Jahi McMath 3: Issued Second Death Certificate and Will Finally Be Allowed to Rest

[bananabread]

Just wanted to drop in to say that this case is horrible. I hate to say it, but it seems obvious that the entire family has transformed a tragedy into perpetual income for themselves. Jahi and her siblings are not honored by this behavior.

Also: we watched Extremis in my law school clinic class recently (we provide free consultations and document drafting for poor clients). Please, please, PLEASE get your living wills and/or health care power of attorneys done if you haven't already. No one - family, friends, or health care providers - should have to struggle to make these decisions alone.

[Toothfairy]

5 years later and this family is still holding her body?

[AmazonGrace]

It could take a while.. There was a case of a boy who went into a coma when he was four and he was on life support until he had a heart attack at 24. His autopsy revealed that he had no recognizable brain tissue left so it was clear he had been totally brain dead for years and years.

[LadyCrow1313]

I haven't on in a while, so please excuse this question: is this poor girl still alive, or has the family finally done what's right & let her pass?

[smittykins]

Unfortunately, they haven't. 

Welcome back, @LadyCrow1313!

[atlantagirl30084]

There was this recent article in the new yorker about her:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die

So it seems the macabre watch continues...

 

[Briefly]

That is so sad, I understand sometimes it's hard to let people go. But this poor girl is gone, her parents are just keeping a shell alive.  I have not followed the case beyond the initial stories, but it sounds like they are profiting from her?  If that's true, then that is simply despicable.

[Buzzard]

On 2/2/2018 at 6:32 AM, AmazonGrace said:

It could take a while.. There was a case of a boy who went into a coma when he was four and he was on life support until he had a heart attack at 24. His autopsy revealed that he had no recognizable brain tissue left so it was clear he had been totally brain dead for years and years.

They're claiming that she still has brain tissue.  You'd think if that were true they would post those images EVERYWHERE.

[AmazonGrace]

7 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

They're claiming that she still has brain tissue.  You'd think if that were true they would post those images EVERYWHERE.

Four years ago they posted these:

There seems to be something left but it's certainly very damaged and brain dead or not, it looks like someone who will never recover and it would be more merciful to let them go.

[SnazzyNazzy]

This whole situation, makes me wonder, what is more important, the quality of life, or the quantity of life?

While I am of the opinion, that Jahi's brain is, by this point, reminiscent of vanilla pudding that's been left out in the sun, that is kind of a moot point. Maybe there IS some sort of minimal/rudimentary brain function going on, in that bowl of pudding, I sure as heck don't know. Let's be honest here though, if they took her off of her vent, or stopped any other treatments, that are keeping her body going, she wouldn't last long at all.

But that leads to the question, what is more important quality of life, or quantity of life? If there is literally ZERO activity going on in her brain, what is the point, in keeping her hooked up to every thing? While I'm not a religious person, I still think, that your soul/spirit/etc, knows when to leave its earthly vessel. And let's say there is something firing in that bowl of pudding, and she is aware of some things, how is it fair to her, to keep her trapped in that body?

[unsafetydancer]

12 hours ago, SnazzyNazzy said:

And let's say there is something firing in that bowl of pudding, and she is aware of some things, how is it fair to her, to keep her trapped in that body?

That's literally my worst fear, to be trapped and unable to influence my surroundings but still aware on some level. 

[SnazzyNazzy]

56 minutes ago, unsafetydancer said:

That's literally my worst fear, to be trapped and unable to influence my surroundings but still aware on some level. 

It's one of my top three fears as well. I have a living will, and advance directives, and one of the things is the legal jargon for "pull the damn plug already". I've even told MrSnazzy, that if the doctors are stalling on the pulling, to go and "trip" over the cord, with a good pull, and yank the damn thing out. 

[Terrie]

1 hour ago, SnazzyNazzy said:

It's one of my top three fears as well. I have a living will, and advance directives, and one of the things is the legal jargon for "pull the damn plug already". I've even told MrSnazzy, that if the doctors are stalling on the pulling, to go and "trip" over the cord, with a good pull, and yank the damn thing out. 

For what it's worth, doctors are rarely the ones stalling. There's a reason these cases often involve tons of money to move the deceased to some location across the country, or even to another country. Most doctors won't touch these cases with a 100 mile pole.

[SnazzyNazzy]

37 minutes ago, Terrie said:

For what it's worth, doctors are rarely the ones stalling. There's a reason these cases often involve tons of money to move the deceased to some location across the country, or even to another country. Most doctors won't touch these cases with a 100 mile pole.

If anything, the transplant doctors will yank it out. The only things I'm not donating, which are the main ones ironically, are my heart and lungs. I figure getting those organs from me, are like getting a car that's a lemon. Both sides of my family have heart issues, and said heart issues killed my entire paternal side. With the lungs, I've been a smoker for...math time....lalala....mathing still...26 years, with a nice chunk of those years being a 2 pack a day. 

 

[Buzzard]

20 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Four years ago they posted these:

There seems to be something left but it's certainly very damaged and brain dead or not, it looks like someone who will never recover and it would be more merciful to let them go.

They're claiming that whatever is left has "regenerated" or atleast grown new pathways.  If thats the case then, again, POST IT.  There is a reason the State is not allowed to hold press conferences and blast all their evidence on the nightly news prior to jury selection - it influences the jury pool.  If this were true, that her brain had regrown itself and she has the ability to hear, comprehend, and react in a meaningful way, then you would expect a full court media press to sway public opinion and influence the jury pool.  Instead, crickets.

I dont think there is any question that there is no "life" when there is no ability to interact with the outside world and one is essentially a prisoner in a body with no feeling.  Even Jahi's mom claims that she 'asks' her if she still wants to continue.  If she wasnt receiving what she perceived as the appropriate response would she pull the plug?  I dont know.  I just really want to see the scan because I dont believe that the part of her brain that isnt mush is capable of the communication they're claiming.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

47 minutes ago, SnazzyNazzy said:

The only things I'm not donating, which are the main ones ironically, are my heart and lungs.

Even if the heart and lungs are the "main ones", there's still so much good that can come from donating other organs. For someone who needs a liver or kidney transplant, organ donation can save their life. For someone who needs a cornea transplant, organ donation can save their sight. (I know there are other benefits, but those are the ones that come to my mind.)

My mom had one cornea transplant in the 70s and another (other eye) in the 80s. Without these organ donations, she would be essentially blind. When I think of that, I'm always so thankful to the two families who gave her the gift of sight by donating their loved ones' organs. And I'm grateful to the surgeon and other medical staff who performed the surgeries and follow up care. Organ donation is amazing!

[SnazzyNazzy]

1 minute ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Even if the heart and lungs are the "main ones", there's still so much good that can come from donating other organs. For someone who needs a liver or kidney transplant, organ donation can save their life. For someone who needs a cornea transplant, organ donation can save their sight. (I know there are other benefits, but those are the ones that come to my mind.)

My mom had one cornea transplant in the 70s and another (other eye) in the 80s. Without these organ donations, she would be essentially blind. When I think of that, I'm always so thankful to the two families who gave her the gift of sight by donating their loved ones' organs. And I'm grateful to the surgeon and other medical staff who performed the surgeries and follow up care. Organ donation is amazing!

I'm donating everything BUT those (since one of them will probably be what kills me..lol). I'm dead, I don't need them. The skin donation squicks me out, but once again, I'm dead and don't need it. 

[AmazonGrace]

20 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

 I just really want to see the scan because I dont believe that the part of her brain that isnt mush is capable of the communication they're claiming.

I just don't see how she could respond to commands and move her fingers by request because important neural pathways she would need in order to hear and understand speech and to program and execute an appropriate motor response  go through the brainstem and midbrain which look mostly like a puddle here. . JMO and I'm not a neurologist.

 

Better photo

[Coconut Flan]

My personal belief is she's dead and she's been dead since before her mother got permission to take the corpse.  All the rest is smoke and mirrors by her mother and that kook of a "doctor" who has an agenda he's pushing. 

[HarryPotterFan]

2 hours ago, SnazzyNazzy said:

If anything, the transplant doctors will yank it out. The only things I'm not donating, which are the main ones ironically, are my heart and lungs. I figure getting those organs from me, are like getting a car that's a lemon. Both sides of my family have heart issues, and said heart issues killed my entire paternal side. With the lungs, I've been a smoker for...math time....lalala....mathing still...26 years, with a nice chunk of those years being a 2 pack a day. 

 

In addition to wanting organs for patients in need, doctors might feel, “Well, this person is dead and taking up the bed of someone who actually needs it.” So yeah, I think the probability of a doctor pushing to keep a brain-dead person on a ventilator are low.

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

They're claiming that whatever is left has "regenerated" or atleast grown new pathways.  If thats the case then, again, POST IT.  There is a reason the State is not allowed to hold press conferences and blast all their evidence on the nightly news prior to jury selection - it influences the jury pool.  If this were true, that her brain had regrown itself and she has the ability to hear, comprehend, and react in a meaningful way, then you would expect a full court media press to sway public opinion and influence the jury pool.  Instead, crickets.

Also if her brain regenerated neurologists all over the world would be clamoring tonstudy her.

55 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

I just don't see how she could respond to commands and move her fingers by request because important neural pathways she would need in order to hear and understand speech and to program and execute an appropriate motor response  go through the brainstem and midbrain which look mostly like a puddle here. . JMO and I'm not a neurologist.

 

Better photo

I have enough doctors in my family that I could ask what they think of that MRI. But it doesn’t look like much to me. This is a healthy brain. You can tell some major structures in Jahi’s brain are missing. There is also a lot of empty space in her scan where healthy tissue should be. Which means it’s just empty, the tissue has died and shriveled up.

ETA: And her scan is from 2014. I can’t imagine there’s much brain tissue there at all now.

[AmazonGrace]

Her brain scans certainly seem like they're more associated with "disintegrating" than "regenerating" to me, and I fear with a brain that looks like that, even if there is something capable of regenerating it would likely not mean any kind of functional improvement or improvement in quality of life, just more capacity to feel trapped and confused.

[smittykins]

3 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Even if the heart and lungs are the "main ones", there's still so much good that can come from donating other organs. For someone who needs a liver or kidney transplant, organ donation can save their life. For someone who needs a cornea transplant, organ donation can save their sight. (I know there are other benefits, but those are the ones that come to my mind.)

My mom had one cornea transplant in the 70s and another (other eye) in the 80s. Without these organ donations, she would be essentially blind. When I think of that, I'm always so thankful to the two families who gave her the gift of sight by donating their loved ones' organs. And I'm grateful to the surgeon and other medical staff who performed the surgeries and follow up care. Organ donation is amazing!

When my husband passed in 2005, I donated his organs, and they were able to use his corneas, bone, and a heart valve. 

[kacarlton]

I just don't see how she could respond to commands and move her fingers by request because important neural pathways she would need in order to hear and understand speech and to program and execute an appropriate motor response  go through the brainstem and midbrain which look mostly like a puddle here. . JMO and I'm not a neurologist.
 
Better photo

I just noticed the “not for medical use” caption on that scan. Hmmm...

[melon]

On 2/6/2018 at 3:38 PM, smittykins said:

When my husband passed in 2005, I donated his organs, and they were able to use his corneas, bone, and a heart valve. 

We also donated my son's organs,when we chose to have him removed from his ventilator.They used his kidneys and his liver.

[Terrie]

New Yorker ran an article on the case. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die?mbid=social_facebook_aud_dev_kw_paid-what-does-it-mean-to-die&kwp_0=712161&kwp_4=2522359&kwp_1=1068711

I was disappointed with the article. It equates a philosophical question with a medical one, and takes the views of the family at face value without really asking many hard questions.