Seewalds 13 - Baby Still Baking

[ViolaSebastian]

51 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

[respectfully snipped to snark on Jessa] 

18th century? Oh, honey...

[Stormy]

14 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

18th century? Oh, honey...

Easy enough mistake, but...oh, honey.

[apandaaries]

4 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don't mean to drift off topic, but I beg to differ. I learned in my college Anthropology class that childbirth is most certainly not a "natural" bodily function. There is an ongoing evolutionary struggle between head size vs ability to fit through the vagina. Basically humans have evolved to have such large brains that it is no longer an easy fit, nor is it "safe" by any means! Also, compared to other mammals, human babies are born "half ready" due to the size battle. If it's not a medical process, why do such a huge number of women need episiotomies, or either tear horrifically? Sorry to rant but this line of thought really gets my goat. 

If anyone wants to dispute me please consult a textbook first. 

I think the area of concern here is a false conflation between "natural" and "safe."  Giving birth is natural, but so is getting a fistula as a result.  Natural doesn't mean safe -- natural includes hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, abscesses, poison berries masquerading as safe ones, etc.  

There is absolutely an evolutionary process to human beings and it is ongoing.  That is why the first three months outside of the womb are sometimes referred to as the fourth trimester -- the baby and its brain are still developing in major ways, and it's why our babies can't just get up and run, like a foal can.  Our babies require an insanely high level of care. But that is still natural.  Not the safest way to develop, but still natural.  

"Nature, red in tooth and claw," is a description of real nature -- bloody, violent, and certainly not dedicated to all of the species dying of old age (my thanks to Lord Tennyson for the quote).  Sanitized, Hallmark-style nature isn't real. Childbirth, hemorrhoids, fistulas, painful, drawn-out death by disease without medications to ease the suffering -- all of these are natural, but being natural doesn't make anything safe.  

[FloraKitty35]

1 hour ago, BabyBottlePop said:

My mom named my brother after her father. Two months later, my dad's sister had her son-- and gave him the same name. 

It's not a rare name but not super common either. My mom was ticked off. 

Jessa commented to someone about Spurgeon's name. Looks like she's toeing the party line about the name being awesome. 

Spurgeon lived in the 19th century, SOTDRT strikes again.  

[VeganCupcake]

5 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don't mean to drift off topic, but I beg to differ. I learned in my college Anthropology class that childbirth is most certainly not a "natural" bodily function. 

^^Ok I worded that wrong, yes it's technically "natural." I was just trying to say that all the mumbo jumbo you read in pro home-birth books like "your body is perfectly designed for childbirth" is totally false. Some other posters made some good clarifications. 

Anyway LMAO at Jessa's "18th century" comment, these people are not very bright. It's pretty scary how many obsessed stans they have. 

[nausicaa]

47 minutes ago, Stormy said:

Easy enough mistake, but...oh, honey.

Maybe I'm just being a super snob, but it's kind of shocking to me that an adult wouldn't know that the 18th century refers to the 1700s. That was some super shitty Duggar homeschooling. 

When I read Jessa's comment, my first thought was "Huh, I thought Spurgeon lived in the 1800s. Guess I was wrong." It didn't even occur to me that a grown woman wouldn't understand how to count centuries.

[JesusCampSongs]

2 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

By that very broad definition, defecating, urinating, menstruating, vomiting, sneezing, and ejaculating would all be considered medical procedures, wouldn't they?

I'm actually kind of intrigued by this topic. If I remove a splinter from my finger, is that technically a medical procedure, even though I am in no way a medical practitioner?

Pretty sure that would make you a surgeon in the eyes of the Duggars. Congratulations on your accomplishment! 

[BackseatMom]

5 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don't mean to drift off topic, but I beg to differ. I learned in my college Anthropology class that childbirth is most certainly not a "natural" bodily function. There is an ongoing evolutionary struggle between head size vs ability to fit through the vagina. Basically humans have evolved to have such large brains that it is no longer an easy fit, nor is it "safe" by any means! Also, compared to other mammals, human babies are born "half ready" due to the size battle. If it's not a medical process, why do such a huge number of women need episiotomies, or either tear horrifically? Sorry to rant but this line of thought really gets my goat. 

If anyone wants to dispute me please consult a textbook first. 

I'll just throw in my 2 cents, as someone who has taught that anthropology class. Yes, there is a biological compromise that our bodies had to make between baby preparedness and the narrowing of our hips that came with bipedalism. However, that doesn't mean childbirth isn't a natural process. Natural and safe mean different things. That is a preposterous claim.

On to safety: Most low risk women with good prenatal care and a competent attendant (midwife, obgyn, whatever) are fine. A little tearing is not a sign that doctors are needed - you only need a few stitches, which nurse midwives can easily do. And not all women tear. The literature clearly shows that most episiotomies are unnessecery or even harmful. That brings me to the main point: the comprehensive study if cultures around the world and through time shows that while birth is a natural and ubiquitous process, they ways we give birth and attend birth are cultural impositions. For example, laying on your back and pushing is one of the worst positions to give birth in. It came in to vouge around the we time that doctors took over from midwives and started using assist I've technologies. It is the most comfortable and accessible position for doctors.

Obviously, childbirth can be quote dangerous for some women. Knowing the research, I started with midwives. It was a great experience, until my baby wouldn't flip. He got stuck. My very competent nurse midwives tool me to the hospital, and I had a c section. Thank god I live in a time and place where I have options. 

The bottom line is that midwives are a great option for many women, and a boon to lowering healthcare costs and the rate of interventions as a public health issue. Other women need more advanced medicine. What is important is to make smart choices for your situation and comfort level. There is no reason to bash on people for making different choices than you when you don't know the details.

[BabyBottlePop]

20 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Maybe I'm just being a super snob, but it's kind of shocking to me that an adult wouldn't know that the 18th century refers to the 1700s. That was some super shitty Duggar homeschooling. 

When I read Jessa's comment, my first thought was "Huh, I thought Spurgeon lived in the 1800s. Guess I was wrong." It didn't even occur to me that a grown woman wouldn't understand how to count centuries.

I don't want to be snobby either, but just think how they must be away from the cameras and editing. The spell check and the fact that they choose what to show hides a bit of this.

But being educated brings pride so better to be uneducated for Jesus.... Lest you learn something that makes you doubt the party line. 

[MargaretElliott]

Yeah, childbirth in itself is not a medical procedure, it's a natural one. However, it can quickly become a medical procedure, because while it's a natural bodily process, it's an extremely dangerous one. It was the #5 killer of women in the early 1800s. People are so used to just popping out a kid and everything being fine, they're not careful enough anymore. Now, if someone loses a baby or the mum in childbirth, it's a horrible tragedy. Back before modern medicine, that was just life. People nowadays say, "no parent should have to bury their child." Well, in the past, they did. All the time. It was still sad, but it wasn't the rare tragedy we see it as today. It was positively expected that you lose at least one child, risking your own life in the process. So yes, while childbirth itself is completely natural, it's still extremely dangerous. So it's very helpful to have educated, trained professionals present (whether it's a midwife or a doctor), just to make sure that the horrors of the past don't become the tragedies of the present.

So natural doesn't necessarily mean safe. Lots of things that are natural aren't safe. Childbirth. Atropa Belladonna. Bears 

[bal maiden]

5 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don't mean to drift off topic, but I beg to differ. I learned in my college Anthropology class that childbirth is most certainly not a "natural" bodily function. There is an ongoing evolutionary struggle between head size vs ability to fit through the vagina. Basically humans have evolved to have such large brains that it is no longer an easy fit, nor is it "safe" by any means! Also, compared to other mammals, human babies are born "half ready" due to the size battle. If it's not a medical process, why do such a huge number of women need episiotomies, or either tear horrifically? Sorry to rant but this line of thought really gets my goat. 

If anyone wants to dispute me please consult a textbook first. 

LOL, thanks for waving your textbook at a college professor who has taught those entry level anthropology classes  

Do you really think natural and medical are binary opposites? And do you think suggesting that something is a natural process implies it is safe? Because that seems to be what you took from what I said, which is in fact not what I said... 

As mentioned by the poster above me, who is clearly less irritable today, birthing methods are a cultural construction, including the medicalisation of childbirth. That doesn't mean that medicine does not have a place. 

[calimojo]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Childbirth is a natural process that has killed women for as long as humans have been alive. It should be attended by medical professionals who can help you, so that you do not die. The Duggars risk themselves every time that they have a homebirth with only a baby catcher. So yes natural but also dangerous, my appendix was also natural doesn't mean that it wouldn't have killed me if it had been left in there. Healthy Mom, healthy baby should be the concern.

Wonderful comment.  You are right.  It is natural, but woman and babies have died in childbirth since the beginning of time.  It can be safely managed with a minimum of intervention most of the time, but it is always a good idea to have someone qualified on hand to help if things take a wrong turn. 

Jessa and Jill have already had complicated deliveries.   Jill in particular would be negligent to attempt another home birth.  Jessa,  well, the risk seems to be more to her than to her baby, unless of course she starts to hemorrhage prior to the baby being born, which would clearly be a threat to both of them.  I don't mean to sound uncaring, but if an adult chooses to put themselves at risk that is entirely different than risking the life of their child or someone else.  

 

I don't really get their attitudes about home births when their own mom had most of her kids at the hospital.  Why do they seem to place so much of their self worth and seem to feel so preachy about home births?  I am not anti-home birth, but they just seem rather oddly committed to it and too lazy, or too stupid to at least have decent support from well trained certified mid-wives during the delivery

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

5 hours ago, VeganCupcake said:

I don't mean to drift off topic, but I beg to differ. I learned in my college Anthropology class that childbirth is most certainly not a "natural" bodily function. There is an ongoing evolutionary struggle between head size vs ability to fit through the vagina. Basically humans have evolved to have such large brains that it is no longer an easy fit, nor is it "safe" by any means! Also, compared to other mammals, human babies are born "half ready" due to the size battle. If it's not a medical process, why do such a huge number of women need episiotomies, or either tear horrifically? Sorry to rant but this line of thought really gets my goat. 

If anyone wants to dispute me please consult a textbook first. 

It is natural for a woman to give birth, yes our bodies do know what to do, but it is also dangerous.  We hear stories of women dying giving birth, and everyone is stunned why? Because we have medical interventions that make it very rare. It didn't used to be, it used to be very common pace, many women had babies until they died, because they didn't have medial interventions to save them.  I was one of those women who would have died giving birth, as would my son. My water broke, and I never went into labor, and my sons head was too big to fit through my narrow cervix, infection would have gotten us both.  Yes you CAN have a natural safe un complcated birth, but you can also not, I was 27 healthy and had no reason to think I would have so many complications.  My 2nd pregnancy was the exact opposite. Aside from her being bigger than big brother, it was a normal easy breezy pregnancy, 1 body 2 totally different experiences. 

[KelseyAnn]

35 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

LOL, thanks for waving your textbook at a college professor who has taught those entry level anthropology classes  

Do you really think natural and medical are binary opposites? And do you think suggesting that something is a natural process implies it is safe? Because that seems to be what you took from what I said, which is in fact not what I said... 

As mentioned by the poster above me, who is clearly less irritable today, birthing methods are a cultural construction, including the medicalisation of childbirth. That doesn't mean that medicine does not have a place. 

 

A bit of topic, sorry, but I am actually pursuing more education so that I can become a professor. Would you mind terribly if I asked you a few questions about the work involved? 

[may2]

They may want home births because they aren't insured.

[calimojo]

13 minutes ago, may2 said:

They may want home births because they aren't insured.

But then that backfired because a trip to the hospital in an ambulance followed by emergency room charges, blood transfusion and other things, probably cost more than a delivery at the hospital may have.  And Jill's hospital bill was also probably pretty high since she labored for a long time before delivering.  If they had been at the hospital the malpresentation would have been detected much earlier and planned non-urgent C/S could have been done.  Not cheap, but probably less money than what it cost her for her debacle

There is no guarantee that Jessa wouldn't have hemorrhaged even if she delivered in the hospital,  but there are several interventions in the hospital that can be done, before getting to the point of having to get blood.  She might have been able to have treated with a much lower level of intervention, like some IV pitocin and avoided the blood and the emergency situation. 

[apandaaries]

1 hour ago, KelseyAnn said:

A bit of topic, sorry, but I am actually pursuing more education so that I can become a professor. Would you mind terribly if I asked you a few questions about the work involved? 

If you are truly interested in that field, take a very long look at this blog, including all the sad, sorrowful letters from adjuncts and others leaving the profession: http://theprofessorisin.com/

Graduate schools are creating too many PhDs with far too few full-time, tenure track positions.  There are LOTS of openings for adjuncts, which is great if you don't have expensive commitments, don't have student loans, and never plan on having any major expenses (ever).  Here are just a couple of things to read: https://chroniclevitae.com/news/762-the-adjunct-crisis-is-everyone-s-problem

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/higher-education-college-adjunct-professor-salary/404461/

Make your future decisions carefully.  Higher education (beyond the Bachelors) and law school used to always be great ways to advance in the world.  While education is still wonderful and valuable, there are too many graduates from these kinds of programs and not enough available jobs with decent salaries and benefits to make the investment worthwhile in a practical fashion. As always, YMMV. Good luck with your career planning!

[Carm_88]

Jill might not have insurance now but wouldn't she have had it before, Derick was working with Walmart at the time Izzy was born. Wouldn't he have had something?

[nst]

not only did Jessa drop the mic she must read here because she is actually outside of TTH grocery shopping 

she must be nesting 

or someone else is doing it. 

 

[Rachel333]

If you think we have it bad with head size, consider the poor kiwis! (The birds, not the people from New Zealand.) Kiwis with eggs that are about a quarter of their body weight. In comparison, an emu lays an egg that is about 2% of its body weight.

This is an x-ray of a kiwi with an egg:

[eveandadam]

1834 to 1892 = 18th century => Ouch! I don't care what this sounds like but: most of my friends in school knew the difference at the age of 11.

Just a little reminder: those people are millionaires and are payed to preach their hateful message. WTH?! There are millions of highly educated people without a job. Yes, it sounds bitter, and I really am, bitter and envious!

 

 

 

[Malizabeth]

Today, I am laying on the couch with an upset stomach, and have come up with a baby name for Jessa: Leland for a boy after some old evangelist's last name.

[freedom_for_all]

I can't really snark on Jessa mixing up the labeling for centuries. I'm currently being college educated and have to pause and subtract/add to double check I am saying the right numbers. It's an easy mistake to make.

[snickerz]

2 hours ago, nst said:

not only did Jessa drop the mic she must read here because she is actually outside of TTH grocery shopping 

 

I figured she must read here because she took the picture BEFORE loading the cart with tater tots and other stuff we would snark on!

[Bad Wolf]

Spuddy is gorgeous. I would like to see how the littles are doing. Jenni said she wanted to be a vet. She probably won't get the chance to be a tech.