Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[HerNameIsBuffy]

55 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Honestly even though Alyssa married into the political family, her brother is worse when it comes to politics because he's starting to open his mouth.  Alyssa didn't openly say that someone should be kept alive even when brain dead (Terri Schaivo).  Alyssa doesn't post conspiracy theories to social media.  Alyssa doesn't dress Allie in pro-life onesies or use her pregnancy as a pro-ife message (Anna Duggar).  I'll give her the benefit of the doubt until she opens her mouth.

As for online polls.  They're useless (as with online petitions).  Did John ask the same thing?  Maybe she did what her headship told her to do?  If she actually believes online polls mean something it's her SOTDRT education at work.  The girl is woefully uneducated, and honestly I don't know how smart she is.

I'm not sure how old John was when Taliban Dan's political career took off, but my bet is that he's just "Dad' instead of Congressman to him.  People of all occupations separate their personal and professional life, and unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume the same for Taliban Dan.

Neat trick of her getting credit for all the things she does which are interpreted as potentially breaking away, but her problematic stuff is probably the headship or just doing it to support family member and politics may have nothing to do with anything.  In a political campaign.

shes young and I'm not even faulting her for not having broken away yet.  I just wish I could somehow get credit for everything I do that people like and they would blame someone else for all my shitty actions.

[DaisyD]

1 hour ago, 19 cats and counting said:

As for online polls.  They're useless (as with online petitions).  Did John ask the same thing?  Maybe she did what her headship told her to do?  If she actually believes online polls mean something it's her SOTDRT education at work.  The girl is woefully uneducated, and honestly I don't know how smart she is.

In which case, that would make her still firmly entrenched in the way she was raised. If she's doing things she doesn't believe in because her headship told her to, then she hasn't really broken away at all.

I don't think it's wrong to hope. The name of this site implies the hope that Jinger Duggar wants out. I just think it's dangerous to believe that what you hope is true has actually taken place when there's no proof. It tends to make people blind to the darkness that's all around the pinholes of light.

[19 cats and counting]

Alyssa's social media is mostly church selfies and pictures of Allie.  Asking people to vote in an online poll (which IIRC her family did too) that means nothing.

Truth be told we don't know the politics of any Bates female.  We know Zach (who's run for office) and Lawson's (opens his mouth) and that's it.  Their idea of campaigning (bringing the Duggar stink bus for a violin concert and waving signs) is not effective but I'm fine with that.  The Paines and Keilens haven't said a word.

Alyssa's barely old enough to drink.  Most people her age haven't formed their political opinion yet and if they vote, it's mostly for their parents' beliefs.  Getting her demographic to vote is like pulling teeth..

I feel like this thread is becoming a circular firing squad.  I just wanted to add some perspective of someone who's worked (in a professional setting) with political candidates and their families about what the dynamics is really like.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

It's no secret I like Alyssa but hear me out - what if by doing that she could look like she supports him and the family would shut up but she's not actually supporting him? Just a thought. I am likely way off but it's fun to speculate.

IF this is true, then she's an immature little hypocrite without the courage of her own convictions or the ability to stand up to family and tell them she doesn't agree with them.  In my opinion.

She and John met when she was volunteering for Dan Webster's last campaign, BTW.  Granted she was younger then and her views may have changed.  It is just that right now there is no evidence that she doesn't agree with all Taliban Dan's views.  I agree with @nausicaa she doesn't seem to be very bright - and certainly isn't well educated.  

[formergothardite]

I still don't understand why people think she doesn't share her FIL's beliefs. What are the signs that despite campaigning for him and showing support, she actually doesn't believe like him and is just faking it? 

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I would be surprised if Alyssa didn't actually believe all the things Taliban Dan stands for. She is probably smart enough not to broadcast it, but I am not sure why people think she doesn't believe like her FIL. She comes from a very fundie background, married into a very fundie family and is campaigning for her very fundie FIL. All signs points towards her actually sharing those beliefs. 

Probably she has Taliban Dan ideas. But I don't think she hides these ideas on purpose. She does not preach, she does not political messages, because she probably doesn't care! I mean, she's a believer, she's conservative, but it doesn't seem to be the center of her life.

According her pictures and words, she cares about husband and child, and fashion and having fun. I'm not praising her neither the opposite. But I find absurd saying that she  hides her opinion in order to attract people to gothardism. It's too weird and Alyssa can be a lot of things, but not weird. I think she's practical and down-to-earth.

Edit for spelling

[withaj]

14 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Ron Reagan, Jr. definitely disagreed with his father's politics.  He kept quiet and did not actively go on the campaign trail, unlike Maureen and Michael.  

I love, love, love the irony that the literal Junior ended up being the one with diametrically opposed political views to his father's. You're right that he was tactful in not speaking openly about it until later.

8 hours ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

Seriously. That becky m lady posts on all of their instagram accountsand she's kinda nuts. She made a comment about how she has to remind herself not to get impatient or upset when they don't respond to her comments in a timely manner. I'd be genuinely concerned about her if I was them  

Becky M is INSANE, and she posts everywhere. Not just Bates and Duggars... pretty much any fundie we talk about who has an Instagram presence. For instance, I was just looking at Ruth Wissman's and she comments there, too. 

[Palimpsest]

9 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I still don't understand why people think she doesn't share her FIL's beliefs. What are the signs that despite campaigning for him and showing support, she actually doesn't believe like him and is just faking it? 

It's called doublethink.

[samurai_sarah]

9 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I still don't understand why people think she doesn't share her FIL's beliefs. What are the signs that despite campaigning for him and showing support, she actually doesn't believe like him and is just faking it? 

I agree with you. Until she comes out, and actively denounces her fundie beliefs, I will remain of the belief that all her changes are outward and cosmetic. There is no proof-positive that anything in her way of thinking has changed.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

32 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Alyssa's social media is mostly church selfies and pictures of Allie.  Asking people to vote in an online poll (which IIRC her family did too) that means nothing.

Truth be told we don't know the politics of any Bates female.  We know Zach (who's run for office) and Lawson's (opens his mouth) and that's it.  Their idea of campaigning (bringing the Duggar stink bus for a violin concert and waving signs) is not effective but I'm fine with that.  The Paines and Keilens haven't said a word.

Alyssa's barely old enough to drink.  Most people her age haven't formed their political opinion yet and if they vote, it's mostly for their parents' beliefs.  Getting her demographic to vote is like pulling teeth..

I feel like this thread is becoming a circular firing squad.  I just wanted to add some perspective of someone who's worked (in a professional setting) with political candidates and their families about what the dynamics is really like.

Of course people support family even if they don't share all core views - no one is arguing that.  But motivations don't negate accountability.  If my bil was running on a Klan platform and I was asking people to vote for him in a poll or marching in a parade to support him how much slack would I get even if I said it was just because...family and doesn't mean I don't share core beliefs.

i don't know what her core beliefs are, heck I don't know if she even has any.  But when you say Zach and Lawson are speaking for themselves on politics but her post about supporting her fil "means nothing" ...youre giving men and their words more authority than hers.

she may or may not truly support her fil - or understand politics at all - but she has to stand and fall on her own words and actions no more and no less than any man in that family.

[JillyO]

Alyssa met John while campaigning for Taliban Dan. She's been photographed at his campaign events. She used her reality TV "fame" to get her fans to vote for him in an online poll about who should be Speaker of the House (not sure if she believed that's actually how the Speaker was chosen or not, but it doesn't really matter, since either way it goes to show that she supports his politics). She's been seen at anti-choice events.

But sure, keep telling yourselves that Alyssa doesn't share and support Taliban Dan's toxic beliefs.

[Palimpsest]

22 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

<snip for space.>

I feel like this thread is becoming a circular firing squad.  I just wanted to add some perspective of someone who's worked (in a professional setting) with political candidates and their families about what the dynamics is really like.

The problem is that these IBLP families are definitely politically active, even if not wildly successful as yet.  They are infiltrating the political arena - see Taliban Dan.  The problem is that these families steeped in Patriarchal thinking don't encourage education, or critical thinking, or children (male or female) not "honoring" the Patriarch for life.

The problem is that the women in these families are taught and brow-beaten into being "submissive" and are supposed to follow their Headships rules in everything - including how they believe, behave, and even how they vote.  This is not something that should be ignored, let alone excused.

Thank you for adding your perspective about the dynamics of political candidates and their families.   You are pretty much saying that these families hide or conceal a lot of what they truly believe just to support the candidate.  And candidates flip-flop and change their beliefs according to what they think will get them elected.  I sort of knew that and don't admire it, but it comes with the territory.

Sorry about the thread drift - but was it you who brought up Matalin and Carville?   I have to admit that I cannot see being married to (or staying married to) someone whose views on politics (and religion) are not very similar to my own.  It is rather important to me because I have strong views.  I can't imagine how Matalin and Carville manage to compartmentalize those beliefs.  Possibly they are just hacks whose personal beliefs are not strongly held - but change with the winds of politics too.

[caszandra]

The thing with Alyssa's social media presence is she shows fluff to her fans but nobody knows what she is saying on her private page, for all anyone knows she is supporting iblp, taliban Dan and more on that page where she won't get flack from the public.

[formergothardite]

7 minutes ago, caszandra said:

The thing with Alyssa's social media presence is she shows fluff to her fans but nobody knows what she is saying on her private page, for all anyone knows she is supporting iblp, taliban Dan and more on that page where she won't get flack from the public.

I'm going to give Alyssa credit for being smarter than some people think because I do think she is well aware that posting controversial things would just attract negative attention and so she, mostly, sticks to fluffy things. And I do think she(along with most of her family) know that a lot of their beliefs are very controversial. 

[19 cats and counting]

I feel that some of these fundie kidults could volunteer for Planned Parenthood and still not win because they haven't yet marched in a gay pride parade or started to feel the Bern.  Hell Erin said she's not affiliated with Gothard and people still doubted her here.  Does she have to wear pants to get  people here to believe her?  Does she have to abort Brooklyn?  Release a piano album of Marilyn Manson covers?

We've publicly wished for Jinger, or Karen Shupe, or Sarah Maxwell to wake up one day and say 'fuck it all' and get the hell out of dodge.  But realistically if one of them breaks free, it will be gradual.  And the older they get (Sarah) the less realistic it is. Marriage is a way to get out of the parental home without losing your entire social circle.  

As for Taliban Dan.  He lost his district.  I hope after November he fades into oblivion after being defeated.  I'd go work for his opponent, but I have zero desire to go anywhere near FL (I despise summer weather).  And I hope the opponent publicizes the Gothard affiliation.

PS-- I was under the impression she met John on a mission trip (or at a wedding).  I remember Kelly saying something about it.

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Hell Erin said she's not affiliated with Gothard and people still doubted her here.  

The reason is because it was a carefully worded statement that didn't actually say she rejected IBLP. Gothard stabbed her dad in the back(after Gil stabbed him in the back) so I would be surprised if any of the family supports him anymore. He has another ministry, so by saying she wasn't associated with him or his ministry, there is a good chance she meant that one. She also said she wasn't a member of ATI, which also means nothing because as a parent to a small baby, she wouldn't be a member of ATI anyway. 

The doubt is because she said nothing that stated she wasn't associated with a harmful cult and since she is still listed as part of the Bates Family advertised at the IBLP Family Conferences, I'm leaning towards her not really having an issue with IBLP, just being pissed at Gothard for providing information that can hurt her father in the lawsuit. I don't think she is dumb and I think she was vague on purpose. 

I do think that in both families the move away from IBLP will probably be slow, but there hasn't been really even any slow movement with most of the adult Bates. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:36 AM, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I admit I likely over projected with saying she seems to have 'plotted to escape' for some time, but I do think that that she way she seems to be questioning some aspects of her upbringing them is a reasonable enough basis to have some hope for her. 

I don't come from a fundie background, but I am someone who has not always found it easy to stand up for herself and I come from a background where having your own opinions is encouraged and I'm not as supressed by 'jender roles'. So I guess I feel that what might seem like a small step (ie: not keeping sweet and standing up for yourself) can actually feel like bigger steps than they are and can be he catalyst for change and change can take some time. I'm now almost 30 and don't take sh*t from anyone and doesn't care what people think about me, but at 20, I'd basically cry if someone didn't like me and I didn't fit in. 

Not understanding how fundies like this can operate can definitely color your thinking/perceptions on what is going on.

Even in other cults, such as Scientology, it is more likely than not that an escape will be a rather abrupt thing, and nothing of any gradual nature. Lisa Remini, in her discussions on what made her break from Scientology is along the same line. She was raised totally in that "church", happily supported it, her mother was in it, etc. One day she was sitting by a "church" pool, watching her daughter swim and it just abruptly crossed her mind: The heck am I doing?!?

It's important to keep in mind that the basic glue that forms a cult is strong familial ties; a very strong fostering of guilt; and some powerful-ass peer pressure. This is just a generalization.

Imagine what you know about peer pressure. Now take that feeling and have somebody you know basically tell you, "If you don't conform to what we do, you're going against God, and you'll go to Hell."

This damaging form of thinking can produce all manner of coping. Ranging from stuff like Michelle Duggar and Kathy's umpteen children, to perhaps even ideas like "Well, if we only have just the ONE kid, and then do a bunch of missionary work in Central America, maybe that'll make God happy." (This is just a theoretical example). Every individual within these circles can have their own unique way of coming to understand/cope with what they believe God wants them to do, but the same core pressures and such are always there around them.

While the idea of a child quietly plotting their escape is theoretically possible - and makes for a rather dramatic story - generally speaking the incredibly-strong desire to be around family, to please family, and to not go to Hell is more than enough to squelch such ideas. Not saying it can't happen, and in fact the sooner one gets away from such circles the better, but I'd rather hedge my bets on a more probable scenario.

[DaisyD]

I would bet money that Gil also says he's not affiliated with Gothard. In fact, I would bet that after this lawsuit the entirety of IBLP says that they are not affiliated with Gothard. It's a classic, legalistic maneuver. Create a scapegoat (in this case the goat does deserve the lion's share of the blame, but still not all of it) and cut it out while never changing the dangerous beliefs that allowed it to happen in the first place. Hell, Gothard did it with his own brother the last time this happened. 

[samurai_sarah]

4 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I feel that some of these fundie kidults could volunteer for Planned Parenthood and still not win because they haven't yet marched in a gay pride parade or started to feel the Bern.  Hell Erin said she's not affiliated with Gothard and people still doubted her here.  Does she have to wear pants to get  people here to believe her?  Does she have to abort Brooklyn?  Release a piano album of Marilyn Manson covers?

(snip)

The statement she made was carefully worded. It amounts to "plausible deniability". She isn't affiliated with ATI, because she isn't home-schooling yet. She isn't affiliated with Gothard, because he's officially out. But she has never actually spoken out, against anything to do with the board of directors.

The doctrine continues, and for all we know, she still supports it. For all we know, right now, she still supports the IBLPS. That, she hasn't spoken out against. And that is an organisation based on Gothard's teachings, and philosophy. It's an organisation that is harmful and hateful.

[elliha]

I have a bit of an interest in the Amish. Most people stay Amish if they were raised Amish but some leave. Some leave to live drastically different lives but some actually move between Amish groups (whether that counts as staying Amish depends on the group they belong to, some see it as just as bad as escaping to become a stripper, others see it as just fine and family ties are maintained in full), become conservative Mennonite or more standard Mennonite. They do not fully reject everything they were taught but there was probably something they wanted to change, in some cases it might be very small things. With this in mind I believe a gradual break to be as possible as a full break. Even if the Bates and Duggar children are sheltered they are not as separate as the Amish so I can very well see some of them staying "technically IBLP" or even leave it officially but stay so close to their parents beliefs that neither they nor us will notice this drift. 

About the Erin comment. The one thing that makes me think that there might be something to her words that means she has actually moved away from it is that fact that Lawson came in and "mansplained" what she really meant and it seemed like he thought what she said was not the right thing. 

[19 cats and counting]

18 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

The problem is that these IBLP families are definitely politically active, even if not wildly successful as yet.  They are infiltrating the political arena - see Taliban Dan.  The problem is that these families steeped in Patriarchal thinking don't encourage education, or critical thinking, or children (male or female) not "honoring" the Patriarch for life.

The problem is that the women in these families are taught and brow-beaten into being "submissive" and are supposed to follow their Headships rules in everything - including how they believe, behave, and even how they vote.  This is not something that should be ignored, let alone excused.

Thank you for adding your perspective about the dynamics of political candidates and their families.   You are pretty much saying that these families hide or conceal a lot of what they truly believe just to support the candidate.  And candidates flip-flop and change their beliefs according to what they think will get them elected.  I sort of knew that and don't admire it, but it comes with the territory.

Sorry about the thread drift - but was it you who brought up Matalin and Carville?   I have to admit that I cannot see being married to (or staying married to) someone whose views on politics (and religion) are not very similar to my own.  It is rather important to me because I have strong views.  I can't imagine how Matalin and Carville manage to compartmentalize those beliefs.  Possibly they are just hacks whose personal beliefs are not strongly held - but change with the winds of politics too.

I've spent the last 8 years of my life working/volunteering for liberal candidates and causes.  Even I don't agree 100% with my candidates all the time, but I understand Frank Underwood's concept of 'voting your district."  A candidate in the Bible Belt can't win by publicly supporting gay rights (at this point in history).

As for the families, many of them are more liberal than the candidate's platform they run on.  On one race I was on, the candidate and his family were to the left of Bernie Sanders but the campaign staff silenced many of those views.  In some cases their contact on behalf of the campaign are only to like-minded groups.  In other cases, a stepchild had to be photoshopped into a family photo.  Outside of family photos, minor children are usually left alone.  There are exceptions when the child him/herself gets involved (Bristol Palin at age 17).  Though I've seen a cute mailer featuring the candidate's toddler daughter holding a sign that says "vote for my daddy."  Before agreeing to run, a candidate needs to have a serious talk with his/her family about what running entails.  Elizabeth Warren and Mike Pence both turned down running for POTUS because of their families.  (This might not apply onto all levels of office but the higher the office the more exposure the family has-- someone running for local office typically does not face these issues).  

My BIL is a GOP staffer.  I keep my mouth shut about politics to him (and my sister) because I would lose access to my nieces if I picked a fight.  

I would not marry (or date) outside of my political beliefs.  (I've met the last 2 guys I dated at political events).   I don't know how James Carville and Mary Matalin do it because I could not.  The sex must be great.

[colors_outside15]

46 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Imagine what you know about peer pressure. Now take that feeling and have somebody you know basically tell you, "If you don't conform to what we do, you're going against God, and you'll go to Hell."

This damaging form of thinking can produce all manner of coping. Ranging from stuff like Michelle Duggar and Kathy's umpteen children, to perhaps even ideas like "Well, if we only have just the ONE kid, and then do a bunch of missionary work in Central America, maybe that'll make God happy." (This is just a theoretical example). Every individual within these circles can have their own unique way of coming to understand/cope with what they believe God wants them to do, but the same core pressures and such are always there around them.

While the idea of a child quietly plotting their escape is theoretically possible - and makes for a rather dramatic story - generally speaking the incredibly-strong desire to be around family, to please family, and to not go to Hell is more than enough to squelch such ideas. Not saying it can't happen, and in fact the sooner one gets away from such circles the better, but I'd rather hedge my bets on a more probable scenario.

To the bolded: yes yes and yes. I don't know a whole lot about peer pressure, but imagine being stuffed inside a tube of toothpaste and forced to act based on your parents squeezing the toothpaste hard as hell so you come out as a straight line or whatever shape they desire on that particular day. And then, try getting your toothpaste self to be a different shape while constantly being stuffed back in the tube. As for coping ... you're not taught how, and if/when you are suffering immensely the habits you develop to get by are extremely harmful. The healthiest I came up with was living for others. And even though I needed to leave to be gone instead of dead when my buddy woke up in our bed, I still want to be back with them because I have children. You see a tiny tiny fraction of what happens in those families, but look at Josie when Alyssa left, Jenni when Jill left, and Callie when Michael left. Do you think it's easy to know you'll never see them again or is it easier to do what you've been trained to do, and has been ingrained in you since birth, even if it's out of a need to see those people? If I could have lived in that house, I would have continued to do so because those Josie/Jenni/Callie tears rip your soul apart.

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Sorry about the thread drift - but was it you who brought up Matalin and Carville?   I have to admit that I cannot see being married to (or staying married to) someone whose views on politics (and religion) are not very similar to my own.  It is rather important to me because I have strong views.  I can't imagine how Matalin and Carville manage to compartmentalize those beliefs.  Possibly they are just hacks whose personal beliefs are not strongly held - but change with the winds of politics too.

I agree on this; can't imagine it.  Mainly because for me, my beliefs (political, religious, environmental, etc) all are extremely important in terms of how I choose to live.  Essentially my beliefs/worldview shape my ethics and my ethics shape my behavior and lifestyle choices.  So while I can chat in a friendly way with those who believe differently than me, I couldn't live with them because my lifestyle and life choices are actively tied to manifesting/demonstrating/living-consistent-with those beliefs. I suppose for some people it's just an aesthetic preference like whether you prefer baseball to football or like blue better than green but that's definitely not true for me.

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I still don't understand why people think she doesn't share her FIL's beliefs. What are the signs that despite campaigning for him and showing support, she actually doesn't believe like him and is just faking it? 

That's the most bizarre argument...that we shouldn't judge the kidults based on their parents' beliefs, even though they've given zero indication that they disagree with those beliefs. If fact, they actively endorse those beliefs by being on the show.

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

It's no secret I like Alyssa but hear me out - what if by doing that she could look like she supports him and the family would shut up but she's not actually supporting him? Just a thought. I am likely way off but it's fun to speculate.

To me, it doesn't matter if she doesn't support him "in her heart" because nobody can see her heart. It's what she does that matters.