Counting On (everyone being civil in...) - part 2

[QuiverDance]

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Dearly beloved. We gather here today to remember QuiverDance, a beloved member of our forum. May she snark in peace. 

I live.  My liver is a wonder.  

I give up trying to edit this post to format the quote boxes right.

[quiverofdoubt]

3 hours ago, Arrowoftruth said:

Okay so I don't have kids so I was wondering why they aren't supposed to wear puffy coats in carseats? Is it suffocation thing or...? What if it's really cold? How are they supposed to stay warm?

The puffy coat will compress in an accident, allowing the child to be ejected from between the straps and from the carseat as a whole. Adults aren't supposed to wear puffy coats either, for the same reason.  A fleece is fine, or a thin sweatshirt. a blanket or coat put over the child is fine. There are cozywoggles you can get that's a carseat safe coat, because of the way is buttons over the straps. Even in our climate, where we can leave the house when it's below zero, the car heater gets the car warm pretty fast.

[Bad Wolf]

Josh made a big point of making sure the kids were wearing jackets when they were in DC. They were in their car seats, can't remember which way they were facing. You really have to keep on top of things and read the directions, because safety rules change as we gain more knowledge.

[Elvis Presby]

My 13 year old, who is just a hair shorter than I, could "technically" still ride in some booster seats.  My 7 year old weighs 1 lb less than my 3 year old nephew.  I would like to keep him in his car seat until he hits 50 lbs, but he may be 8.5 before he reaches that weight.

[ClaraOswin]

2 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

The puffy coat will compress in an accident, allowing the child to be ejected from between the straps and from the carseat as a whole. Adults aren't supposed to wear puffy coats either, for the same reason.  A fleece is fine, or a thin sweatshirt. a blanket or coat put over the child is fine. There are cozywoggles you can get that's a carseat safe coat, because of the way is buttons over the straps. Even in our climate, where we can leave the house when it's below zero, the car heater gets the car warm pretty fast.

I didn't think the coat thing mattered when the car's seat belt is being used since it tightens on impact (5-point harnesses do not.)

[MayMay1123]

1 hour ago, Elvis Presby said:

My 13 year old, who is just a hair shorter than I, could "technically" still ride in some booster seats.  My 7 year old weighs 1 lb less than my 3 year old nephew.  I would like to keep him in his car seat until he hits 50 lbs, but he may be 8.5 before he reaches that weight.

youngest gd is 6.5 y/o and is barely 35 pounds...she might be in a booster until she's able to drive!

[Maggie Mae]

2 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Josh made a big point of making sure the kids were wearing jackets when they were in DC. They were in their car seats, can't remember which way they were facing. You really have to keep on top of things and read the directions, because safety rules change as we gain more knowledge.

Or as the right company lobbies the right politician. 

I'm not opposed to car seats, btw. I just think it's weird that the regulations around car seats are constantly changing and it seems to be "buy more stuff." Whereas the push-back against healthy school foods, getting kids more exercise, trying to get "walking trains" together, etc, is UNREAL. Maybe because buying a new safety device is easier than trying to change people's habits? 

[nastyhobbitses]

10 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Or as the right company lobbies the right politician. 

I'm not opposed to car seats, btw. I just think it's weird that the regulations around car seats are constantly changing and it seems to be "buy more stuff." Whereas the push-back against healthy school foods, getting kids more exercise, trying to get "walking trains" together, etc, is UNREAL. Maybe because buying a new safety device is easier than trying to change people's habits? 

Yeah, and while I'm all for innovations in safety, it can come off as fussy and hysterical (THE THIRD BUCKLE DOWN WAS NOT BLESSED BY THE ANTIPOPE OF AVIGNON NOW YOUR CHILD WILL TURN INTO HUMAN SALSA IF YOU HAVE A FENDER BENDER ALSO YOU BOUGHT THE WRONG KIND OF CAR SEAT PLEASE BUY THIS WAY MORE EXPENSIVE ONE) and I can totally see why some parents might say "eh, fuck it, as long as they're strapped in". Which is what my parents said. My sister and I are very much alive, though my parents grew up in a time when seatbelts were rarely if ever used (my mom told me of her happy memories bouncing around in the front seat while her barely-able-to-drive mother sped down the highway) and kids used plastic bags on their heads to play "spaceman".

I really wish they'd develop a simpler system and find something that works well enough that the changes don't seem to happen every week, or the changes are things that apply to certain situations and can be adopted as needed.

[Apricot]

19 hours ago, Arrowoftruth said:

Okay so I don't have kids so I was wondering why they aren't supposed to wear puffy coats in carseats? Is it suffocation thing or...? What if it's really cold? How are they supposed to stay warm?

This pic illustrates it quite well. 

[lascuba]

4 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Yeah, and while I'm all for innovations in safety, it can come off as fussy and hysterical (THE THIRD BUCKLE DOWN WAS NOT BLESSED BY THE ANTIPOPE OF AVIGNON NOW YOUR CHILD WILL TURN INTO HUMAN SALSA IF YOU HAVE A FENDER BENDER ALSO YOU BOUGHT THE WRONG KIND OF CAR SEAT PLEASE BUY THIS WAY MORE EXPENSIVE ONE) and I can totally see why some parents might say "eh, fuck it, as long as they're strapped in". Which is what my parents said. My sister and I are very much alive, though my parents grew up in a time when seatbelts were rarely if ever used (my mom told me of her happy memories bouncing around in the front seat while her barely-able-to-drive mother sped down the highway) and kids used plastic bags on their heads to play "spaceman".

I really wish they'd develop a simpler system and find something that works well enough that the changes don't seem to happen every week, or the changes are things that apply to certain situations and can be adopted as needed.

Another things is that, yes, proper car seat use is vital, but...1)what are the odd of you getting in an accident to begin with; 2)what are the odds that an accident will be major enough that all those seemingly nit-picky details will make a difference? There are so many other things that likely have worse stats--like food safety and birth practices--that people roll their eyes over, but show them a 5 year old not rear-facing and witness the hysteria. So I can totally see why people don't even want to bother with all the car seat rules.

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

[CharityBear]

7 minutes ago, lascuba said:

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

We have done it this winter with my 3 year old. I don't really consider it an inconvenience because taking her coat off and putting it back on takes about 30 seconds and could potentially save her life. I would feel horrible if I hadn't taken those 30 seconds to take her coat off, ended up in an accident, and had her ejected.

I'm by no means an overprotective mom, but I don't mess around with carseat safety.

[Apricot]

29 minutes ago, lascuba said:

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

I do.  I'd consider myself a lax mum in many ways but I keep blankets in the car and put the heat on.  It's not a massive effort. 

[Felloffthetree]

19 minutes ago, CharityBear said:

We have done it this winter with my 3 year old. I don't really consider it an inconvenience because taking her coat off and putting it back on takes about 30 seconds and could potentially save her life. I would feel horrible if I hadn't taken those 30 seconds to take her coat off, ended up in an accident, and had her ejected.

I'm by no means an overprotective mom, but I don't mess around with carseat safety.

I'm a car seat tech, so definitely not messing around with safety either. My kids know how they're supposed to be in their seats, how tight the harness should be, where the seatbelt should sit, etc. they also know to get in the car that we've warmed up, close the door, and take off their coats or heavy jackets before buckling into their seats. Heck, they also know how to install the seats properly, and secure the top tether, but that's because they've watched me do it and teach it a LOT. They can't actually install the seats, but they know how to.

[NotAnIncubator]

37 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Another things is that, yes, proper car seat use is vital, but...1)what are the odd of you getting in an accident to begin with; 2)what are the odds that an accident will be major enough that all those seemingly nit-picky details will make a difference? There are so many other things that likely have worse stats--like food safety and birth practices--that people roll their eyes over, but show them a 5 year old not rear-facing and witness the hysteria. So I can totally see why people don't even want to bother with all the car seat rules.

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

Just 10 years back when my nephew was born they said to only have him rear-facing for the first year. I couldn't imagine cramming my nephew at 5 years old and 4ft tall into a rear facing carseat. Anything over a booster seat by 5 is just rediculous for the average family IMHO.

[lascuba]

2 minutes ago, NotAnIncubator said:

Just 10 years back when my nephew was born they said to only have him rear-facing for the first year. I couldn't imagine cramming my nephew at 5 years old and 4ft tall into a rear facing carseat. Anything over a booster seat by 5 is just rediculous for the average family IMHO.

I was being a tiny bit hyperbolic with that one. But yeah, I've seen flame wars start because someone innocently posted a picture of their *TODDLER* front facing and, sorrynotsorry, that's ridiculous.

My whole point was that the vast majority of people aren't going to go through the bother so car seat manufacturers need to get on the ball and figure something out. It's just stupid to not design something with winter coats in mind.

[quiverofdoubt]

43 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Another things is that, yes, proper car seat use is vital, but...1)what are the odd of you getting in an accident to begin with; 2)what are the odds that an accident will be major enough that all those seemingly nit-picky details will make a difference? There are so many other things that likely have worse stats--like food safety and birth practices--that people roll their eyes over, but show them a 5 year old not rear-facing and witness the hysteria. So I can totally see why people don't even want to bother with all the car seat rules.

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

Actually, pretty high. Car accidents are the number one cause of death for children under 16. Followed by drowning, then cancer.  Food safety falls way way below that. 

I do agree, the US has terrible birth practices and our maternal death rate is inexcusable.  

The car seat rules don't actually change that often- most of them have been around for quite awhile, it's just that most people are unaware of them. Then when they find out they think it's new.  Most of the rules in fact are printed in the carseat manual, or even the car manual.  They've been recommending rear facing for children under two years for at least 3 years now, for example. Plenty of time to research and find out about the newer convertible seats that are actually fairly comfortable rear facing for a long time.  Switzerland has one of the lowest incidences of child car deaths and injuries in the world, and they've been rear facing kids till 4 years old for decades. 

I've always taken my kid's coat off- guess what? 30 seconds of "hassle" is better than a dead child.  In fact, if we're just walking a short distance in the winter, even if it's really cold, we just don't put coats on. And my car has a heater, which is very nice. More parents should look into that.

[lascuba]

Though I really want to see the demos for carseats. LIke, just how bad do car accidents have to be for front v. rear facing after a year old to matter.

[quiverofdoubt]

5 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Though I really want to see the demos for carseats. LIke, just how bad do car accidents have to be for front v. rear facing after a year old to matter.

What do they say? ask and you shall receive? 

There are many many more.

[lascuba]

3 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Actually, pretty high. Car accidents are the number one cause of death for children under 16. Followed by drowning, then cancer.  Food safety falls way way below that. 

I do agree, the US has terrible birth practices and our maternal death rate is inexcusable.  

The car seat rules don't actually change that often- most of them have been around for quite awhile, it's just that most people are unaware of them. Then when they find out they think it's new.  Most of the rules in fact are printed in the carseat manual, or even the car manual.  They've been recommending rear facing for children under two years for at least 3 years now, for example. Plenty of time to research and find out about the newer convertible seats that are actually fairly comfortable rear facing for a long time.  Switzerland has one of the lowest incidences of child car deaths and injuries in the world, and they've been rear facing kids till 4 years old for decades. 

I've always taken my kid's coat off- guess what? 30 seconds of "hassle" is better than a dead child.  In fact, if we're just walking a short distance in the winter, even if it's really cold, we just don't put coats on. And my car has a heater, which is very nice. More parents should look into that.

How many of those deaths include babies and toddlers not in a carseat at all, though? I really want the tiny details on this. Death of teens is irrelevant if we're talking about carseat safety.

Look, I get it. We can't predict what's going to happen when we're on the road so let's minimize risk. I don't even disagree with it on a personal level. But these things have to make sense to the average person who doesn't have the time or money to keep up with every nit pick the industry throws at them. You can't tell people, "Ok, you paid for that super expensive car seat that's legally required of you and you have it installed correctly...but now you have to do d-z in addition to a,b,c for that.0001% chance that you get run over by a Hummer."

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

How many of those deaths include babies and toddlers not in a carseat at all, though? I really want the tiny details on this. Death of teens is irrelevant if we're talking about carseat safety.

Look, I get it. We can't predict what's going to happen when we're on the road so let's minimize risk. I don't even disagree with it on a personal level. But these things have to make sense to the average person who doesn't have the time or money to keep up with every nit pick the industry throws at them. You can't tell people, "Ok, you paid for that super expensive car seat that's legally required of you and you have it installed correctly...but now you have to do d-z in addition to a,b,c for that.0001% chance that you get run over by a Hummer."

Once you buy the seat there are no other expenses. taking a coat off NOT adding things to the seat (like aftermarket strap pads or inserts), making the chest clip (on american carseats) is at the right place: all free. Leaving the carseat rear facing till your child hits the limits? also free.  

Car accidents are actually very common. Many childhood injuries and deaths are unavoidable. Stuff happens.  But there are obvious places we can make easy improvements, and driving in cars is one place to do that. I let my kid take a lot of risks, and tend to have a free range philosophy. But she is strapped in appropriately in the car, and wears a helmet to ride her bike.

Some random stats i could find, not sure if they are what you were looking for:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-children-at-risk-from-poor-adherence-to-car-seat-guidelines-study-warns/

http://www.carseatsite.com/statistics.htm

http://www.safekids.org/fact-sheet/motor-vehicle-safety-fact-sheet-2015-pdf

[Screamapillar]

Like most posters I remember things like riding unbuckled in the rear facing seat of my Mom's station wagon growing up. Different times. People weren't flying down the road texting and taking selfies behind the wheel in those days.

I'm of the camp of using all safety precautions available because it's better to be safe than sorry. Better to take off the kid's puffy coat and strap them in tightly than live a lifetime of regret if you didn't. Still, when I read that my state recently has proposed to make booster seats necessary for kids up to 12 I kind of chuckled, only because I was picturing 12 year old me back in the day strapped into a booster seat at 5'9. I was like a baby giraffe. I think my head would've been touching the roof. I imagine there's some kind of height/weight guidelines that go along with the booster seat requirements.

[quiverofdoubt]

3 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

Like most posters I remember things like riding unbuckled in the rear facing seat of my Mom's station wagon growing up. Different times. People weren't flying down the road texting and taking selfies behind the wheel in those days.

I'm of the camp of using all safety precautions available because it's better to be safe than sorry. Better to take off the kid's puffy coat and strap them in tightly than live a lifetime of regret if you didn't. Still, when I read that my state recently has proposed to make booster seats necessary for kids up to 12 I kind of chuckled, only because I was picturing 12 year old me back in the day strapped into a booster seat at 5'9. I was like a baby giraffe. I think my head would've been touching the roof. I imagine there's some kind of height/weight guidelines that go along with the booster seat requirements.

Yes, i believe that law was passed with height/weight requirements as the main guideline.  12 is probably stated, because some kids really are that small at 12. If they haven't hit their big growth spurts yet, and have yet to hit puberty, then they are probably not ready for a seat belt designed for the average adult body.  But some kids will hit the adult seat belt requirements much much sooner. My car manual states that everyone below 4'9" should be in some kind of restraint or booster, actually.

[karen77]

1 hour ago, NotAnIncubator said:

Just 10 years back when my nephew was born they said to only have him rear-facing for the first year. I couldn't imagine cramming my nephew at 5 years old and 4ft tall into a rear facing carseat. Anything over a booster seat by 5 is just rediculous for the average family IMHO.

I had my kindergartner in a harnessed seat until the summer afterward (by then she was 6.5). She could do the clips and buckles herself, so it wasn't a big deal and I felt she was that much safer. I ALLOWED her to go to the booster option after that, since her brother needed her seat.

[19 cats and counting]

I have a FB friend who was in a multi car accident with fatalities.  The only 3 people (out of about a dozen involved) to walk away were her 3 kids (2-8).  The 8 yo was still in a carseat.

Everyone else had serious injuries or was killed.  

However, if current carseat laws existed when I was a kid, I would have been in a carseat until middle school.

[paulypepper]

On 3/15/2016 at 3:32 PM, Kittikatz said:

Car seats and seatbelts were pretty optional when I was growing up - almost nobody secured the car seats into the cars, they were just kind of free floating in the backseats. Kids pretty much had the run of the backseats and floorboards, and I remember crawling between front and backseat over the bench seat when the car was in motion. Also was very jealous of kids with station wagons as they had all the additional play space... Kids whose parents had pick up trucks often got to ride in the back (totally unsecured) and nothing was thought of it. My grandpa was very safety conscious and wouldn't let me ride in the back of his truck with his dogs, and five year old me felt quite bitter about it..

I also remember my mother and her friends believing that the lap belts in back seats were more harmful than not wearing a seat belt at all. They always told us that they would cut us in half, and we'd be better off taking our chances with the windscreen. It was rather terrifying when we had to ride with a parent who was all "buckle up back there, dears". Sigh... The 79s and 80s were so bizarre.

Ya shoulda been around in the early 60s I used to lie on the 'package shelf' ...the flat shelf between the back seat and the rear windshield...it was fun making funny faces at the cars behind us and kind of an amusement park ride when the parents had to slam on the brakes......ahh good times...good times