Ben, Jessa, Spurgeon Six

[Bad Wolf]

I've been watching the 60s on Netflix. Episode 4 deals with the freedom riders and MLK.We've come a long way, but we still have so far to go. The 60s wasn't so long ago.

[Drala]

Here's how I lost my "colorblindness."  I grew up in the military, although my family of origin is from the deep rural south.  When I was about 6 years old, I went down south to visit relatives.  This was in the 1950s when segregation was still in effect.  My aunt took me shopping at a department store where I saw two water fountains.  One was labeled "Colored."  When I went up to use the Colored water fountain, my aunt pulled me back in horror.  What was I thinking, she asked.  I thought the water was colored, which seemed like a fun idea.  I had never before confronted segregation.  The public school I attended "up north" was integrated, as was the military.  When I asked my aunt why there would be a separate water fountain for "Colored" people, she said something about germs!  That made no sense to me since I shared a water fountain at school with the black kids, but it sure made a big impression. 

There is one place in the United States that I know of where a White person can experience being stigmatized as a "less than" minority, and that is Hawaii.  My father was stationed there in the 1960s, just after it became a state.  Although there's a lot of PR for the islands' "aloha spirit" of inter-racial, trans-cultural tolerance, I definitely experienced the underbelly of that idealized kumbya as a "dumb haole." I got mocked for being a pasty-faced white girl, dismissed as clueless and stupid, and told (on one memorable occasion) that my "big" haole nose looked like a cigar.

Growing up in the military, I was pretty much always looked at as an outsider, even in predominantly White communities.  It's similar to being a missionary's kid or growing up in family linked to international business.  There's a term for us--Third Culture Kids.  At the time I was growing up, I didn't like all the moving around and always being the new kid. Also, coming of age as a military brat at the height of the Viet Nam conflict was confusing and alienating. After I became an adult and resolved some identity issues, I learned to appreciate the unique perspective of being a Third Culture Kid.

[twinmama]

10 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Sadly, many people are totally fine with using that word. It truly breaks my heart that so many young children use it. Those kids are taught that word, and taught to use it towards Black people. Sadly, the first time another kid used it towards me, I was 6 years old! First grade! Children don't care about race, hate is learned. Some ass hole racist stole that child's innocence by teaching them hate.

That is horrifyingly sad. it is gross that people teach their children those things and give them hate where there was none. As a white lady with white kids, I have waited for my boys to make a comment on someone's skin color while we are out (mainly bc kids have no filter and are so curious about things), they never have. I'm torn because I love that they obviously see that people look different but don't care but I want to educate them about those differences. At this point, I'm not willing to bring it up that not everyone is as sweet as they are..

11 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I've always been sensitive to that too...but as you just mentioned not all Black people are from Africa. So it seems inappropriate. But for some time that was the "pc" term to use. I appreciate that coming up in the conversation.

I also wonder which word to use sometimes, especially because if you are discussing a black person in England or any other country, African AMERICAN is clearly not the correct term. I usually just say black like I say white, but if someone corrected me or told me a more accepted term I would obviously switch.

10 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

This baby is getting eviction notices left and right. It's time kid. It's one baby btw, but i'm so big (and she's so big) that i'm getting twin comments. No twins, just a 9ish pound baby. 

Good luck!!! I did have twins and you have 5lb more baby in there than I did!  

[Casserole]

Growing up, my dad always told me at the beginning of the school year if anyone ever called me a mick to punch them in the face and I wouldn't be in trouble. He never explained the meaning or what was wrong about it, just that I should never tolerate being called it. No one ever did, but his parents were immigrants and he lived in what was essentially the irish ghetto of NYC. (Yes, I know ghetto is offensive, but that is what it was called.) He keeps an "Irish need not apply" sign from an old storefront framed in our house to "remind us where we came from" and how hard we've worked to get there. 

[VelociRapture]

The only time I really think the N word is appropriate for me (northern white girl) to use is while reading certain pieces of literature - such as Huck Finn. I vividly remember reading it my Junior year of High School. My awesome teacher spent an entire class explaining the historical meaning behind it, why Mark Twain chose to use it in his work, and told us we didn't need to read the word aloud if we weren't comfortable using it. I still appreciate her taking the time to do that and it's been over a decade now.

I personally cringe when I hear anyone use any racially charged term - but especially the N word. I'm not going to tell a person of color what they should say or call themself because it's not my place. Another white person though? I call that shit out real fast.

And @SilverBeachand @iweartanktops- thank you both for your thoughtful explanations and comments on this subject. I can understand how it could probably get really old trying to patiently explain things to people who can't possibly understand from first hand experience. I really appreciate your patience and how clearly you've explained things.

[apandaaries]

7 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

I really don't have anything more to add regarding the race issues here in the US.  There are times when I think we've come a long way, but I get very discouraged when I hear my supposed non-racist "friends" (and family) easily use the "n" word in causal all-white company.

Be a more vocal ally.  Speak up when you hear that.  It's not always easy to confront people, but it's far preferable than allowing racism to go by unchecked.  

I'm trying to quote @twinmama, but the quotes are fucky for me right now.  I wanted to respond to this: "I also wonder which word to use sometimes, especially because if you are discussing a black person in England or any other country, African AMERICAN is clearly not the correct term. I usually just say black like I say white, but if someone corrected me or told me a more accepted term I would obviously switch."

I studied one summer in Sweden and attended a party in the college dorms.  I met a Swedish guy who was originally from Ethiopia.  He told me he was "African-American," which seemed so very odd to me.  "African-Swedish" would have seemed more appropriate, but I assumed it was a term he'd learned in his English classes.  

Best of luck to you and your (not so) little arrow, @quiverofdoubt!  

 

[Shadoewolf]

My daughter's AP American Lit class is trying to read Huck Finn, against the wishes of the school board.  There is a HUGE town hall meeting in our district next week about erasing the book from the curriculum because they say it "promotes racism" by having the N word. The students are even in an uproar because a) its a predominately black school and the kids call each other that all the time and b ) its the writing of the time, its historically significant that they learn about it.  They don't have to say the word out loud or write it if they aren't comfortable, so changes have already been made, but they're still considering banning the book. 

[guitar_villain]

14 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Sadly, many people are totally fine with using that word. It truly breaks my heart that so many young children use it. Those kids are taught that word, and taught to use it towards Black people. Sadly, the first time another kid used it towards me, I was 6 years old! First grade! Children don't care about race, hate is learned. Some ass hole racist stole that child's innocence by teaching them hate.

On the flip side, I've had to deal with my biracial kids using it to refer to each other in slang.  They hear it all the time in hip hop and the older one especially had tried the "it's our word" defense.  Perhaps so, but sorry, you don't get to use it in any circumstance in our house.

[iweartanktops]

6 minutes ago, guitar_villain said:

On the flip side, I've had to deal with my biracial kids using it to refer to each other in slang.  They hear it all the time in hip hop and the older one especially had tried the "it's our word" defense.  Perhaps so, but sorry, you don't get to use it in any circumstance in our house.

Yeah, I don't appreciate the word being used by other black people, but I understand why they use it. I never have, and if I ever heard one of my siblings do so, we'd have a talk. 

I'm also quite certain that it wouldn't be cool in my parents' house! 

[guitar_villain]

14 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

I'm trying to quote @twinmama, but the quotes are fucky for me right now.  I wanted to respond to this: "I also wonder which word to use sometimes, especially because if you are discussing a black person in England or any other country, African AMERICAN is clearly not the correct term. I usually just say black like I say white, but if someone corrected me or told me a more accepted term I would obviously switch."

I studied one summer in Sweden and attended a party in the college dorms.  I met a Swedish guy who was originally from Ethiopia.  He told me he was "African-American," which seemed so very odd to me.  "African-Swedish" would have seemed more appropriate, but I assumed it was a term he'd learned in his English classes.  

This is one of the reasons I really don't like the term African American.  I had a friend in college who was African American.  He was a blond haired, blue-eyed Boer from South Africa, but he was proud of being from SA and happily checked all the boxes on forms to indicate that he was African American if they gave him that option. Race, culture, ethnicity, class and place of origin are all a big muddle- after all, go far enough back and we're *all* African

[Jinder Roles]

Yeah, in the U.S sometimes people refer to me as African-American and I correct them and say I'm black, because I'm not American. It's not offensive to me but I don't identify that way. Somehow African-American is more  PC but it's kind of a muddy term. I don't understand why calling someone black makes some people uncomfortable. Maybe it's because it's more blunt? As long as you don't call me coloured or the N word I'm good! 

[Bad Wolf]

Old person, here. I've seen PC go from Negro to Colored, to Black, to African American to POC. I've stuck to Black, or however someone wants to call themself.

[iweartanktops]

I think it would be interesting to start a thread on race. I suppose it would go in No Holds Barred, but then not everyone could participate. Hmmm... 

[Maggie Mae]

22 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

I think it would be interesting to start a thread on race. I suppose it would go in No Holds Barred, but then not everyone could participate. Hmmm... 

I think that would be interesting as well. So much of what we consider "race" is a social construct. 

The NYT has a interesting opinion section about race and identity from 2015. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity 

[iweartanktops]

Thanks @Maggie Mae! I'll start a thread, and read this article. Race is a little uncomfortable for me to discuss sometimes, because of some of the things I described above. Also, I've been picked apart by fellow black people quite a bit throughout my life. It's interesting to discuss here, since we have such a diverse group of members, from different countries, races, cultures, ages, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc. 

FYI - I'm starting a thread in NHB. Sorry in advance for those with <75 posts! 

[SportsgalAnnie]

7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I've been watching the 60s on Netflix. Episode 4 deals with the freedom riders and MLK.We've come a long way, but we still have so far to go. The 60s wasn't so long ago.

that's how I felt after "Motown"

[Jinder Roles]

7 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

Thanks @Maggie Mae! I'll start a thread, and read this article. Race is a little uncomfortable for me to discuss sometimes, because of some of the things I described above. Also, I've been picked apart by fellow black people quite a bit throughout my life. It's interesting to discuss here, since we have such a diverse group of members, from different countries, races, cultures, ages, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc. 

FYI - I'm starting a thread in NHB. Sorry in advance for those with <75 posts! 

Nooooooooo..... well I better get to posting then.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, amandaaries said:

I'm trying to quote @twinmama, but the quotes are fucky for me right now.  I wanted to respond to this: "I also wonder which word to use sometimes, especially because if you are discussing a black person in England or any other country, African AMERICAN is clearly not the correct term. I usually just say black like I say white, but if someone corrected me or told me a more accepted term I would obviously switch."

I studied one summer in Sweden and attended a party in the college dorms.  I met a Swedish guy who was originally from Ethiopia.  He told me he was "African-American," which seemed so very odd to me.  "African-Swedish" would have seemed more appropriate, but I assumed it was a term he'd learned in his English classes.  

I will use "people/person of African descent" and "people with African racial origins" as opposed to "people/person of European descent" etc. sometimes.  It's bulky, but it doesn't offend, as far as I know.  I have a friend from Africa and (although she is a US citizen) she hates the term Africa American.  So I also use "Black" and "White."

[Jinder Roles]

@iweartanktops I'm sorry others thought it was their place pick apart your identity because you were deemed not 'black' enough (whatever that means). It's the worst feeling. 

If I got a dollar for every time someone called me an 'Oreo' or said I wasn't a real black person, I'd have enough money to buy eleventy and one Oreo cookies. 

p.s: I'm not sorry for my double posting because I really want to get into NHB threads. 

[iweartanktops]

12 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

@iweartanktops I'm sorry others thought it was their place pick apart your identity because you were deemed not 'black' enough (whatever that means). It's the worst feeling. 

If I got a dollar for every time someone called me an 'Oreo' or said I wasn't a real black person, I'd have enough money to buy eleventy and one Oreo cookies. 

p.s: I'm not sorry for my double posting because I really want to get into NHB threads. 

Thank you! 

I'm not too sensitive about it anymore, but it was really hard when I was younger. Also, I'm not too easily offended, so I'll often laugh off the jokes. When I was in college, a lot of black women would say I thought I was better because of the way I talk. That was hard because I can't really help how I talk. You know? I can only be me. My mom says that even if we had stayed in the state I was born in (a predominantly black area), she's convinced I would still be very "proper." Even as a child, I always used perfect grammar when I talked. Now there's a lot of profanity mixed in.

Yeah, the mixed race jokes can be pretty stupid, too. Ugh. So much to say! Go read some threads in QOS and follow/post on other families! You can totally catch up. Just don't go post a bunch of thoughtless bull shit.

[patsymae]

30 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I will use "people/person of African descent" and "people with African racial origins" as opposed to "people/person of European descent" etc. sometimes.  It's bulky, but it doesn't offend, as far as I know.  I have a friend from Africa and (although she is a US citizen) she hates the term Africa American.  So I also use "Black" and "White."

My understanding is that Aftican American refers to black Americans who are the descendants of slaves or free blacks who were in the US some time before Emancipation, not to immigrants from Africa. In the USVI African American was used as well by black West Indians at times. But generally it seems best to call people what they want. I always worked in join alums so for work though AP called the shots

[twinmama]

4 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Yeah, I don't appreciate the word being used by other black people, but I understand why they use it. I never have, and if I ever heard one of my siblings do so, we'd have a talk. 

I'm also quite certain that it wouldn't be cool in my parents' house! 

I think I would be stunned silent to hear anyone use the n word, black white or other. If I heard my own kids use it, I can't imagine how disappointed in them I would be. And the talk we would have about that would be never ending for sure.  

But I am certainly not going to tell a black person they cannot use it. I think reclaiming words is possible, like gay people are doing with queer. I fear the n word has too long and horrible a history to be reclaimed though.

2 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

I think it would be interesting to start a thread on race. I suppose it would go in No Holds Barred, but then not everyone could participate. Hmmm... 

I think it is fascinating to discuss really. Especially someplace where everyone starts out assuming that everyone has good intentions. If people are afraid to ask what is the best term to use or any other thing like that, they'll never know. Not all ignorant questions come from a place of hate, gotta learn someplace!

[Jinder Roles]

46 minutes ago, patsymae said:

My understanding is that Aftican American refers to black Americans who are the descendants of slaves or free blacks who were in the US some time before Emancipation, not to immigrants from Africa. In the USVI African American was used as well by black West Indians at times. But generally it seems best to call people what they want. I always worked in join alums so for work though AP called the shots

That's very interesting. I've lived in several Caribbean countries and have never heard a Caribbean black person refer to themselves as African-American. Perhaps in happens in USVI because Virgin Islanders are American citizens? Actually in the Caribbean people tend to identify themselves from what island they're from first, before their race/ethnicity

[iweartanktops]

14 minutes ago, twinmama said:

I think I would be stunned silent to hear anyone use the n word, black white or other. If I heard my own kids use it, I can't imagine how disappointed in them I would be. And the talk we would have about that would be never ending for sure.  

But I am certainly not going to tell a black person they cannot use it. I think reclaiming words is possible, like gay people are doing with queer. I fear the n word has too long and horrible a history to be reclaimed though.

I think it is fascinating to discuss really. Especially someplace where everyone starts out assuming that everyone has good intentions. If people are afraid to ask what is the best term to use or any other thing like that, they'll never know. Not all ignorant questions come from a place of hate, gotta learn someplace!

Regarding the bold, I really want to discuss it more in the NHB thread. I particularly want to hear from other Black people. As I said before, I don't like the word being used, but I want to discuss why some Black people use it. I've had very little exposure with the word being used in Black culture, so I don't feel comfortable saying much about it. 

It's a healthy discussion, and I hope people will participate and ask questions! Personally, I'm open to answering, as long as people are respectful. 

[samurai_sarah]

Here is the link to the thread in No Holds Barred:

Just as a reminder: It is against FJ's rules to post things like "I agree", just to make the requisite 75 posts to access certain parts of the forum.