Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[Granwych]

4 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

The angle / position of the "C" by his ear makes it look like he has an earring at first glance. Could you imagine? 

Hell, Kelly Bradrick has a nose ring.  Anything's possible...

[Withagrainofsalt]

Watching BUB Courtship and Marriage on my DVR tonight and I heard Alyssa say she could handle 8 to 10 kids. It occurred about 26 minutes into the episode.  

[roddma]

Speaking of inviting strangers to parties, didn't Kelly post once send Erin an email and she will send you an invite for the wedding?At least the Duggars learned a little common sense here after letting a woman inwho just showed up at their house. They thought they would try to 'convert' by fellowshipping with her, though it wasn't directly implied, that's the vibe I got. She ended up stealing Jinger's diary. I agree some people are whack jobs

[Thorns]

In the context of social media an invite to a party might not mean an actual real-life real-people party. It might be they have a form of live stream/social media meet kind of thing planned. 

I sincerely hope. 

[HereticHick]

15 hours ago, ilikecheese said:

Is it weird for me to think that Carlin is looking for possible courtship mates at this party? I mean she has just graduated and unfortunately that's the next thing she might want to do in her life. 

I think it is possible that Carlin is going off to PCC in the fall, and UP wants to film this party as part of an "education" focused episode. I think they've learned a lot from Duggar criticism & want to show that they do so care about education.

I think possible courtship mates for Carlin would be far outnumbered  by every conservative Christian tween/teen/young lady in southern Appalachia that wants to attend in order to catch the eye of their crush Lawson.

[THERetroGamerNY]

I have read briefly of the going ons with Gothard thing. If Gil is found out to be guilty as sin, then let the cards fall where they may. I look at like this, let the courts decide on whether he is innocent or guilty. 

I understand that this is your personal feelings on the matter, but let me just offer mine.

I'm not bound by any legal court rulings. In my mind, he's basically guilty. He can even be declared innocent. But so was OJ.

Hell, Gothard skipped away "innocent".

Fundies have this slithery way of coming away all "innocent", and then quietly doing background damage control. Few years later they are as strong as ever.

[Casserole]

wonder when nathan will enter the social media world spewing nasty posts  like his brother?

[what the heck]

I'm sure the graduation party is going to be their debut on Periscope, if it isn't, they did post the invite on April 1.

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, Withagrainofsalt said:

Watching BUB Courtship and Marriage on my DVR tonight and I heard Alyssa say she could handle 8 to 10 kids. It occurred about 26 minutes into the episode.  

She said 10 before being a mom.

Now she's saying 6.

She has explained she had a private bedroom (just for she and Josie), she loves quietly. Also, she workouts to be thin. She is focused in clothes.  Do you really think she wants 6? I hace the feeling she wants few children. She knows there's no time and no money  for gym and dresses and quiet time when you got a big family.

Allie is 1 year  old. Probably new baby is coming soon. But I hope it's because they want,  not because they're forced.

 

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

22 hours ago, crazysnark said:

It was the first steps for me. Once I started questioning my parents rules I started questioning their religion. The rules and the religion seem to be linked. I am 23 and was 19/20 when I started to do the exact same things Alyssa did/does, which is why i have such hope for her. 

I admit I likely over projected with saying she seems to have 'plotted to escape' for some time, but I do think that that she way she seems to be questioning some aspects of her upbringing them is a reasonable enough basis to have some hope for her. 

I don't come from a fundie background, but I am someone who has not always found it easy to stand up for herself and I come from a background where having your own opinions is encouraged and I'm not as supressed by 'jender roles'. So I guess I feel that what might seem like a small step (ie: not keeping sweet and standing up for yourself) can actually feel like bigger steps than they are and can be he catalyst for change and change can take some time. I'm now almost 30 and don't take sh*t from anyone and doesn't care what people think about me, but at 20, I'd basically cry if someone didn't like me and I didn't fit in. 

[choralcrusader8613]

8 minutes ago, what the heck said:

I'm sure the graduation party is going to be their debut on Periscope, if it isn't, they did post the invite on April 1.

This post brings up a question for me (which may be a very stupid one, I admit): do fundie Christians "do" April Fool's Day? On the one hand, it seems like it would play right into certain practical joking instincts of our favorite fundies. On the other hand, it's a holiday based in trickery, which sounds like something they'd say was from Satan.

[what the heck]

7 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

This post brings up a question for me (which may be a very stupid one, I admit): do fundie Christians "do" April Fool's Day? On the one hand, it seems like it would play right into certain practical joking instincts of our favorite fundies. On the other hand, it's a holiday based in trickery, which sounds like something they'd say was from Satan.

I have no clue, I'm sure some do and some don't!

[THERetroGamerNY]

7 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

She said 10 before being a mom.

Now she's saying 6.

She has explained she had a private bedroom (just for she and Josie), she loves quietly. Also, she workouts to be thin. She is focused in clothes.  Do you really think she wants 6? I hace the feeling she wants few children. She knows there's no time and no money  for gym and dresses and quiet time when you got a big family.

Allie is 1 year  old. Probably new baby is coming soon. But I hope it's because they want,  not because they're forced.

Now that the reality of what is expected of her is in the present, and the reality of just one child is with her, she is also probably struggling with some guilt, and indecision, over what to do. So, it's natural to shift from 10 to 6.

Depending on how closely she keeps around her core family, and church, she will feel some strong pressures to be "more godly", and that means letting go of "worldly" things such as gym time, nice clothes, and the "selfishness" of her own peace and quiet. If she expresses concerns over not being able to support many children, that will be rebutted as "not having faith in God's ability to provide".

We also do not know exactly what may be up with fertility issues.

These are internal struggles that a TV show will never capture.

[blessalessi]

21 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

This post brings up a question for me (which may be a very stupid one, I admit): do fundie Christians "do" April Fool's Day? On the one hand, it seems like it would play right into certain practical joking instincts of our favorite fundies. On the other hand, it's a holiday based in trickery, which sounds like something they'd say was from Satan.

I am a very sad person I did a quick search and the Maxhells don't seem even to post blogs at all on April 1. 

I would imagine that the entire concept is at odds with the ones that truly believe in "literal truth".

[Kittikatz]

Long post. My apologies for it, but there was no way I could express my thoughts on this in a shorter format. 

It really dismays me that some posters are judging Alyssa based so much on people she's involuntarily associated with rather than her own actions or beliefs.

We don't know if or how Alyssa and John's belief system has differentiated itself from that of their parents. We can't know how it will evolve in the future.

We do know that Alyssa is woefully uneducated, married young (possibly the first guy she looked at), has expressed opinions that are somewhat contrary to the mainline Gothard crap her parents are so wrapped up in (the significance of these differences is up for debate), seems to have put some boundaries on her relationships with her parents/sibs, isn't afraid to smack down internet trolls and that she has developed a sense of style and decorating - post marriage - that, while not to everyone's taste, is far from frumperlicious. Beyond that, there isn't a whole lot of Alyssa in the public realm.

All we really see of Alyssa and her new family are some carefully crafted, highly superficial Instagram pics, coupled with minimal participation on her parents TV show and in Taliban Dan's campaign bandwagon. Based on the insta pics, the Alyssa Webster crew seems to like dressing up to go to church almost every week. Their daughter appears to have an impressivly snarkworthy array of flower laiden headbands (not that I can snark on flowered headbands for babies, one of my rexes has recently acquired a flowered crochet hat he loves to wear, and I've ordered more, because he's cute as hell and happy in his petals). And she likes Starbucks.

Alyssa does not seem to talk about her deep religious and political beliefs publicly, neither does her husband. Alyssa hasn't (yet) shot off her mouth like Lawson/any Duggar with a social media account, and compared to a lot of twenty somethings (Jessa, Bin, Sierra and more), she does not appear to be seeking out a whole lot of social media fame. 

There is no doubt Taliban Dan is a complete and utter ass. But can you imagine the crapfest any family member of an American politician would have to endure if they publicly opposed said politician (anyone remember Regan's son at the DNC in 84? family dynamics went from bad to poison). Also, John works for Taliban Dan's AC company. We don't know what Allysa and/or John feel about his father's politics, but they have a lot to loose if they rock that boat. All we know is they occasionally show up and smile nice for hayrides and sparkly trips to capital hill.

Gil Bates is a lazy assed grifter and a liar. He is almost certainly racist, morally corrupt and power hungry, and may very well be partially liable for Gothard's continued abuse of young women and girls. I'm not sure how this relates to his adult daughters, we don't even know what, if anything, the Bates daughters know about the scandals, the background around the change in the power structure in the IBLP, or any of Gothard's abuses or the lawsuit(s). While Erin made a small comment on her social media, it wasn't anything substantive, and the none of the Bates are talking details about these elephants in the room...

While I appreciate that many of the survivors of cults on this board did have dramatic breaks from their old belief systems and, all too often, their families, with all due respect, not everyone who leaves a religiously abusive family or cult has this experience.

My escape from the crazy was far from dramatic. I knew from an early age that my beliefs didn't line up with what I was being taught, and quickly learned to shut up, smile and do what I was told around my family, I was careful to look and act the part, and I did it well. Because of this, I wasn't heavily scutinized and was able to experience fragments of something like freedom. The internal scream was constant, and didn't let up until I got away to Uni, where I finally got to figure out who the heck I was, and how to live in a way that works for me. To this day, I have never had a conversation with relative or old friend about my very different beliefs. I don't lie, but I still have long hair, and I like wearing skirts, so most don't see any glaring outward sign of my defection and they assume I'm still somewhat alligned with the group, albeit on the mainstream edge of it. This polite fiction works for me because it allows me to maintain the few family relationships I do have, which, superficial though they may be, are something I value greatly. I think that many people who have made discrete escapes are less visible than other escapees because the nature of the escape means we don't tell our stories for fear of exposing the depth of the chasm between us and whoever we still care for on the inside. While I do care about my old friends and family, I don't trust them, and I don't owe them my truth. Neither does Alyssa owe her family or the world at large whatever her truth may be.

I do believe this when it comes to people leaving cults; If you don't know someone very, very well and/or they don't trust you completely, the adaptations/changes that person makes in their belief systems may be either something that you never see, or, alternately, you never see coming. 

So, for me, I'm going to regognize the pretty poison of the Bates' public image, evil of the Bates' religious beliefs in general and Gil/Dr. Paine/Taliban Dan in particular (and the total douchebaggery of Lawson, who I would dearly love to send a roll of duct tape to), while choosing to be cautiously optimistic about some of the changes we are seeing in the way the way Alyssa and some of her siblings express themselves. These differences may or may not be truly significant, and we may or may not find out as time passes, but brainwashed and uneducated as these young people were/are, they are not their parents, and their experiences are going to be different from those of their parents, so I wouldn't expect them all to go through their lives with the same extremist beliefs as their parents. 

[JMO]

I'm definitely betting the party getting on to the show for next season. I'm betting there will also be a very special announcement too. A baby or Nate's engagement. 

[withaj]

11 hours ago, roddma said:

Speaking of inviting strangers to parties, didn't Kelly post once send Erin an email and she will send you an invite for the wedding?At least the Duggars learned a little common sense here after letting a woman inwho just showed up at their house. They thought they would try to 'convert' by fellowshipping with her, though it wasn't directly implied, that's the vibe I got. She ended up stealing Jinger's diary. I agree some people are whack jobs

I don't remember that, but I do remember Erin posting on Instagram for people (fans) to PM her their addresses if they wanted a copy of Carson's birth announcement. IIRC, she intended to just send as many as she had leftover, but she ended up ordering more to send to everyone who asked.

[Dandruff]

Maybe invitations to the graduation party will be by lottery, kind of like that Day with the Bates thing they did awhile back.

I thought the dinner the kids did for Gil and Kelly was ridiculous, just like the dinner/theater the Duggar kids did for JB and Michelle.  It had to be scripted...I just can't believe the kids are that doting and fawning.  Ugh.

[19 cats and counting]

24 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

There is no doubt Taliban Dan is a complete and utter ass. But can you imagine the crapfest any family member of an American politician would have to endure if they publicly opposed said politician (anyone remember Regan's son at the DNC in 84? family dynamics went from bad to poison). Also, John works for Taliban Dan's AC company. We don't know what Allysa and/or John feel about his father's politics, but they have a lot to loose if they rock that boat. All we know is they occasionally show up and smile nice for hayrides and sparkly trips to capital hill.

 

As a political staffer who's had extensive training classes, I will clarify about politicians and their families.  When it comes to campaign help from loved ones (including friends) the message you give is not "do this because you support my beliefs" but "do this because you love me."   Many of us have politically divided families (my own BIL is a GOP staffer) but would solicit help/donations out of love.  Love is a powerful drug.  Maybe James Carville and Mary Matalin would support each other running for office.

I've worked with a few candidates' family members who could care less about politics, but helped out because a family member was on the ticket.  I haven't encountered one (IRL) who's beliefs (openly) don't allign with the candidate's, but they exist.  

Also in a family where one member has a high political position, members who don't agree usually keep quiet.  For many of us it is easier to shut your mouth than to risk a battle every holiday.

[THERetroGamerNY]

21 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

Long post. My apologies for it, but there was no way I could express my thoughts on this in a shorter format. 

It really dismays me that some posters are judging Alyssa based so much on people she's involuntarily associated with rather than her own actions or beliefs.

We don't know if or how Alyssa and John's belief system has differentiated itself from that of their parents. We can't know how it will evolve in the future.

We do know that Alyssa is woefully uneducated, married young (possibly the first guy she looked at), has expressed opinions that are somewhat contrary to the mainline Gothard crap her parents are so wrapped up in (the significance of these differences is up for debate), seems to have put some boundaries on her relationships with her parents/sibs, isn't afraid to smack down internet trolls and that she has developed a sense of style and decorating - post marriage - that, while not to everyone's taste, is far from frumperlicious. Beyond that, there isn't a whole lot of Alyssa in the public realm.

 

I actually do not see anybody here stating that it is an indisputable fact as to anything going on in any of these people's lives. Again, as I already previously stated: I can only talk about my own personal experiences. And, again, clothing isn't really too much to go on, and neither is "smacking down" internet trolls. This was already discussed.

It's all based on indirect information from what is probably carefully-crafted public appearance, and a reality TV show.

This sort of thing reminds me of the "not all homeschoolers are abused!" comments that some people make, which basically just silences dialog. We are all fully aware that everybody has different experiences in abuse; escape from abuse; experiences in extreme religion; and all of that. That doesn't mean that I will not still give commentary on what perhaps may be going on through her mind. She may be feeling guilt and pressure over the size of her family. She may not. I used words "perhaps" and "depends" in my post. And, again, it's really impossible to say otherwise unless anybody here is intimately familiar with any of the Bates' lives.

You do not have to agree with everything that everybody says, but attempts to hand-slap, or silence dialog, are generally frowned upon here in FJ.

 

[Kittikatz]

@THERetroGamerNY I very sorry that you feel I am attempting to silence dialogue. My intent was quite the opposite. I am trying express that not every cult surviror or escapee processes their experiences or acts in the same way.

Also, we don't know much about many of the adult Bates children's day to day lives. Projecting our individual experiences onto what we see them doing is, IMO, pointless and results in fan or hate fiction and undue attention being paid to them. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

19 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

 Also in a family where one member has a high political position, members who don't agree usually keep quiet.  For many of us it is easier to shut your mouth than to risk a battle every holiday.

One of my best friends has a father who is a member of parliament for a party that my friend has never once voted and she doesn't support a lot of her father's beliefs. Her dad knows that and it isn't really a problem with him. 

Thankfully, politics isn't as much of a dog and pony show circus in Australia as it seems to be in America which makes it a bit easier for her. She moved interstate because it helped her be 'free' from her Dads name (people really only know the name of their local member and then the really prominent ones like the Prime Minister and Treasurer) but when it does come up and people assume she must support him, she is quick to say something like 'people don't always agree with their parents' and then change the subject. 

She is quiet as a church mouse when it comes to posting about politics on social media. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

20 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

@THERetroGamerNY I very sorry that you feel I am attempting to silence dialogue. My intent was quite the opposite. I am trying express that not every cult surviror or escapee processes their experiences or acts in the same way.

Also, we don't know much about many of the adult Bates children's day to day lives. Projecting our individual experiences onto what we see them doing is, IMO, pointless and results in fan or hate fiction and undue attention being paid to them. 

It's all good. =)

[season of life]

12 hours ago, roddma said:

Speaking of inviting strangers to parties, didn't Kelly post once send Erin an email and she will send you an invite for the wedding?At least the Duggars learned a little common sense here after letting a woman inwho just showed up at their house. They thought they would try to 'convert' by fellowshipping with her, though it wasn't directly implied, that's the vibe I got. She ended up stealing Jinger's diary. I agree some people are whack jobs

How did I miss this?!

[PennySycamore]

It's pretty well known that the women in the George (both HW an W) Bush family are pro-choice, but keep quiet about their belief.