Counting On (everyone being civil in...) - part 2

[Antimony]

Just now, Maggie Mae said:

I know perfectly well why they have expiration dates and they are made out of plastic. The differences in climate, etc. 

But the mommy wars are what annoy the fuck out of me. People who live in a mild climate, know the research, understand it, and check their car seat for damage/brittle parts are not automatically doing it wrong because they chose to use a car seat for two different children. 

Worked in plastics for four years. By the time you can feel the brittleness with your own hands, it's too late. Usually the speed at which these things age and reach a 'danger point' is done by using an accelerated aging model. The danger point is often far above what you can perceive to be the difference just by hand. (Did this exact thing -- looking for expiration dates for plastic products. This was for a completely different application, deep see pipelines, but that's how its done.)

Brittleness also has a speed factor. Things that feel elastic and smooth flowing at low speeds can snap and break and crack at high speed impact. (Silly putty is the best polymer chemistry example of this but the same idea again applies to car seats.)

I have no children and no car seat experience. Just a lot of experience in plastics that would lead me to heed such expiration dates. A year or two past would be potentially reasonable wiggle room in my opinion, especially for those with a garage in a mild climate, but pushing it isn't the wisest choice, I believe. I can't really get a good gauge on what an AVERAGE car seat costs but for a risk benefit analysis of ~ $100, I'd replace it. Just my RBA.

[Maggie Mae]

8 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Worked in plastics for four years. By the time you can feel the brittleness with your own hands, it's too late. Usually the speed at which these things age and reach a 'danger point' is done by using an accelerated aging model. The danger point is often far above what you can perceive to be the difference just by hand. (Did this exact thing -- looking for expiration dates for plastic products. This was for a completely different application, deep see pipelines, but that's how its done.)

Brittleness also has a speed factor. Things that feel elastic and smooth flowing at low speeds can snap and break and crack at high speed impact. (Silly putty is the best polymer chemistry example of this but the same idea again applies to car seats.)

I have no children and no car seat experience. Just a lot of experience in plastics that would lead me to heed such expiration dates. A year or two past would be potentially reasonable wiggle room in my opinion, especially for those with a garage in a mild climate, but pushing it isn't the wisest choice, I believe. I can't really get a good gauge on what an AVERAGE car seat costs but for a risk benefit analysis of ~ $100, I'd replace it. Just my RBA.

What does "worked in plastics" even mean? Were you on an assembly line? HR? Why should I believe you, random person on the internet? 

I don't trust corporations any further than I can throw them. They do not have people's "best interests" in mind. They exist to make a profit. Why should I care about their arbitrary expiration dates? 

[Ramen Amen]

This is interesting. 

 

[anotherone]

20 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

But the mommy wars are what annoy the fuck out of me. People who live in a mild climate, know the research, understand it, and check their car seat for damage/brittle parts are not automatically doing it wrong because they chose to use a car seat for two different children. 

They annoy me too.  It's too much trouble for a lot of people to do the research, understand it, and make calculated risk decisions.  It's much easier to be sanctimonious and preachy to others who don't do exactly what they do.

 

 

[happy atheist]

4 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

What does "worked in plastics" even mean? Were you on an assembly line? HR? Why should I believe you, random person on the internet? 

I don't trust corporations any further than I can throw them. They do not have people's "best interests" in mind. They exist to make a profit. Why should I care about their arbitrary expiration dates? 

Presumably in this case "worked in plastics" means some sort of materials science. And she explained to you very clearly why you should care about expiration dates on car seats.

[anotherone]

17 minutes ago, Antimony said:

 A year or two past would be potentially reasonable wiggle room in my opinion, especially for those with a garage in a mild climate,

Someone is going to give you a hard time for that line and say you're putting your kids' lives in danger.  Just sayin'....

[SassyPants]

Cars are inherently dangerous. It seems avoiding putting children in one, ever, would be the absolute, 100% safest choice, and yet...

Debate!

[Maggie Mae]

7 minutes ago, happy atheist said:

Presumably in this case "worked in plastics" means some sort of materials science. And she explained to you very clearly why you should care about expiration dates on car seats.

I understand that. I don't care. I'm not a parent. I'm just sick of judging parents who think kids need to be bubblewrapped in a 5 point harness for the first 16 years of their life because of commercialism. 

I'm not even saying "don't follow the guidelines." I am not even saying I wouldn't. I'm saying that the mommy wars are fucking annoying and tedious. Yes, kids safety is important. But is it more important than teaching them to be independent and creative? 

And prior to this, I'm still wondering why @ClaraOswin thought she was being "harped on." 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

13 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

What does "worked in plastics" even mean? Were you on an assembly line? HR? Why should I believe you, random person on the internet? 

I don't trust corporations any further than I can throw them. They do not have people's "best interests" in mind. They exist to make a profit. Why should I care about their arbitrary expiration dates? 

Car seat production corporations aren't putting those expiration dates on there out of the goodness of their heart OR to make a profit. Things like that usually come down to either liability avoidance (ie warning someone of the limits of your product so that you aren't culpable if they get injured using it past those limits) or statutory requirements. So the dates are probably fairly accurate (though of course I'm not in materials science so it's very possible that there is some wiggle room, I wouldn't know).

[nausicaa]

13 minutes ago, Piano gal said:

This is interesting. 

 

Aside: I was at the IIHS headquarters a few weeks ago for something and saw those two cars post-accident set up in the lobby there. Weird worlds colliding here... (pun intended  )

[quiverofdoubt]

53 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

I don't have kids, so it's not personal to me, either. But I too find the assumption that everyone who makes any sort of mistake with a car seat such as using an expired one (the expiration dates are pushed by the manufacturers, it's not a law, and gee, I wonder why car seat manufacturers would want people to buy a new seat every few years.) or putting the kid into a coat first, or installing it themselves instead of bothering police & fire to not care about their children. People make mistakes in life. People are ignorant sometimes. It doesn't make them monsters.

Some people can handle following directions on how to install a seat and don't need it to be checked by the fire department (although I'd probably ask them to check my seatbelt usage if I didn't feel like a dirty old lady doing so, lol).

Or the people who freak out because someone is driving an older car and that's not "safe." Life isn't safe. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new car every two years and have children. 

I'm just wondering why so many people are willing to blindly follow car seat manufacturers guidelines without doing any independent research. Oh, right, because "safety of the children." 

Actually, many states have "proper use laws" meaning that if  you are using a carseat out side of the manual recommendations, than you are breaking the law. And the guidelines tell you when a seat expires. Most are around 6 years, my daughter's is 9 years post manufacture.

[Maggie Mae]

2 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Car seat production corporations aren't putting those expiration dates on there out of the goodness of their heart OR to make a profit. Things like that usually come down to either liability avoidance (ie warning someone of the limits of your product so that you aren't culpable if they get injured using it past those limits) or statutory requirements. So the dates are probably fairly accurate (though of course I'm not in materials science so it's very possible that there is some wiggle room, I wouldn't know).

Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they are much earlier than they need to be. Like with food. The sell by date is not the same as an expiration date. 

[Snarkylark]

Wow! That video is crazy! I'd never have guessed which way each car did in that crash. 

[OrchidBlossom]

Just now, Maggie Mae said:

Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they are much earlier than they need to be. Like with food. The sell by date is not the same as an expiration date. 

I actually would be somewhat surprised if they were very much earlier than they need to be. The sell by date isn't the same as the exp. date because the sell by date exists to warn buyers of when they should not purchase the goods from the store. Since a plastics expiration date exists to warn a user who has already purchased it of when they should stop using it, it's likely to be closer to a real danger point. Not to mention that child safety/automobile safety advocates AND big business advocates both have a strong lobbying presence, so it's unlikely that either side would be able to push the date too far in any extreme direction. Just speculation, though I have worked in/studied politics and policy.

[anotherone]

One thing to understand - reliability studies are based on statistics, not absolutes. Let's say you have a test group of some number of seats.  You will find some will fail immediately, some will fail in 2 yrs, some in 4, some in 20, etc.  Calculations are done to determine a cutoff date before which most will not fail (when I say "some" and "most," these numbers are determined by the particular test.) 

So even if your seat's expiration date is in, say, 6 years, they are not guaranteeing that none will fail before then.  Just that most will not. Will it be yours that fails?  Who knows? So you can follow those rules exactly, and still you have some risk.  (But in my opinion "you don't mess with your child's life"  may be a bit dramatic, because it means we are all doing that all the time, no matter whatever we do or whenever we are doing it.)

I am tired of the mommy wars and judgments too.

 

[quiverofdoubt]

The thing with seat expiration dates: for the most part your kid will outgrow the seat height limits LONG before the expiration date. Ex; our baby bucket seat. My daughter outgrew it in early 2013, but it doesn't expire until 2017.  Similar story with her convertible seat. Neither will be expired in before my second child can get some use out of them.  You spend 40-300 (and the 40$ seats are just fine and great btw) on a seat, use it daily for almost 6 years. That isn't a huge expense when it comes to children's gear.  compare that to say, a bouncer, which can go for 30-90 $ new, and you use for a few months.  

Seats years out of expiration date, say one you find used, may very well not pass current crash test standards or laws.  If you can't swing the 40 ish bucks for a scenera next, which is a highly recommended seat, there are a lot of programs that can help or even get you a seat.  BRU has a yearly deal where if you bring in an expired seat they will sell you a new one for 25% off, for example.  I just don't see an excuse for using an outdated, expired seat. Or knowingly use a seat incorrectly.

The physics of a seat, a crash, and the biology of of a child, is not a matter of "parental opinion".  They are scientific laws.  Rear facing a child under 4 (whose skeleton and musculature is still very fragile) makes them 5 times less likely to suffer internal decapitation in a wreck.  It's not the law, and if you choose to turn around sooner, fine.  But for me a small amount of inconvenience is small price to pay.  The benefits of turning a child around (like not being able to sneak junk food anymore because she can see me) were not enough for me to take the risks.   Similar story with a winter coat. My kid isn't a special snowflake that can magically defeat physics.

[Antimony]

34 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

What does "worked in plastics" even mean? Were you on an assembly line? HR? Why should I believe you, random person on the internet? 

I don't trust corporations any further than I can throw them. They do not have people's "best interests" in mind. They exist to make a profit. Why should I care about their arbitrary expiration dates? 

Chemist. Polymer chemist. Speciality projects on aging and degradation of polymers. Lab work, modeling. 

You don't have to. I'm giving you the quick and dirty version of how these things are done. But it's true. I've chimed in on the car seat discussion with this same information before. 

[Maggie Mae]

4 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Chemist. Polymer chemist. Speciality projects on aging and degradation of polymers. Lab work, modeling. 

You don't have to. I'm giving you the quick and dirty version of how these things are done. But it's true. I've chimed in on the car seat discussion with this same information before. 

Thank you. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, although I can see that I might come off that way. 

[Antimony]

32 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Someone is going to give you a hard time for that line and say you're putting your kids' lives in danger.  Just sayin'....

Probably, still would replace it though. No kids. 

Point is, aging studies play with A LOT of variables. UV exposure, humidity, temperature variance. There's going to be some sort of standard deviation on their calculation. And, if you like....forgot your expiration date was a concern for a few months and had put it through relatively little strain, it wouldn't be the worst and I don't think I'd dare file it under negligence. 

But I also don't believe exp dates are crock. Semi middle ground, I guess. 

[Grimalkin]

 

Bike helmets anyone?

[2manyKidzzz]

My kids are grown, so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak. Pre-internet info was available at that time, nothing on line! I think that being able to share info, check websites and such is great for those parents who want the most up to date safety info. Carsear safety is something you can control, there are just so many variables you cannot control, i.e., life in general. 

Checking with other parents, sharing that info online and in general networking could be very helpful. People can just always do the best they can, and then relax. 

[Maggie Mae]

16 minutes ago, Grimalkin said:

 

Bike helmets anyone?

Hahaha

[Snarkylark]

4 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

Hahaha

I'm having trouble with my phone right now! My last post was supposed to say that with all the concussion information we have now, I think it's only a matter of time before kids have to wear helmets for all sports. Can you imagine wearing helmets for basketball and soccer? Sounds silly but I have witnessed several head injuries with each sport. 

[Maggie Mae]

15 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

I'm having trouble with my phone right now! My last post was supposed to say that with all the concussion information we have now, I think it's only a matter of time before kids have to wear helmets for all sports. Can you imagine wearing helmets for basketball and soccer? Sounds silly but I have witnessed several head injuries with each sport. 

There is actually evidence out now that is pushing for fewer helmets, especially in football. It's counterintuitive, but I'll see if I can find the article I read. 

Here: http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06 

[Coconut Flan]

We just might be edging toward the time to let this one go perhaps.....