Investigation of FLDS Graveyard of Babies Born of Incest

[DaisyD]

Ever since Disturbed did the cover of Sound of Silence it's been on the radio all the time. After reading the article on Willie Jessop, I can't get it out of my head. If I didn't know better I'd say it's actually about the FLDS. I suppose it could be about anyone waking up from a cult.

 

"The Sound Of Silence"
 

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence.

"Fools," said I, "You do not know.
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you.
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence."

[mamallama]

Wow, I've known that song practically my whole life and now it's suddenly new again.

 

[DaisyD]

3 minutes ago, mamallama said:

Wow, I've known that song practically my whole life and now it's suddenly new again.

 

Right? I feel like I didn't understand it before now.

[EyeQueue]

4 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

Ever since Disturbed did the cover of Sound of Silence it's been on the radio all the time. After reading the article on Willie Jessop, I can't get it out of my head. If I didn't know better I'd say it's actually about the FLDS. I suppose it could be about anyone waking up from a cult.

 

Thanks for giving a new perspective on these lyrics. It totally fits.

And, slightly off topic: I just heard the Disturbed remake a couple of days ago on our local alt-rock station. I was just starting to really get into it when it was *ripped* off the air. Our radio station does this thing where if enough people text in to say they don't like a song, they just flat-out take it off in the middle of the song and remove it from their rotation.

Damned kids that don't give the song a chance!

[Chevreuil]

6 hours ago, sawasdee said:

 

As for her father, he denies any physical abuse of his children, despite the fact that most of those who have left the FLDS confirm it. Please remember that this is the guy who handed over his 14 year old daughter Elissa Wall to be married, over her objections and those of her mother and sisters, because it gave him traction in FLDS. When her husband abused her, he refused to help. And he did not leave FLDS - he was expelled by Warren, and his wives and children reassigned. Only one of his three wives is still with him - the one who was not FLDS when they married, and therefore less indoctrinated.

So I just finished Elissa wall's book, stolen innocence, and I think you are confusing her bio father (Wall) with her reassigned father (Fees Jessop). Elissa, her mother and siblings were reassigned to fred Jessop before Elissa was married. Fred Jessop was also the father she went to for help about the abuse (he told her to speak to the prophet) I don't think she had any contact with her bio father at that time. 

 

Not that this makes any difference aa I believe her bio dad would have done the same thing since he appeared so desperate to gain favour within the flds.

[DaisyD]

2 hours ago, EyeQueue said:

Thanks for giving a new perspective on these lyrics. It totally fits.

And, slightly off topic: I just heard the Disturbed remake a couple of days ago on our local alt-rock station. I was just starting to really get into it when it was *ripped* off the air. Our radio station does this thing where if enough people text in to say they don't like a song, they just flat-out take it off in the middle of the song and remove it from their rotation.

Damned kids that don't give the song a chance!

That sucks! I really like that rendition. He has an amazing voice. 

[sawasdee]

@Chevreuil Yes, you're right. I had conflated Fred Jessup and Lloyd Wall - but he was still an unfeeling bastard to his children - and made Rebecca marry Rulon Jeffs when she was 18 and he was in his eighties! He also married off her sister Brittany to Jason Blackmore, then in his fifties......

[apandaaries]

For those of you interested in more about the 4 O'Clock Murders and the LeBaron clan, I highly recommend Irene Spencer's memoirs, Cult Insanity and Shattered Dreams.  Lots of in-depth depictions of a pretty horrific and incredibly tough life.  Another good one is God's Brothel, by Andrea Moore-Emmett, which has a variety of short stories from women who left various polygamous Mormon sects.

ETA: Forgot to mention Favorite Wife, by Susan Ray Schmidt, who was a sister wife to Irene Spencer (but lived rather a different lifestyle, due to her favored status).

Also, just to clarify, Warren Jeffs was caught in a red Escalade.  Just wanted to point that out, since it is such an incredibly expensive car, and when he was finally discovered, he also had tons of letters from his followers, none of which he'd read.  He's just slit the envelopes to extract their "tithes" and left the rest undisturbed and unread.  He is horrific beyond words. 

[sawasdee]

1 minute ago, amandaaries said:

For those of you interested in more about the 4 O'Clock Murders and the LeBaron clan, I highly recommend Irene Spencer's memoirs, Cult Insanity and Shattered Dreams.  Lots of in-depth depictions of a pretty horrific and incredibly tough life.  Another good one is God's Brothel, by Andrea Moore-Emmett, which has a variety of short stories from women who left various polygamous Mormon sects.

Also, just to clarify, Warren Jeffs was caught in a red Escalade.  Just wanted to point that out, since it is such an incredibly expensive car, and when he was finally discovered, he also had tons of letters from his followers, none of which he'd read.  He's just slit the envelopes to extract their "tithes" and left the rest undisturbed and unread.  He is horrific beyond words. 

And he had banned the colour red.

[apandaaries]

2 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

And he had banned the colour red.

Well, I think he'd reserved the color red for the "One Mighty and Strong," which he of course understood himself to be, so...totally justified!  /sarcasm

[sawasdee]

10 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

Well, I think he'd reserved the color red for the "One Mighty and Strong," which he of course understood himself to be, so...totally justified!  /sarcasm

I think the colour red was reserved for Jesus at the Second Coming.........

[apandaaries]

1 minute ago, sawasdee said:

I think the colour red was reserved for Jesus at the Second Coming.........

That could have been it, too.  Insufficient sleep is not helping my memory these days.  Regardless, pretty sure Jeffs saw (and still sees) himself on par with both of these divine, prophesied leaders.  

[Shoobydoo]

On 4/10/2016 at 8:02 PM, ViolaSebastian said:

Reason number 340,959,567-2b that I couldn't be in the FLDS...my fine hair could not handle that sort of backcombing. Dang.

Obviously looking at the least important thing possible here, but I always thought backcombing was very bad for your hair? I wouldn't be able to do that hairstyle, anyway. Even if you could get the poofs going my hair is so completely smooth that any attempts to braid it explode within minutes. 

On 4/10/2016 at 5:18 PM, pook said:

Thanks, now I can't stop watching these hair tutorials.  I need someone to give me a hair treatment and scalp massage.  Is it weird I find these videos relaxing?

I actually found it really relaxing, too. It's horrible mental dissonance-- I know just who made that video and how terrible their lives are, but that voice could lull me to sleep at night. It reminds me of an ASMR video.

[pook]

4 hours ago, Shoobydoo said:

Obviously looking at the least important thing possible here, but I always thought backcombing was very bad for your hair? I wouldn't be able to do that hairstyle, anyway. Even if you could get the poofs going my hair is so completely smooth that any attempts to braid it explode within minutes. 

I actually found it really relaxing, too. It's horrible mental dissonance-- I know just who made that video and how terrible their lives are, but that voice could lull me to sleep at night. It reminds me of an ASMR video.

I felt like such a boob for posting what I did, but I did find it mesmerizing like hypnotic. 

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 11:31 AM, NotALoserLikeYou said:

Those flds hair videos were made a long time ago, for the flds. Some ex flds person put them online - not the flds. The main narrator (see video 1), Marjorie I think her name is, left the flds and has a Facebook. 

The people of the flds are leaving in droves or have been kicked out. We are talking people who have been in it their whole lives, in their 60s.

i have a friend who was kicked out five years ago. His dad was kicked out in his 60s for admitting to having had sex with a wife when she was pregnant. That's not allowed. Procreation only no pleasure. Whole family shattered. Had six wives now he has none. My friend was kicked out for admitting to having masturbated. They interrogate you for hours tricking you into confessing something because otherwise you'll go to hell. His wife and six kids wouldn't leave with him because they were devoted to the church - just as he had instructed them to be! They did leave a year later but she overdosed on the freedom and got divorced. The amount of stories I have heard about families being ripped apart makes me ill. Most of the men are good fathers and people and had no idea about people marrying 12/13 year olds. "Sheltered" doesn't even begin to describe it. They are more like slaves.

But now so many are leaving and there are many willing to help them. There hasn't been a marriage performed in a decade. You've got that whole seed bearer thing happening. The older people are the ones who remember a different time and who are leaving. Most married for love and many marriages survive after leaving. A big problem was kicking out all the men and then just reassigning the wives. The younger ones have been so brainwashed.

a good Facebook group to follow is "creeker community bulletin board" you don't have to join to view. 

 

Sorry if it was posted but here's a recent article that is interesting

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/05/us/flds-secrets-warren-jeffs/

off to fb for "the creeker community bulletin board" thanks for this and the sad synopsis of kindhearted humans trying to find their place in this scary world, only to be lured into something so much more scary and being paralyzed from escaping.

 

[NeverAFundie]

Having followed the FLDS ridiculousness for years via news stories, I finally checked out the electronic audiobook of Rebecca Musser's memoir last night.  I made it through the first three chapters on my drive to see my gentleman friend (who, incidentally, lives down the road from Joshley's faux rehab).  Fascinating, heartbreaking, and vomit-worthy in places.  I hope Warren Jeffs is living his own kind of special hell in prison every. damn. day.

[refugee]

21 hours ago, amandaaries said:

That could have been it, too.  Insufficient sleep is not helping my memory these days.  Regardless, pretty sure Jeffs saw (and still sees) himself on par with both of these divine, prophesied leaders.  

I am haunted by the scene in The Witness Wore Red, the recording of Jeffers' holy sex session with the 12yo.

Is he being held in solitary, to keep him away from the retribution I hear about, that child-rapists are offered in prison?

[kettlingur]

Ok, so I know this article is about Followers of Christ rather than th FLDS, but I saw the baby graveyard and instantly linked it to this post, I don't mean to go off topic. It's just horrifying. I don't know how the FLDS are about seeking medical attention, but because of the Followers of Christ's INSANE beliefs, so many of these children's deaths were entirely and simply preventable. How could you blame a baby's death on a 5 year old not praying hard enough?? It's worth noting that this article describes serious medical negligence and abuse.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/13/followers-of-christ-idaho-religious-sect-child-mortality-refusing-medical-help?CMP=fb_gu

[NeverAFundie]

I have fallen DEEP down the Rebecca Musser rabbit hole today, and came across this (I did a quick forum search and didn't see prior discussion of this):

http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Todd-Wall&lc=6897&pid=176125404&mid=6636176

My understanding is that in her book, Rebecca uses the pseudonym "Cole" for her brother Todd.  So, this was the brother with whom she sought refuge after she fled Short Creek.  She write in her book about how poor his health was.  I'm sorry to see that he passed, although his self-published "refutation" of some of Rebecca's claims was ridiculously shitty.

The FB page for her Claim Red Foundation shows this post from Rebecca, a couple of weeks after Todd's death:

Claim Red Foundation

October 27, 2015 · 

Thank you for your prayers and support during this difficult time for our family.

Todd recognized the far-reaching struggles produced by unnecessary childhood trauma, and fought hard to break free from his past. He was an avid student of critical thinking and human psychology, and always sought practical, hands-on tools to help him move forward through life.

Todd attended and helped facilitate several of my events, offering positive familial support, something I will dearly miss.

I know Todd would want us to continue along our mission of creating positive change in the world, fighting ignorance through valid education, and breaking free from the cycle of abuse.

I'll forever keep Todd's memory in my heart as we move forward.

-RM

***

I hope Todd was able to find some peace, and maybe even some joy, in his adulthood.

[FundieFarmer]

Does anybody else notice something very different in the younger girls to the right of this photo when compared to the older woman at the left? The image comes from this article. I see sneaky glances directly into the camera, with curiosity...I see rolled up sleeves and I see laughter. What I don't see is the traditional hiding FLDS woman (even in some of the other photos), and I don't see the complete fear I'm used to seeing. I wonder if the winds of change are blowing wider than we thought. 

[bertnee]

If only we could talk to the Jolly Gel Gals...

[NeverAFundie]

14 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

Does anybody else notice something very different in the younger girls to the right of this photo when compared to the older woman at the left? The image comes from this article. I see sneaky glances directly into the camera, with curiosity...I see rolled up sleeves and I see laughter. What I don't see is the traditional hiding FLDS woman (even in some of the other photos), and I don't see the complete fear I'm used to seeing. I wonder if the winds of change are blowing wider than we thought. 

I sure hope so.  At some point, with many of the top elders in jail and a large percentage of younger men banished from the church to reduce competition for wives, one would hope that at the very least, the women and girls in the group will start to feel less constrained as time goes by.

[mamallama]

In a twisted way the ban on sex may be saving them from a sexual relationship not of their chosing.

[DaisyD]

2 hours ago, FundieFarmer said:

Does anybody else notice something very different in the younger girls to the right of this photo when compared to the older woman at the left? The image comes from this article. I see sneaky glances directly into the camera, with curiosity...I see rolled up sleeves and I see laughter. What I don't see is the traditional hiding FLDS woman (even in some of the other photos), and I don't see the complete fear I'm used to seeing. I wonder if the winds of change are blowing wider than we thought. 

You know what else appears to be (mostly) missing? Perfect ovals, or whatever that hypnotizing voice called the poof on their heads.

I agree that the ban on sex is probably a good thing (other than the awful seed bearer shit, which is hopefully as unsuccessful with everyone as it was with the one woman mentioned).

[Inthemadhouse]

I thought their special underwear covered from ankles to wrists and had to be kept secret at all times. I wonder if the rules on wearing it have been relaxed, or at least they can wear the short sleeve version.

That child in the hair video reminded me of a Toddlers and Tiaras contestant.  Same beautiful, bored looking child having her hair teased into some sort of monstrosity.

[Cleopatra7]

4 minutes ago, Inthemadhouse said:

I thought their special underwear covered from ankles to wrists and had to be kept secret at all times. I wonder if the rules on wearing it have been relaxed, or at least they can wear the short sleeve version.

That child in the hair video reminded me of a Toddlers and Tiaras contestant.  Same beautiful, bored looking child having her hair teased into some sort of monstrosity.

I were to take a guess, you can probably roll up the sleeves if/when it gets hot. The drawings I've seen of the pre-1975 garments, which is what I assume the FLDS wears, indicates that they're like a one-piece union suit from the nineteenth century with quasi-Masonic symbols on the breast area, so the sleeves should be able to move up and down. I'm sure FLDS members have figured out how to do this without exposing the garments themselves.