Investigation of FLDS Graveyard of Babies Born of Incest

[NeverAFundie]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I were to take a guess, you can probably roll up the sleeves if/when it gets hot. The drawings I've seen of the pre-1975 garments, which is what I assume the FLDS wears, indicates that they're like a one-piece union suit from the nineteenth century with quasi-Masonic symbols on the breast area, so the sleeves should be able to move up and down. I'm sure FLDS members have figured out how to do this without exposing the garments themselves.

Lord only knows what the rules are for church members this week, but Rebecca Musser's book is clear--she was chastised multiple times for rolling her sleeves up, and that was when she was a schoolgirl (before she was one of the prophet's wives).

I continue to hope that the winds of change are starting to blow.  Multiple escapees have talked about how before Rulon and Warren, there was still music, and laughter, etc.  They were able to watch television shows like Little House on the Prairie.  Not all secular entertainment was forbidden.  So much of the completely over-the-top batshit crazy stuff came about with Warren, after Rulon suffered a stroke a few years before he actually died.  It wasn't until well into Warren's reign of terror that shit like "children may not play with toys" came about.

[Cleopatra7]

19 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

Lord only knows what the rules are for church members this week, but Rebecca Musser's book is clear--she was chastised multiple times for rolling her sleeves up, and that was when she was a schoolgirl (before she was one of the prophet's wives).

I continue to hope that the winds of change are starting to blow.  Multiple escapees have talked about how before Rulon and Warren, there was still music, and laughter, etc.  They were able to watch television shows like Little House on the Prairie.  Not all secular entertainment was forbidden.  So much of the completely over-the-top batshit crazy stuff came about with Warren, after Rulon suffered a stroke a few years before he actually died.  It wasn't until well into Warren's reign of terror that shit like "children may not play with toys" came about.

It's amazing how much the rules of the FLDS have changed in such a short period of time. I wonder if some of the older members realize that and have any kind of cognitive dissonance or do they just think that whatever the prophet says at any given time is "the truth."

[NeverAFundie]

Some of the convicted church elders will be approaching their release dates later this year and next year, although most of them got loooooong sentences and will be lucky to be out before they die. Barring an overturning of his verdict and/or sentence, Warren will die in jail.  Warren is obviously still running things from jail, but one has to wonder at what point the power vacuum is going to make the whole thing implode.  Particularly with the federal civil rights verdict last month against the two towns that comprise Short Creek; that judge will decide the "sentence" in the coming months.  My own opinion is that the judge will order the towns into some sort of receivership, and place them under state or federal control (my hope is federal control, considering how long Utah and Arizona allowed abuse to go on in the towns, unchecked--remember that it was TEXAS that finally tightened the noose on these assholes).  I also believe that the verdict against the the towns will be the groundwork for individual federal criminal civil rights violation charges against remaining church leaders.  I think the best case scenario is that once the church no longer controls local government and the local police forces, it will be easier for people who want to leave, to actually escape.

[snickerz]

Now you, too, can be a cult leader in your very own compound! http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/07/02/polygamist-ranch-for-sale-in-texas/

[NeverAFundie]

21 minutes ago, snickerz said:

Now you, too, can be a cult leader in your very own compound! http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/07/02/polygamist-ranch-for-sale-in-texas/

And not a nibble, as far as I can tell.

Famed ex-FLDS thug Willie Jessop bought some of Warren's stuff at auction last year, including the red Escalade Warren was riding in when he was arrested, and bought some of Warren's Short Creek real estate in 2013. The auctions included contents of the vehicle and buildings, but it also came with a warning that taking possession of anything purchased could be, uh, challenging.  The real estate is smack dab in the middle of FLDS property in Short Creek, and was functionally under the control of the church.  I recall that it took quite some time for Willie to negotiate taking possession of the real estate, and that the cult did not agree to let him enter the property until he agreed to let them remove certain contents.  He has since turned it into, no lie, America's Most Wanted Suites and Bed & Breakfast.  There was also debate as to what was included in the "Escalade contents," because so much of the contents ended up as evidence in numerous criminal trials; those were issues Willie was told he would have to work out with the FBI.  Last year when he purchased the Escalade, Willie said that he planned to put the Escalade on display at the B&B (naturally).

[samira_catlover]

Just read the Breitbart article on the YFZ ranch.  Am I the only weirdo here who is having mad fantasies about hitting a big lottery, buying the whole shebang, and turning it into a naughty site----maybe a BDSM club or a fantastic nudist camp?

[DaisyD]

You'd have plenty of soundproof rooms for a dungeon...

[iheartchacos]

I live in Texas and if I wasn't black is be planning a way to infiltrate that compound. I need to know more.

[EyeQueue]

3 hours ago, samira_catlover said:

Just read the Breitbart article on the YFZ ranch.  Am I the only weirdo here who is having mad fantasies about hitting a big lottery, buying the whole shebang, and turning it into a naughty site----maybe a BDSM club or a fantastic nudist camp?

A naughty site that caters to women. And you could call it:

SheBang

[gibbsgirls]

4 hours ago, samira_catlover said:

Just read the Breitbart article on the YFZ ranch.  Am I the only weirdo here who is having mad fantasies about hitting a big lottery, buying the whole shebang, and turning it into a naughty site----maybe a BDSM club or a fantastic nudist camp?

I'm down for the nudist camp.  We'd need to install loads of shade structure though.

[DaffyDill]

Did anyone else see on the Creeker Community Bulletin Board on Facebook that one of Michael Cawley's wives is missing???

Michael Cawley was the creepy husband of 3 wives, and the father of Rose, who sought guidance from an elder (possibly her  own grandfather) about finding a husband. He and his family featured in the TV series Men With Many Wives (that was it's name on Australian TV), along with Hyram Timson and his new wife Kellie, and Isaiah Thompson and his wives Marleen and Rebecca.

Anyway, there's a post saying Connie Cawley is missing, which was posted yesterday. Apparently, she left the house on foot to go for a walk and hasn't been seen since.

I wonder if she has left? I certainly hope nothing bad has happened to her.

ETA: Connie was found, last night, dehydrated, but otherwise OK. 

[Bethella]

@DaffyDill

 

[BabyBottlePop]

On 4/12/2016 at 1:47 PM, amandaaries said:

For those of you interested in more about the 4 O'Clock Murders and the LeBaron clan, I highly recommend Irene Spencer's memoirs, Cult Insanity and Shattered Dreams.  Lots of in-depth depictions of a pretty horrific and incredibly tough life.  Another good one is God's Brothel, by Andrea Moore-Emmett, which has a variety of short stories from women who left various polygamous Mormon sects.

ETA: Forgot to mention Favorite Wife, by Susan Ray Schmidt, who was a sister wife to Irene Spencer (but lived rather a different lifestyle, due to her favored status).

Also, just to clarify, Warren Jeffs was caught in a red Escalade.  Just wanted to point that out, since it is such an incredibly expensive car, and when he was finally discovered, he also had tons of letters from his followers, none of which he'd read.  He's just slit the envelopes to extract their "tithes" and left the rest undisturbed and unread.  He is horrific beyond words. 

I just finished The Sound of Gravel by Ruth Wariner. She's the daughter of Joel LeBaron and grew up on Colonia LeBaron. It's more about living in the poverty of the group instead of the group dynamics, but very fascinating and very sad as a study of abuse and power.

I read God's Brothel as well. It's a little volume but very heavy and sad.

I love reading cult memoirs or memoirs about the FLDS. I just got Heaven's Harlots, about the Children of God cult, but haven't started it yet.

[seattlechic]

Ting to get a hold of those books, requested some. My library doesn't have God's Brothel at all. It so have TWO versions of Favorite Wife, a 2006 and a 2009. Are they the same?

[BobTheWalrus]

On 02/04/2016 at 0:48 AM, Dandruff said:

This is some sick shit.

I am not the Lord (last time I checked, anyway), however:

Commandment #11:  Thou shalt not molest thy sisters or daughters, nor violate them by any other means.

I believe He would approve.

He does. It's not in the 10 commandments but Leviticus 18 has it covered.  In fact verse 6 sums it up nicely:

"No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations."

[BobTheWalrus]

On 04/04/2016 at 5:14 PM, Alicja said:

This is disgusting. How does the state allow this to go on???

Freedom of religion.  I wish I was joking but I'm not.  That's one of the main defences of polygamy, despite it being illegal - everyone knows it is but no-one will ever push for prosecution because the freedom of religion argument gets pulled out and trumps everything else, unless abuse can be proven.  It's literally this year that i have heard anything about applying the law on polygamy.

[missegeno]

Just read the Breitbart article on the YFZ ranch.  Am I the only weirdo here who is having mad fantasies about hitting a big lottery, buying the whole shebang, and turning it into a naughty site----maybe a BDSM club or a fantastic nudist camp?

I am all for consensual bdsm. Sadly, I think those walls were already designed and used for bondage, domination, and sadism (the tape of the 12year old was at yfz, if I remember correctly).

[NeverAFundie]

2 hours ago, missegeno said:

I am all for consensual bdsm. Sadly, I think those walls were already designed and used for bondage, domination, and sadism (the tape of the 12year old was at yfz, if I remember correctly).

And let us not forget what Warren wrote in his very own "priesthood records" when describing a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL that he intended to marry.

"If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree."

[quincygal]

22 hours ago, seattlechic said:

Ting to get a hold of those books, requested some. My library doesn't have God's Brothel at all. It so have TWO versions of Favorite Wife, a 2006 and a 2009. Are they the same?

I ordered God's Brothel 12 years ago or more off NOW's website.  The author was a former president of Utah NOW I believe.  Andrea Moore-Emmett I believe?

[samira_catlover]

22 hours ago, NeverAFundie said:

And let us not forget what Warren wrote in his very own "priesthood records" when describing a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL that he intended to marry.

"If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree."

(bolding is mine) Who needs a tree?--I have a perfectly good panel truck that can handle a solid rope, and am quite willing to arrange a reasonable drop or pull distance to take out that worthless SOB and his colleagues, if he/they wasn't/weren't in prison for hopefully years and years and years to come. (Yes, that IS a menacing statement, and I accept the risks of posting on the Eternal Internet. But damn it, 13 is majorly kidly where I came from: wayyyyyy too young for basic sexual expression with another person, much less taking on the risks of having children.)

Sorry (well, not really) to be so stabby, but for the sake of dear heaven, teenagers need to worry about Very Important Stuff like getting school papers done, or "eeeeek! does zhe REALLY *like* me?" or "yikes, I have hips, and how can I dress to make them less awful?", or "darn it, I really WANT to be on this school team or project, and am not sure if I can make the cut".  They DO NOT need to be sexual objects. THEY ARE CHILDREN.

Am OK with poly households (provided they can work out the interpersonal dynamics, and the legally stuff like social security, who is on the company insurance, and inheritance rights--multiple adults involved in raising kids does work for me), but children, possibly in the position of raising more children?  YECH. 

[Cleopatra7]

6 hours ago, samira_catlover said:

(bolding is mine) Who needs a tree?--I have a perfectly good panel truck that can handle a solid rope, and am quite willing to arrange a reasonable drop or pull distance to take out that worthless SOB and his colleagues, if he/they wasn't/weren't in prison for hopefully years and years and years to come. (Yes, that IS a menacing statement, and I accept the risks of posting on the Eternal Internet. But damn it, 13 is majorly kidly where I came from: wayyyyyy too young for basic sexual expression with another person, much less taking on the risks of having children.)

Sorry (well, not really) to be so stabby, but for the sake of dear heaven, teenagers need to worry about Very Important Stuff like getting school papers done, or "eeeeek! does zhe REALLY *like* me?" or "yikes, I have hips, and how can I dress to make them less awful?", or "darn it, I really WANT to be on this school team or project, and am not sure if I can make the cut".  They DO NOT need to be sexual objects. THEY ARE CHILDREN.

Am OK with poly households (provided they can work out the interpersonal dynamics, and the legally stuff like social security, who is on the company insurance, and inheritance rights--multiple adults involved in raising kids does work for me), but children, possibly in the position of raising more children?  YECH. 

This is why I don't get these fundies who claim that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to adults marrying children since the only people I know of who want to marry children are other fundies, namely extreme Mormon fundamentalists and Salafi Muslims. Both these groups are extremely unpopular and won't get polygamy legalized any time soon. Those who want same-sex marriage and those who want to marry children are two distinct groups.

[Gellhorn]

On 4/5/2016 at 1:45 PM, refugee said:

I am reminded of a news story I saw once, about a family group (in Turkey? I could be remembering wrong) that walks on all fours (hands and feet) because they are unable to stand upright, due to inbreeding. Frightening to think of the implications for this group of people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/17/the-family-that-walks-on-all-fours-and-why-they-cant-stand-up/

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/463/1/CPNSS2.pdf

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0101758

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5012174/a-genetic-mutation-that-causes-humans-to-walk-on-all-fours

The last link is to a family in Hungary.  I don't know how reliable a source it is though.

[samira_catlover]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

This is why I don't get these fundies who claim that legalizing same-sex marriage will lead to adults marrying children since the only people I know of who want to marry children are other fundies, namely extreme Mormon fundamentalists and Salafi Muslims. Both these groups are extremely unpopular and won't get polygamy legalized any time soon. Those who want same-sex marriage and those who want to marry children are two distinct groups.

Have a beloved friend, who, at the ripe olde age of 36, was involved with a 19-year-old.  She was definitely pretty and fun to be with (for the few months the bond lasted--and it was made clear from the get-go that it would be a "summer fancy", and no hope of anything permanent).  But arm candy, while nice, isn't very sustaining: he realized quickly that they were literally a generation apart, which makes for very tough casual conversations, never mind bonding. Kind of reminds me of the old German proverb, which (roughly translated) comes out as "kissing don't keep: cooking does".

[FundieFarmer]

Wait. I think I've missed something. Where has everyone gone that the whole YFZ ranch is up for sale?

[DaisyD]

I'm not sure. Maybe that's who's in the South Dakota compound? They are still building it.