, because being saved is about saving YOUR ass, not anyone you hurt. 

[Queen]

This has been said many times already, but it needs to be said until every assulter is convicted and every victim gets the help they need; 

The Gothard/IBLP/ATI movement ACTIVELY protects and encourages sexual predators, while they suppress and harrass the victim. This is a culture where it is seen as normal that men prey on women and girls, and that the latter are to blame for the crime comitted against them.

[LMDinHarlem]

Hello FreeJinger friends, I rarely post but I've been a member for ages - I confess I skimmed pages 8-14, so maybe someone has posted a similar statement on one of those pages, please forgive me if I'm reiterating something someone else has covered. Reading all of the assumptions and various posters' reactions to the assumptions on this particular thread has made me so uncomfortable that I couldn't stay quiet. Let me state up front, I do not condone sexual violence, or Christian Fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism, come to think of it.) I do not believe that any amount of perceived divine love or intervention can change the inherent nature of an actual sexual predator, and I don't consider sex workers to be second class citizens.

Now that I have made all of those disclaimers, which I very much hope you'll keep in mind, here's my two cents: We actually have no idea what the facts of this situation are. For all we know this guy could be telling the absolute truth about the whole thing.

It feels wrong for us to be vilifying him in this way - I probably wouldn't like him if I met him, I'm not saying I think he's a good guy - and I have strong reservations about his match with Tabitha P., but what I AM saying is that we shouldn't be doing this, because we have no way of ever getting enough information about this situation to judge it fairly. 

[Jencendiary]

17 minutes ago, LMDinHarlem said:

Hello FreeJinger friends, I rarely post but I've been a member for ages - I confess I skimmed pages 8-14, so maybe someone has posted a similar statement on one of those pages, please forgive me if I'm reiterating something someone else has covered. Reading all of the assumptions and various posters' reactions to the assumptions on this particular thread has made me so uncomfortable that I couldn't stay quiet. Let me state up front, I do not condone sexual violence, or Christian Fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism, come to think of it.) I do not believe that any amount of perceived divine love or intervention can change the inherent nature of an actual sexual predator, and I don't consider sex workers to be second class citizens.

Now that I have made all of those disclaimers, which I very much hope you'll keep in mind, here's my two cents: We actually have no idea what the facts of this situation are. For all we know this guy could be telling the absolute truth about the whole thing.

It feels wrong for us to be vilifying him in this way - I probably wouldn't like him if I met him, I'm not saying I think he's a good guy - and I have strong reservations about his match with Tabitha P., but what I AM saying is that we shouldn't be doing this, because we have no way of ever getting enough information about this situation to judge it fairly. 

 

Yeah, no. This is the meat of what FJ DOES, and has since the olden days. We shine the light into the corners where the cockroaches are. (And we snark. But that's whistling past the graveyard because Christian Patriarchy is a laugh-or-cry proposition.)

The facts on record are that he raped a woman by force. He laid down on top of her and penetrated her anus without her consent. He allocuted to this in court. He has shown no meaningful repentance or understanding as to why this is wrong. And he is now going to take possession (don't get it twisted, that is what marriages in this community are. he is taking possession of her as he would a truck or a horse) of a young woman who has been kept intentionally sheltered from education or resources she could use to one day leave. He and his community will forbid her use of contraception, and keep her pregnant and ignorant until her body just says NO MORE.

This man could be breeding his own next victims. His wife most certainly will be one, because the business of Christian Patriarchy is the business of making the victimization of women into a religious duty.

[K'Z'K]

26 minutes ago, LMDinHarlem said:

For all we know this guy could be telling the absolute truth about the whole thing.

That's about as likely as D. Trump turning out to be a great guy.

If it was really just drunken-bad-idea sex, there'd have been no police report, no charges, and no conviction.

[Jencendiary]

1 minute ago, KZK said:

That's about as likely as D. Trump turning out to be a great guy.

If it was really just drunken-bad-idea sex, there'd have been no police report, no charges, and no conviction.

Especially considering the low opinion of law enforcement and prosecution towards women who work in the sex industry as witnesses.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, LMDinHarlem said:

Now that I have made all of those disclaimers, which I very much hope you'll keep in mind, here's my two cents: We actually have no idea what the facts of this situation are. For all we know this guy could be telling the absolute truth about the whole thing.

It feels wrong for us to be vilifying him in this way - I probably wouldn't like him if I met him, I'm not saying I think he's a good guy - and I have strong reservations about his match with Tabitha P., but what I AM saying is that we shouldn't be doing this, because we have no way of ever getting enough information about this situation to judge it fairly. 

The guy literally plead guilty to the sexual assault we're talking about.  I don't understand why you are suggesting that his later weasel worded 'testimony' could be the absolute truth, and his declaration in a court of law was a lie.   One is a facebook post years after the fact, the other is a sworn statement in a court of law.  

THIS is one of the reasons rape is so hard to convict - people bending over backwards to forgive, or excuse, a man who sexually abuses women.  Every time someone suggests we must give him the benefit of the doubt, they're saying, in effect, "the victim must be lying".

As I, and others, have said before: convicting for these crimes is really difficult, and was harder 18 years ago, so if his lawyer was suggesting he plead guilty, there had to be overwhelming evidence against him.  But it doesn't matter - he plead guilty.  I genuinely don't understand what other information we could need here.

[lawfulevil]

It's technically possible. It's also technically possible that I'll win the Powerball tomorrow. Let's put it this way- I'm not going to make any large purchases, and I wouldn't drink a drop within 5 miles of this guy.

So I've got a question. If you genuinely believe that we need to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, when the situation is (mathematically and BY HIS OWN WORDS) pretty clear... how do you ever make any decisions in real life? I consider myself reasonably intelligent, I'm as cynical as the next person who's been screwed a time or two, and I still get suckered once in awhile. Are you just easy meat for every Amway rep and buy-here-pay-here car dealership?

I'm just asking because I have a fantastic piece of beachfront property in Manhattan, KS...

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Forgive me if this had already been discussed as I've only skimmed this thread.

Tim R. is 46 presumably never married.  Isn't that sending up red flags in Fundie Land?  That's old in their world for a guy to still be single.  Aren't they curious why he never married?  Fundie men his age are grandfathers -- looking right at JB.

He committed rape as an adult, nearly 30, so no excusing this as being a stupid drunk teen with his teenage girlfriend.   So, other than he was drunk and she was a stripper and yeah, things happened he has no excuse?  

So -- a 46 year old, never married,, self confessed rapist, who committed anal rape as an adult is an A-OK fiance because ...... I can't even think of a reason this would be OK to anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Free Tabitha -- Run Tabitha, run.

[singsingsing]

I'm going to come out of lurkerdom to say this, because for some reason I feel compelled to, and what the hey, life's too short to not have a good rant on an internet forum now and then, right? 

This is partly from my experience working in the criminal justice system and reading thousands of sexual assault reports and court cases.

Yes, unfortunately false accusations happen. People do take plea deals because they're afraid of jail, or for various other reasons. For everyone's sake, especially Tabitha's, I really, really hope that Tim is telling the truth: that he engaged in consensual sex with a woman who had a boyfriend, who then falsely accused him of assault, that he pleaded guilty to avoid a jail sentence, and that he has since reformed his shitty ways and will henceforth be a model citizen, husband, and (I'm sure eventually) father.

How likely is that? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............

Sexual assault is notoriously difficult to prove. The sad reality is that for every one false accusation, there are probably a hundred actual victims (not a real statistic, but you get the picture) who never get justice. Either the crime is never reported, or there's not enough evidence to bring it to trial, or the evidence simply doesn't support a conviction once it's brought to trial.

So in Tim's case, he was reported. It went to trial (correct me if I'm wrong, please - I'm not overly familiar with the American justice system), he was advised to take a plea deal, he confessed, he was convicted, and he was put on the sex offender registry. None of us are privy to the details of this case, but the facts kiiiind of start to add up. If you come home from a vacation with your husband, and your house is trashed, there are beer bottles everywhere, puke in the kitchen sink and the garage smells like marijuana, and your teenage son tells you that he was at his friend's house all weekend and some strangers must have broken into the house and used it to party - like, it's possible he's telling the truth. It is possible, and weirder things have happened. But what's more likely?

You know what I think probably happened? Tim and this woman were hanging out. Partying, drinking, whatever. They're both drunk. She passes out. Tim penetrates her without her consent. Either she wakes up, or her boyfriend catches him in the act, or both. Tim didn't consider what he did an assault because, like, dude, they were just having fun. Maybe they'd hooked up before. They were both drunk, and you can't control yourself when you're drunk, amirite? Besides, she's a slut, and it's not like you can really assault a slut, right?

Anyway, what the fuck is wrong with these people? And by 'these people' I mean ATI and their ilk. Here we go, yet again, with a sex scandal. And not just a sex scandal, no, of course it's sexual assault. We've got a young, sheltered, probably extremely naive woman without any skills or education she could use to support herself, being married off to an older, MUCH more experienced man with a very shady past, who she will be expected to serve and submit to in all things.

So he's reformed. Mmmhmm. Really? I read his Facebook post about his journey from drunken debauchery to Jesus. Really nice. Except it was all about him. How sad this situation is making him. How scared of going to jail he was. How he fell into sin, and his harlot roommate contributed to his fall. How Jesus made him realize he was a sinner, and now, gosh darnit! he's a super swell guy, and he's so happy he's being rewarded with a sweet fundie maiden. Um, what about the woman you debased (even if you honest to God didn't rape her, based on your own beliefs you led her into grievous sin)? Or her boyfriend, whose trust you betrayed? Or the other people in your life and in the community who were doubtless hurt by your apparent life of debauchery?

I saw no contrition at all. Only a 'woe is me' defensive screed. Isn't that always how it goes? When they 'come to Jesus' it's not because they're actually sorry, it's because whatever they're doing isn't working for them anymore, and they're getting something better out of fundamentalist Christianity. The realization of their own sin doesn't lead to actual self-reflection, (healthy) shame, and a drive to make amends for their wrongs, it leads to a fear of hell, and then a relief and smug assurance that they've clicked the right Jesus boxes, are safe from eternal damnation, and are now part of the special in-group. They get pats on the back and a sweet, virginal, trusting girl as a reward. It's all about Tim and his own journey and his own salvation. Big surprise.

Let me tell you something: most people are never accused of sexual assault. Really! Most men manage to get through life without being accused of raping a woman, groping their sisters, sexually harassing their interns, abusing their nannies, or molesting children. So why is it that every time I turn my head, yet another fundie man is committing sexual assault? How can these people possibly dare to lecture the rest of society about their evil, sinful, lustful ways, when their own religious system seems to attract and produce sexual deviants at a truly alarming rate? 

I will give fundies one thing: they are extremely, undeniably successful at being total, flaming hypocrites.

Hope you all enjoyed my novel, and have a wonderful day.

[Fluffy14]

Freejinger admin I am sorry I messed up and posted that thing I shouldn"t . So here goes in a paraphrase.....a woman is having a conversation with someone who "knew Tim back then".  She says this: "  unless you were married to him , no one knows him better than I do" alluding to the fact she either was married to him or in a serious relationship to him. My friend, was shocked the person she hunted down was possibly his  ex wife. Or common law. The point is she said " leave the man alone , He paid for what he did."  she then goes onto say how " he is forgiven now because he wants to be"    I am sorry  admin. I hope this is okay. I don't wanna get in more trouble. 

[ViolaSebastian]

He'll be forgiven when his victim, her friends, and her family forgives. She's the only one whose forgiveness matters in this mess. 

[AmazonGrace]

I believe people can change and turn their life around and not be abusers anymore .

However, I don't see it happening to Tim anytime soon, because change requires genuine repentance, taking responsibility and being sorry for what he did and people he hurt. His confession or testimonial or whatever you wanna call it didn't contain regret for the victim, just regret that he got in trouble and a lot of reasons why it was somebody else's fault. 

[Carm_88]

Tim can't even admit that he was wrong. How can that show change? It doesn't, it shows victim blaming. That poor woman was assaulted by this pig, who is an awful human being. He can't even be bothered to say "Yeah, I made a mistake." No it's she lied because she didn't want her boyfriend to know. Fuck that. 

[Coconut Flan]

True repentance and reparation are not in the fundie vocabulary and especially not in Tim's. 

[Jencendiary]

3 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

Freejinger admin I am sorry I messed up and posted that thing I shouldn"t . So here goes in a paraphrase.....a woman is having a conversation with someone who "knew Tim back then".  She says this: "  unless you were married to him , no one knows him better than I do" alluding to the fact she either was married to him or in a serious relationship to him. My friend, was shocked the person she hunted down was possibly his  ex wife. Or common law. The point is she said " leave the man alone , He paid for what he did."  she then goes onto say how " he is forgiven now because he wants to be"    I am sorry  admin. I hope this is okay. I don't wanna get in more trouble. 

I'm not as forgiving as the ATI god. I'm also not as arbitrary in giving that forgiveness, so it evens out. I don't have to think well of Tim Robertson. I'm not required by law, and not required by any fundamental religious belief.

[16strong]

Erin Paine responded to a commenter on her latest IG photo. She thanked them sincerely for their concern, but let them know that she doesn't have anything to do with Tabitha's decisions, and to please express their concerns on Tabitha's page instead.

[ClaraOswin]

13 minutes ago, 16strong said:

Erin Paine responded to a commenter on her latest IG photo. She thanked them sincerely for their concern, but let them know that she doesn't have anything to do with Tabitha's decisions, and to please express their concerns on Tabitha's page instead.

Does Tabitha have an Instagram account?

[GoneDownTheRabbitHole]

"please post on her page, I really don't have anything to do with her decisions! Thank you! 

and thank you very much for your concern. It is appreciated! :)"

 

That's what she wrote on her latest Insta. It's a bit like when she said they weren't affiliated with ATI or Gothard anymore. It gives you small hope they're moving away from this toxic culture, even though you know it isn't true!

[AmazonGrace]

33 minutes ago, Jencendiary said:

I'm not as forgiving as the ATI god. I'm also not as arbitrary in giving that forgiveness, so it evens out. I don't have to think well of Tim Robertson. I'm not required by law, and not required by any fundamental religious belief.

And even if he's forgiven by some god or by people who feel better when forgiving rapists, it doesn't mean it's a good idea for anyone to marry a rapist... You don't rape people accidentally, or because you were stupid,  It says some things about a man's character.

[tabitha2]

The only persons that are capable of forgiveness Or need be concerned with his forgiveness or lack of are his victim(s) if they so choose and God. No one else  is obliged whatsoever to think or speak  any good of him.

 

 

 

[Four is Enough]

My VERY favorite part of TR's "testimony" was how "God took me off the sex offender registry"..... so much so that I think it should be a thread count title.

[Carm_88]

8 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

My VERY favorite part of TR's "testimony" was how "God took me off the sex offender registry"..... so much so that I think it should be a thread count title.

It should be! 

[loveformusic]

Forgive me if it may seem like I'm just rambling (okay, I probably am - it happens. alot.  )

As someone who's maybe a little younger than most people here (24) but who's gone to a religious school for most of her life (not catholic, but Jewish - yet surprisingly not too different) and has classmates the same age who have all gotten married a year or two right after high school graduation - I think to myself, sometimes, if I'll ever find that *special someone* one day (gone on plenty of dates, but alas...) and for the most part I know I will, since everyone's got a match in life. However, what reassures me is that I (and all other non religious/fundie people) actually have a choice in what we want to do with our lives, along with WHO we want to spend it with. Unfortunately, Tabitha Paine does not have that choice. She could have one if she really wanted to, but the chance of that actually happening...not a huge one. Point is, because she's got no choice and everyone's stuck inside this crazy cult & knows no different, this is what the outcome is - to be marrying someone with such a troubling history who won't even take full responsibility for his actions.

I read that FB post of his & god didn't literally MAKE him start drinking, partying, etc.. he chose to do it & he did it! Plain and simple. Yet, poor guy didn't want to go to jail so he plead guilty & got pardoned (even though he's been falsely accused...okay ) So now all's forgiven? SMH. This is why no woman or man should be arranged, forced, or feel like they are settling to be with someone. You deserve so much better! If only these fundies knew there was a whole world out there & that they could just easily make their own decisions, live their own lives and make decisions/judgements for themselves ...it's just really, really sad. I wish the best for Tabitha and for this marriage, but this whole situation is just so unfortunate.

[uber frau]

4 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

It says some things about a man's character.

For an organisation hung up on  'character training', IBLP/ATI accepts a lot of seriously fucked up ones.