Investigation of FLDS Graveyard of Babies Born of Incest

[Gellhorn]

8 hours ago, DaffyDill said:

It's so sick and twisted. I saw a documentary about the FLDS, and Flora Jessop was in that baby cemetery - it was heartbreaking. She was visibly upset IIRC, and understandably so. Those little graves seem as though they're not tended at all, just forgotten, there in that dry, dusty sad little cemetery  

Was it this video?

http://www.wow.com/video/518094440

[DaisyD]

The really sad thing is that this may be the last generation that's even able to understand the concept of genetics. It seems that so many of the recessive genetic diseases have low IQ as a side effect. They are literally turning into sheep (okay, not literally, but almost). They really are doing a good job of hiding it. I live in a place that gets quite a few visits from these families and I've never seen what this doctor described as the outward symptoms. 

[Foudeb]

Those poor children. and in this day and age too, when we know exactly what is causing this and how to prevent it.

[16strong]

4 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

The really sad thing is that this may be the last generation that's even able to understand the concept of genetics. It seems that so many of the recessive genetic diseases have low IQ as a side effect. They are literally turning into sheep (okay, not literally, but almost). They really are doing a good job of hiding it. I live in a place that gets quite a few visits from these families and I've never seen what this doctor described as the outward symptoms. 

The baby graveyard is sad, but what's really sad is the children living with the consequences of inbreeding. Who knows what physical and mental ailments they suffer from on a daily basis. When these children reach childbearing age, what will happen to their children? Will they even be capable of caring for them? And the poor moms who have multiple disabled children and no access to good healthcare. It is all so sad.

[SilverBeach]

13 hours ago, daisyd681 said:

I started typing out some of the ways they dealt with some of these babies, then decided it was too graphic. Let's just say that not all of the ones with obvious birth defects died from natural causes. It's so horrible. 

Yes, I think Warren decided that if he couldn't have it, no one could. 

One of the FLDS escapee books I read described a sadistic "nurse" on the compound who was in charge of the labor and delivery building. If this monster didn't feel like delivering, she would make the woman, in active labor, sit up in a hard chair. Babies were of course injured and killed and buried out back. I think the inbreeding has caused mental damage as well.  I hate the FLDS with the heat of a million suns. It makes me cry to think of those women and children suffering at the hands of the king of false prophets and sexual predators, Warren Jeff's. 

[16strong]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

One of the FLDS escapee books I read described a sadistic "nurse" on the compound who was in charge of the labor and delivery building. If this monster didn't feel like delivering, she would make the woman, in active labor, sit up in a hard chair. Babies were of course injured and killed and buried out back. I think the inbreeding has caused mental damage as well.  I hate the FLDS with the heat of a million suns. It makes me cry to think of those women and children suffering at the hands of the king of false prophets and sexual predators, Warren Jeff's. 

If you can remember the name of the book, I'd be really interested in reading it.

[VaSportsMom]

If you can remember the name of the book, I'd be really interested in reading it.

I think it is "I Fired God" by Jocelyn Zichterman

[DaffyDill]

11 hours ago, Gellhorn said:

Was it this video?

http://www.wow.com/video/518094440

No, it was an older one, featuring Flora, and how she is available to help people who run from the FLDS. I thin she had a young girl staying with her, who she (Flora) hoped would stay and get her life together. 

Flora had darker, longer hair than the video you linked to, and was driving this truck around, talking about the FLDS etc. She had this leather jacket slung over her shoulder, a pack of cigarettes, and showed the loaded pistol she took everywhere with her.

The name of the doc just escapes me...

[Cleopatra7]

It seems clear to me that the mounting genetic disorders may be what finally ends Mormon fundamentalism. While there are probably a couple of converts like Kody Brown to polygamy (although since he's from "pioneer stock," he's probably distantly related to some or all of his wives), most seem to come from a handful of families who don't trust fundamentalists from other groups or communities, and the gene pool is just saying "enough."

[missegeno]

10 minutes ago, DaffyDill said:

No, it was an older one, featuring Flora, and how she is available to help people who run from the FLDS. I thin she had a young girl staying with her, who she (Flora) hoped would stay and get her life together. 

Flora had darker, longer hair than the video you linked to, and was driving this truck around, talking about the FLDS etc. She had this leather jacket slung over her shoulder, a pack of cigarettes, and showed the loaded pistol she took everywhere with her.

The name of the doc just escapes me...

It's beyond bedtime for me at the moment, so I don't have time to watch through it now. But your description reminds me of Colorado City and the Underground Railroad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ssYXu3qcS8&list=PL678EB490960812FA

[SilverBeach]

2 hours ago, 16strong said:

If you can remember the name of the book, I'd be really interested in reading it.

I'll ask my daughter, we have read quite a few. 

[16strong]

2 hours ago, VaSportsMom said:

I think it is "I Fired God" by Jocelyn Zichterman

Thank you! I will be adding this to my reading list.

[Mary C Doates]

18 minutes ago, 16strong said:

Thank you! I will be adding this to my reading list.

I think Zichterman's book is about a fundamentalist Baptist group (I may be wrong--haven't read it in a while). I think the FLDS book may be Flora Jessop's Church of lies, which is about her experiences in Colorado Cory/Hildale. I recall her writing about living in Roy and Lydia Jessop's household.

[Inthemadhouse]

As gross as I find pretty much everything about the FLDS, those are some odd examples.  There is nothing incestuous about a man marrying sisters, unless the sisters are engaging in sexual intercourse (though I do wonder how many men encourage this among their wives.  When your husband is drunk on the power of being told he's God and you are his property to do as he wishes with, I'm sure many bizarre things happen.), and there is nothing incestuous about brothers marrying sisters.  Down the road, both practices will limit the gene pool, especially with the extremes the FLDS take it to, but there is nothing wrong with them on their own.
If your small society has an entire graveyard dedicated to just babies, you're doing something very, very wrong.

[DaisyD]

They aren't supposed to engage in more than husband and one wife at a time, but then Warren made up his Sarah's law awfulness, so I suppose your scenario is also quite plausible. The examples were given from a genetics standpoint to explain how these two families are actually just one family now. Because they had multiple brothers marry multiple sister's several generations ago they are all actually Jessop-Barlow or Barlow-Jessop. Doing my family genealogy I found out that my parents are related. 7 generations ago are sisters. One descended to my mom and the other to my dad. That's enough generations removed to not be a problem (there's enough other genetic material mixed in by that point that it doesn't really count). The FLDS are not. There grandparents are double cousins, making them first and second cousins. 

[countressrascal]

All I can say is that the article is true-Count and I owned a medical clinic in the area for 25+ yrs and saw things that would shock the world regarding genetic in breeding I was part of Dr Taby's investigative team, then worked with the CRS (Children Rehabilitative Services) and AZ medical program to treat children that have congenital diseases, majority of our patients were FLDS. Sad part of all of this was the families that would let their children die due to lack of medical care because there were too many. We tried to get them to do genetic testing/counseling no way, however there was some light -women after the second special needs child would ask about birth control. 

In my professional opinion they need to go away. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, Inthemadhouse said:

As gross as I find pretty much everything about the FLDS, those are some odd examples.  There is nothing incestuous about a man marrying sisters, unless the sisters are engaging in sexual intercourse (though I do wonder how many men encourage this among their wives.  When your husband is drunk on the power of being told he's God and you are his property to do as he wishes with, I'm sure many bizarre things happen.), and there is nothing incestuous about brothers marrying sisters.  Down the road, both practices will limit the gene pool, especially with the extremes the FLDS take it to, but there is nothing wrong with them on their own.
If your small society has an entire graveyard dedicated to just babies, you're doing something very, very wrong.

The problem with the FLDS inbreeding is that there is no structure or limits at all to it. Relatives reproduce willy nilly. Mothers and sons seem to be the only variation not practiced. So these brothers and sisters likely already share too much DNA even if technically they are in different families. Not at all like two brothers marrying two sisters outside of the cult.

They are indeed doing something very, very wrong.  Their whole way of life, if you can call it that.

[DaffyDill]

1 hour ago, Inthemadhouse said:

As gross as I find pretty much everything about the FLDS, those are some odd examples.  There is nothing incestuous about a man marrying sisters, unless the sisters are engaging in sexual intercourse (though I do wonder how many men encourage this among their wives.  When your husband is drunk on the power of being told he's God and you are his property to do as he wishes with, I'm sure many bizarre things happen.), and there is nothing incestuous about brothers marrying sisters.  Down the road, both practices will limit the gene pool, especially with the extremes the FLDS take it to, but there is nothing wrong with them on their own.
If your small society has an entire graveyard dedicated to just babies, you're doing something very, very wrong.

Well that's it in a nutshell. They're pretty much all descended from the same Barlow and Jessop ancestors who carried a gene for fumarase deficiency. And because they keep breeding close family members to close family members to "keep the bloodline pure" and don't want outsiders to "taint" the bloodlines, the gene for fumarate deficiency is appearing in more and more of them.

Not all communities are as irresponsible. The Ashkenazi Jewish population, where the community was struck by a recessive genetic disorder resulting Infantile Tay-Sachs disease in children who, after the first few months of life can become blind, deaf, atrophied, unable to swallow, and die a rather awful death before the age of four, are different. The organisation Dor Yeshorim carries out genetic screening so that couples with Tay-Sachs can either choose to not marry, or marry but not have children. The Asknenazi Jewish population appear to have been thankful for the genetic screening, unlike the FLDS who refuse to participate, and see their chronically ill infants and children as a test from God.

[ADoyle90815]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

The problem with the FLDS inbreeding is that there is no structure or limits at all to it. Relatives reproduce willy nilly. Mothers and sons seem to be the only variation not practiced. So these brothers and sisters likely already share too much DNA even if technically they are in different families. Not at all like two brothers marrying two sisters outside of the cult.

They are indeed doing something very, very wrong.  Their whole way of life, if you can call it that.

I agree, if your community has a cemetery for infants and small children, you're doing something very wrong. I think it was Carolyn Jessop who said in her book Escape that often, the mother is blamed for having a special needs child, as she went through that when she had a son with severe disabilities. I don't remember if it's the disability that those in the cult are most vulnerable to, but it was obviously a result of inbreeding. I think at some point, the FLDS cult will just implode because of the inbreeding going on, since Warren Jeffs has his communications watched to see if he would order a Jonestown like tragedy, which is something I think he's capable of doing.

[Rowan]

5 hours ago, ADoyle90815 said:

I agree, if your community has a cemetery for infants and small children, you're doing something very wrong. I think it was Carolyn Jessop who said in her book Escape that often, the mother is blamed for having a special needs child, as she went through that when she had a son with severe disabilities. I don't remember if it's the disability that those in the cult are most vulnerable to, but it was obviously a result of inbreeding. 

It was a brain tumor or cancer of some sort. (Recently re-read it, but don't have it available to reference.) 

What really struck me from the article was the comment about how the woman who escaped didn't realize it was unusual (and wrong) for so many babies and young children to die - that most people in the outside world who die are a lot older. It really shows how closed off they are.

[apple1]

10 hours ago, Mary C Doates said:

I think Zichterman's book is about a fundamentalist Baptist group (I may be wrong--haven't read it in a while).

Zichterman does not discuss FLDS. I have multiple issues with Zichterman as an "expert" on IFB, also. (previously discussed on FJ more than once, but not bringing that discussion into this thread; she's OK telling her own story, but not everyone else's)

[mausi]

On 3 April 2016 at 2:00 AM, sawasdee said:

I really think that Warren Jeffs has lost whatever tenuous hold he still had on sanity. He has issued some astoundingly odd edicts from prison - banning not just toys, but many foods, including chocolate, the internet, tv, - in effect, anything enjoyable. It's almost as though he is testing how far he can go before his followers refuse to obey.

If his brother Lyle, who carries word of Warren's decisions and enforces them, is imprisoned as a result of the conspiracy and fraud charges now outstanding against him, will the FLDS implode? Most of the leadership appears to be charged alongside Lyle - who would be left to run this craziness?

Please let them all be found guilty......

Banning the internet makes sense, in that weird perverted way. Too much opportunity to dig for information. Too many chances for free thinking. 

Sadly, there is always someone who will step up in a power vacuum. 

[missegeno]

I just rewatched the documentary that I posted (Colorado City and the Underground Railroad) and I didn't notice any segments with Babyland. But it seems about the right timepoint for the @DaffyDill description, so I'll keep looking for other videos from around 2008. I've found lots of old gems from those days, but not much else with Flora on YouTube from 2008 from a search of "FLDS" (I just realized, as I almost abbreviated her name, that she has the same initials as Free Jinger!).

Flora may not be super prevalent in videos from 2008, but Mr. BnB, Willie Jessop, in his old role as Warren's croney, sure is! He's in that doc I linked, as well as a number of shorter videos where he stands at a podium and talks about how horrible it was that the state "kidnapped" FLDS children.

Spoiler

Further, these two blog posts go into more detail about how some of the kids die, and suggest that the many of the children in babyland were likely murdered (lots and lots of toddlers getting run over by cars, downing large quantities of foul-tasting chemicals, etc).

http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/polygamists-cemetery-why-are-so-many.html

Flora's letter doesn't seem to be up on the original site anymore, but one of the commenters here pulled it up:

http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/reader-needing-answers.html

This site has collected many articles referring to Babyland over the years:

http://www.childbrides.org/abuses.html

Lastly, I found a documentary I somehow had never seen before, Damned to Heaven:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2556-flds-damned-to-heaven-documentary

[Alicja]

This is disgusting. How does the state allow this to go on???

[ScreamingIzzy]

2 minutes ago, Alicja said:

This is disgusting. How does the state allow this to go on???

It's politics. Put the right amount of money in the right number of hands: and you're golden. OR get some good dirt on a politician and blackmail them.

I'm getting real fed up with how women and children suffer when men have absolute power.