Ben, Jessa, Spurgeon Six

[Gemini]

On 23 April 2016 at 7:10 AM, Jinder Roles said:

What do you even mean by "African American cultural identity"? You understand that black people aren't a monolith right? 

I think you're placing too much emphasis on cultural identity. Race is a part of someone's identity period. You're kid is African-American anyways, you don't have to 'raise' them to be so (whatever that means). Whether or not a child engages in so called African-American culture (which varies greatly), that kid is still black. And one can be exposed to 'culture' in many ways, not just through parents. How do you know that an adoptive kid will have no affinity to their culture/race just because they're raised by people of a different culture/race? (that's for the child to decide).

Adoptive white parents do not operate separate from society. In some way are another, the way they view their child's blackness is informed by society. And in some way or another their adoptive child's identity/experience is informed by society. This is why it is better to be socially aware and sensitive to that fact. You don't have to be the same to be equal. You don't have to erase a part of a child's identity in an attempt to be 'fair'. 

I don't think it's accurate to compare your children's European-ness to an adoptive black child's experience. Nationalism and race do not work the same way. 

And, no a white child adopted by black parents is not African-American. They're still white. 

What I'm trying to get at is, no matter what you do you're adoptive black kid will still be black. Culture doesn't make someone a black or white. Erasing a part of your kid's identity for some post-racial ideal is not the way to go. 

Now everybody say it with me; We do not live in a post-racial society!!11!!1

 

 

 

I've spent a lot of today debating, dwelling on and even crying (I'm highly emotional at the moment, no rational reason, just ridiculous hormones) a little over this post.

Im not adopted, I was raised by my birth mother. I was however raised completely white British, despite being half Arabic. My Mum and biological Dad split when I was 2, and my mum remarried shortly after to a wonderful man who I consider to be my true father. She and her family made some incredibly harsh decisions that effectively stopped me from having any contact with  bio dad until I was in my early 30's. They then chose not to tell me until I was 12 that I was a, not my stepfathers daughter and b, mixed race. (Much to my mother's delight I inherited her Irish pale, freckled skin) 

when I was finally told, (when she threw it in my face during an argument) I was then told that I must not discuss it with anyone as no one would want to have anything to do with me. Britain was in the middle of the first gulf war, and, according to her everyone 'hated Arabs', (and many of my family certainly did despite knowing exactly who I was!) 

I can't even begin to explain how completely screwed up, carrying around my 'dirty little secret', made me. My delightful mother, who later got re married again to a racist, once said I was lucky I had pale skin or her new husband might not have let me live in his house. Even today, now with husband number 4 who is a wonderful and cultured man, she still won't acknowledge that I am mixed race, and will often say some terribly racist things in front of me. 

When I finally met my bio father many years later, it was like I had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge. I felt I was finally getting to ask questions about who I was!  I was culturly raised as white British but,  although it's been incredibly tough trying to form a solid relationship with my bio father, he is my key to the identity I feel was stolen from me.

anyway, I don't know how much,  if anything I've offered to the conversation, but I just wanted to say thank you! even now I still question who I am because of the route my family took, but this

'race is part of someone's identity, period'!

says it all! 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

My understanding is that Aftican American refers to black Americans who are the descendants of slaves or free blacks who were in the US some time before Emancipation, not to immigrants from Africa. In the USVI African American was used as well by black West Indians at times. But generally it seems best to call people what they want. I always worked in join alums so for work though AP called the shots

Oh, I entirely agree that people should be called what they want to be called--but sometimes we don't know, or we are addressing a group and they disagree among themselves what the best term is. (Handicapped, disabled, person with disabilities, physically challenged... At one point I knew two people with the same disability who got into a fight about it. One liked handicapped the other one didn't.) 

As for my friend from Africa, she doesn't object to the term just for herself but for everyone. She thinks that words like African-American and European-American are dismissive of the complexities of culture, etc.. And she likes to joke that she is an African-African.  

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

My daughter's AP American Lit class is trying to read Huck Finn, against the wishes of the school board.  There is a HUGE town hall meeting in our district next week about erasing the book from the curriculum because they say it "promotes racism" by having the N word. The students are even in an uproar because a) its a predominately black school and the kids call each other that all the time and b ) its the writing of the time, its historically significant that they learn about it.  They don't have to say the word out loud or write it if they aren't comfortable, so changes have already been made, but they're still considering banning the book. 

Book banning is a bad idea. And Black kids calling each other the N word does not make it OK for non-Black people to do it. I think reflecting contextual racism and promoting it are two different things. Aren't schools supposed to teach thinking?

[SilverBeach]

14 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

As for my friend from Africa, she doesn't object to the term just for herself but for everyone. She thinks that words like African-American and European-American are dismissive of the complexities of culture, etc.. And she likes to joke that she is an African-African.  

This. The correct term should be Nigerian-American", Egyptian American, etc. Saying African-American makes about as much sense as saying North American- American or South American American. These are continents, for heaven's sake, not countries! Europeans are identified by nation, Irish American, Italian American, etc. The whole thing is silly and dismissive. People born here like me shouldn't need hypens to identify their origin.

I have met people from the continent of Africa and when I ask what country they are usually surprised. Most people, they say, don't really care and see Africa as a monolith.

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I will use "people/person of African descent" and "people with African racial origins" as opposed to "people/person of European descent" etc. sometimes.  It's bulky, but it doesn't offend, as far as I know.  I have a friend from Africa and (although she is a US citizen) she hates the term Africa American.  So I also use "Black" and "White."

I am not of 100% Black African descent, which is the case with most native born Black americans. The term Black is fine, hell I prefer Negro to African American, it just doesn't fit me. Who came up with this identifier anyway?

[EmCatlyn]

42 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

This. The correct term should be Nigerian-American", Egyptian American, etc. Saying African-American makes about as much sense as saying North American- American or South American American. These are continents, for heaven's sake, not countries! Europeans are identified by nation, Irish American, Italian American, etc. The whole thing is silly and dismissive. People born here like me shouldn't need hypens to identify their origin.

I have met people from the continent of Africa and when I ask what country they are usually surprised. Most people, they say, don't really care and see Africa as a monolith.

I am not of 100% Black African descent, which is the case with most native born Black americans. The term Black is fine, hell I prefer Negro to African American, it just doesn't fit me. Who came up with this identifier anyway?

I don't think that "Black" refers to how dark a person is any more than "White" refers to how pale a person is.  As I said earlier, racial and ethnic labels are largely arbitrary.  I don't want to offend anyone, so I try to use terms that they prefer, but sometimes it seems that no matter what term you use you will offend someone.

Like @Bad Wolf I am old enough to remember that "Colored" was once the correct, respectful term, then it was "Negro," then it was "Afro-American" or "Black," but Black was preferred and became  the right term for a time but then  it had to be "African American," but some people still prefer "Black," and then there is "Person of Color," which is a mouthful, so we can say "POC"... 

We just have to keep trying to find a "common language" I suppose.

[socalrules]

My mother is black. My father is half Ethiopian half Italian and was born in Ethiopia. If you asked him, he would say he is African. I am not sure why he always says that rather than Ethiopian as I know he loves everything Ethiopian. I have always said I am black.  When I was a kid I was black and then the term African American seemed to be used more often at some point. I always stick with black. I don't have a problem with it and am happy with who I am. 

I don't have a problem with interracial adoption.  I would rather a kid be in a real home with parents of any color than shuttled from foster home to foster home. Every kid deserves a family and a chance at a real foundation for the future. I think most people that adopt have good intentions and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Adopting a child to give them a loving home make you a hero in my eyes. I don't think there is a greater gift that can be given. 

 

[guitar_villain]

One of my favorite comics from years ago.  (Can't find one without the edge cut off sadly)

 

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

This. The correct term should be Nigerian-American", Egyptian American, etc. Saying African-American makes about as much sense as saying North American- American or South American American. These are continents, for heaven's sake, not countries! Europeans are identified by nation, Irish American, Italian American, etc. The whole thing is silly and dismissive. People born here like me shouldn't need hypens to identify their origin.

I have met people from the continent of Africa and when I ask what country they are usually surprised. Most people, they say, don't really care and see Africa as a monolith.

I am not of 100% Black African descent, which is the case with most native born Black americans. The term Black is fine, hell I prefer Negro to African American, it just doesn't fit me. Who came up with this identifier anyway?

Jesse Jackson led the movement to popularize the term back in the 1989s.

Since most descendants of slaves cannot pinpoint the modern_day country in Africa their ancestors lived in, identifying by country of origin is a moot point.

The term was hotly debated at the time, at least by whites, and then moved into general acceptance, although not as a categorical replacement for "black."  Kind of strange to me to see it still causing such controversy 

 

 

 

 

 

[SilverBeach]

20 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don't think that "Black" refers to how dark a person is any more than "White" refers to how pale a person is.  As I said earlier, racial and ethnic labels are largely arbitrary.  I don't want to offend anyone, so I try to use terms that they prefer, but sometimes it seems that no matter what term you use you will offend someone.

Like @Bad Wolf I am old enough to remember that "Colored" was once the correct, respectful term, then it was "Negro," then it was "Afro-American" or "Black," but Black was preferred and became  the right term for a time but then  it had to be "African American," but some people still prefer "Black," and then there is "Person of Color," which is a mouthful, so we can say "POC"... 

We just have to keep trying to find a "common language" I suppose.

I'm also old enough (60) to remember the various terms for us Black folks, especially Negro. I find all this terminology changing silly and of no real value.   You are so correct that neither Black nor White are reflective of skin tone, to paraphrase another poster, you wouldn't know some folks are Black by looking at them. 

POC is silly too, as some East Indians and Mexicans, Aboriginal people, and quite a few others have more melanin than some American Blacks. 

If a form only has African American, I choose "other". Or leave it blank.

If you are unsure which term to use, just ask the person you are talking to. Or use them all, or none.  

 

[Drala]

16 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Thanks @Maggie Mae! I'll start a thread, and read this article. Race is a little uncomfortable for me to discuss sometimes, because of some of the things I described above. Also, I've been picked apart by fellow black people quite a bit throughout my life. It's interesting to discuss here, since we have such a diverse group of members, from different countries, races, cultures, ages, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc. 

FYI - I'm starting a thread in NHB. Sorry in advance for those with <75 posts! 

I'm also facinated by the topic of race/ethnicity/culture/identity.  What is "NHB"?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

15 minutes ago, Drala said:

I'm also facinated by the topic of race/ethnicity/culture/identity.  What is "NHB"?

A restricted section of the forum called "no holds barred". It's the place for controversial topics. A link to the thread started by @iweartanktops was posted upthread. 

[Handmaiden of Dog]

17 hours ago, patsymae said:

Jesse Jackson led the movement to popularize the term back in the 1989s.

Since most descendants of slaves cannot pinpoint the modern_day country in Africa their ancestors lived in, identifying by country of origin is a moot point.

The term was hotly debated at the time, at least by whites, and then moved into general acceptance, although not as a categorical replacement for "black."  Kind of strange to me to see it still causing such controversy 

 

 

 

 

 

When I was reading this discussion yesterday afternoon that is exactly what popped into my head;  I remember that footage of Rev. Jackson in a classroom of very young boys leading them in a chant, "I am...an Afro-AmeriCAN.  I am...an Afro-AmeriCAN."  It was a way to choose their own label and there was a lot of ridicule from outsiders.  Now it has become so acceptable and pervasive that it is falling out of fashion for reasons other people have stated (not all Africans are black, not all blacks are from Africa.) Colored was just falling out of fashion (my grandmother still used it at that time) and black was still too militant as it was used by the Black Panthers to promote Black Power.

I just try to be sensitive to whatever term people want to label themselves.  The same with sexual identity.  My daughter told me a few months ago she prefers to be called a pansexual.  I knew she dated both men and women but the term was new to me-- I figured she was bisexual but she corrected me.  She is also biracial but does not like being called a Japanese-American, she refers to herself as an Asian even though she was born in the United States and has never lived anywhere else and I'm white.  She may in the future decide on a different label, but that is up to her.

[AliceInFundyland]

I'm eventually going to get over there and make my comments on the matter. I like NHB. I wish though, that this conversation, and the one in the other thread (duggar v bates? I can't keep track of which drift is happening in which duggar thread) about race would penetrate the appropriate brain cells. We are all going to go be enlightened and the unenlightened are going to remain as such. (And I am not referring to foreign fundie)

[iweartanktops]

38 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I'm eventually going to get over there and make my comments on the matter. I like NHB. I wish though, that this conversation, and the one in the other thread (duggar v bates? I can't keep track of which drift is happening in which duggar thread) about race would penetrate the appropriate brain cells. We are all going to go be enlightened and the unenlightened are going to remain as such. (And I am not referring to foreign fundie)

Right. Those who need to read and participate, most likely won't. The last couple of pages in this thread are evidence. 

[SilverBeach]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:20 PM, patsymae said:

Jesse Jackson led the movement to popularize the term back in the 1989s.

Since most descendants of slaves cannot pinpoint the modern_day country in Africa their ancestors lived in, identifying by country of origin is a moot point.

The term was hotly debated at the time, at least by whites, and then moved into general acceptance, although not as a categorical replacement for "black."  Kind of strange to me to see it still causing such controversy 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesse Jackson has never spoken for me, and I don't see why he got to re-lable all American Blacks with a not to well thought out moniker.

Re: Paragraph 2 above: Exactly! Modern day descendent's of Africans in America do not even have 100% African blood! Hence, our status as Americans should not be hyphenated. Present day immigrants from nations in the African continent should be referred to as Ghanian-American, etc. African American is a meaningless label for Black Americans and African immigrants.

The term isn't really causing controversy. I said before that, although meaningless and inaccurate, African American is generally recognized as meaning Black American, and most of us Black folks have acclimated to the term and do not see it asinsulting, whether we like it or not.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

On 4/25/2016 at 0:07 PM, EmCatlyn said:

I don't think that "Black" refers to how dark a person is any more than "White" refers to how pale a person is.  As I said earlier, racial and ethnic labels are largely arbitrary.  I don't want to offend anyone, so I try to use terms that they prefer, but sometimes it seems that no matter what term you use you will offend someone.

Like @Bad Wolf I am old enough to remember that "Colored" was once the correct, respectful term, then it was "Negro," then it was "Afro-American" or "Black," but Black was preferred and became  the right term for a time but then  it had to be "African American," but some people still prefer "Black," and then there is "Person of Color," which is a mouthful, so we can say "POC"... 

We just have to keep trying to find a "common language" I suppose.

Yep......I'm someone who is half Latina (Colombian) and constantly gets told along with her mother 'but you don't look Latina!!!!' because a lot of people don't realise that Latin@s are very dark skinned, very fair skinned and everything in the middle too. 

[Bad Wolf]

When i first got to the US I used my green card for ID. I got told on more thsn one occasion, "Wow, you don't look Mexican." I'm white English.

[xlurker]

On 4/24/2016 at 3:06 PM, Shadoewolf said:

My daughter's AP American Lit class is trying to read Huck Finn, against the wishes of the school board.  There is a HUGE town hall meeting in our district next week about erasing the book from the curriculum because they say it "promotes racism" by having the N word. The students are even in an uproar because a) its a predominately black school and the kids call each other that all the time and b ) its the writing of the time, its historically significant that they learn about it.  They don't have to say the word out loud or write it if they aren't comfortable, so changes have already been made, but they're still considering banning the book. 

Both my kids read Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer, my doing, not the school.  School wasn't too keen on it.  I felt it was important that they read, in the venacular of the time, what it may have been like. I also had them read 1984, Frankenstein, Moby Dick, Gone with the Wind and a slew of other classics.  School wasn't so happy about any of them for some reason.  Both my kids grew to be open minded independant thinking adults. Sometimes learning from history can be done thru the context of fiction. I have a problem with the recent banning of books.  It smacks of book burnings of ages gone by.  Wasn't a good idea than and I don't believe it is a good idea now.  I know some will say "but there are some things written that are just hateful"  and I agree.  I just think it can be traveling down the wrong road by either banning a book or by re-editing to remove what can be contrued as offensive language.  You cannot take the ugliness out of history, or the present either, for that matter. JMO

[Bad Wolf]

The Duggars don't ban books. It's just that books outside of Gothard approved don't exist in their world. They'd probably have a hard time with Winnie the Pooh. A boy roaming the woods without an accountability buddy, with talking toys, must be inspired by Satan. I'm with @xlurker. Read everything you can, so you can put things in perspective. 

That's why I enjoy the sermons at church. He always puts things into their historical context.

[Apricot]

New Spurgeon pic, I was surprised Jonathon Hartono refers to him as "the nephew". I mean I realised they stayed with the Duggars at one point but I didn't know they were that close still.

[nickelodeon]

He's talked about "his 19 siblings" on other insta posts recently, too. Extreme toadyism or wedding bells a-ringing, you make the call!

[Bad Wolf]

Jinger and Jonathan? We wait with baited breath until next Tuesday, when the mystery will be revealed. 

[Fundie Bunny]

Either way it's going to be a sad day for us. Jinger won't be freed anymore

[Audrey2]

17 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Either way it's going to be a sad day for us. Jinger won't be freed anymore

The way I see it, there are three possible outcomes for these fundamentalist children. The first is that they continue as adults doing exactly what they were raised to do, chugging and spewing the kool aid. The second is that they pull a bold runner and escape quickly from their upbringing. I know that is what we on this board are rooting for, but I don't see it as a likely outcome for either the Duggar or Bates children. The third possibility is that they marry, then with their spouse slowly and almost imperceptibility drift away. I see this as being the most likely way an adult would escape. Jim Bob and Michelle didn't wake up full on Fundy one morning, it was a process they eased into, probably moving a bit faster because of the miscarriage. I think the drift scenario is the most likely. We are seeing little bits of that now, with Jessa married to Bin, who seems more interested in wordly things than she is. 

[SassyPants]

57 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

The way I see it, there are three possible outcomes for these fundamentalist children. The first is that they continue as adults doing exactly what they were raised to do, chugging and spewing the kool aid. The second is that they pull a bold runner and escape quickly from their upbringing. I know that is what we on this board are rooting for, but I don't see it as a likely outcome for either the Duggar or Bates children. The third possibility is that they marry, then with their spouse slowly and almost imperceptibility drift away. I see this as being the most likely way an adult would escape. Jim Bob and Michelle didn't wake up full on Fundy one morning, it was a process they eased into, probably moving a bit faster because of the miscarriage. I think the drift scenario is the most likely. We are seeing little bits of that now, with Jessa married to Bin, who seems more interested in wordly things than she is. 

The only reason that none of the adults have chosen a different path is because of the $$$$ provided by the show. If JB had to support all these kids+spouses+gen3, things would be vastly different.

If Ben and Jessa didn't have the show, they'd have to make different choices.

And this is why I think the Bates made slightly different choices; encouraged more education/training and do not condemn jobs that take spouses away from the family for periods of time during the day. They had to because of the $$$$ aspect.

Cults die when the money dries up.

How could these folks have a dozen+ children and afford all that is associated without a mega income?

The Bates were living in a hovel before their show. 

The Duggar kids were sleeping on the couch (getting molested) and eating rice in the bathroom before TLC came sniffing.