Counting On (everyone being civil in...) - part 2

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Once you buy the seat there are no other expenses. taking a coat off NOT adding things to the seat (like aftermarket strap pads or inserts), making the chest clip (on american carseats) is at the right place: all free. Leaving the carseat rear facing till your child hits the limits? also free.  

Car accidents are actually very common. Many childhood injuries and deaths are unavoidable. Stuff happens.  But there are obvious places we can make easy improvements, and driving in cars is one place to do that. I let my kid take a lot of risks, and tend to have a free range philosophy. But she is strapped in appropriately in the car, and wears a helmet to ride her bike.

Some random stats i could find, not sure if they are what you were looking for:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-children-at-risk-from-poor-adherence-to-car-seat-guidelines-study-warns/

http://www.carseatsite.com/statistics.htm

http://www.safekids.org/fact-sheet/motor-vehicle-safety-fact-sheet-2015-pdf

Those links are really helpful. Thank you.

[Dandruff]

26 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

Like most posters I remember things like riding unbuckled in the rear facing seat of my Mom's station wagon growing up. Different times. People weren't flying down the road texting and taking selfies behind the wheel in those days.

I also remember, at least through the 70's, that most cars were bigger and more metal/less plastic.  An accident could still be a disaster, and there were still idiot drivers, but - as you said - no one was texting or taking selfies.  Also no phones or cassette or CD slots to fiddle with.

[quiverofdoubt]

11 minutes ago, paulypepper said:

Ya shoulda been around in the early 60s I used to lie on the 'package shelf' ...the flat shelf between the back seat and the rear windshield...it was fun making funny faces at the cars behind us and kind of an amusement park ride when the parents had to slam on the brakes......ahh good times...good times

I actually did that once or twice in my friends saab.  in the 90's.  His mom had no idea i was back there under a blanket.  

I remember car trips from northern california to southern california, around 7 hours, where i never once wore a seatbelt in the back of an 88 ish suburban, while my dad drove over 80 mph.  That was in the 2000's.  My parents were born in the 40's/50's, and put very little importance on seat belts, or car safety in general. I remember holding the wheel for my dad when i was like, 6 years old.  And shouldn't have been in the front seat to begin with.

during one of those long seatbeltless road trips my dad went over  a curb, to avoid waiting in a long line to get back on the freeway, and i hit my head so hard on the ceiling it left a dent in the padding of the car. that almost made me put my belt on. 

Then there was the fun time my dad fell asleep on 1-5 in ca, with cruise control on way way above speed limits. And when i tried to wake his snoring butt up he yelled at me. I almost let him keep sleeping because i was afraid to get in trouble.  Then i realized i'd rather be in trouble then dead.

Those are just a handful of times things could have gone very very badly for me in the car growing up. I won't be repeating those examples for my kids.

[paulypepper]

2 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I actually did that once or twice in my friends saab.  in the 90's.  His mom had no idea i was back there under a blanket.  

I remember car trips from northern california to southern california, around 7 hours, where i never once wore a seatbelt in the back of an 88 ish suburban, while my dad drove over 80 mph.  That was in the 2000's.  My parents were born in the 40's/50's, and put very little importance on seat belts, or car safety in general. I remember holding the wheel for my dad when i was like, 6 years old.  And shouldn't have been in the front seat to begin with.

during one of those long seatbeltless road trips my dad went over  a curb, to avoid waiting in a long line to get back on the freeway, and i hit my head so hard on the ceiling it left a dent in the padding of the car. that almost made me put my belt on. 

Then there was the fun time my dad fell asleep on 1-5 in ca, with cruise control on way way above speed limits. And when i tried to wake his snoring butt up he yelled at me. I almost let him keep sleeping because i was afraid to get in trouble.  Then i realized i'd rather be in trouble then dead.

Those are just a handful of times things could have gone very very badly for me in the car growing up. I won't be repeating those examples for my kids.

Yep things were soooo different back then and thinking about it even though I can laugh and smile and reminisce about it all, I'm thankful to still be among the living. Back in the late 50's my mom was pregnant with me and was the passenger in a car that was in a wreck with another and everyone except for her and I were killed...no seatbelts and such back then.. so I'm definitely in favor of being safety minded at all times. I used to sit in my dads lap and steer while we were driving...come to think of it, what was wrong with parents back in the day?...

[quiverofdoubt]

18 minutes ago, paulypepper said:

Yep things were soooo different back then and thinking about it even though I can laugh and smile and reminisce about it all, I'm thankful to still be among the living. Back in the late 50's my mom was pregnant with me and was the passenger in a car that was in a wreck with another and everyone except for her and I were killed...no seatbelts and such back then.. so I'm definitely in favor of being safety minded at all times. I used to sit in my dads lap and steer while we were driving...come to think of it, what was wrong with parents back in the day?...

I sat in his lap too- till i was too big. Then he'd pretend to need both hands and eyes to rummage in the glove box, and make me steer. I was petrified.  I hated it.  

I was born in the late 80's though- so very much less back in the day, really. All of our cars did have seat belts. Even if we didn't use them much. My parents would tell me to "fake it" with my belt if i couldn't get it on once we were moving, or if they saw a cop. Just hold the belt near the buckle and pretend. They seriously thought my hand holding the seatbelt is as strong as the frame of the car, apparently.  BUT they were raised in the 50's, and they're "just fine" so i guess it was just fine for me too, in the 90's/2000's.

 

 

I'm going to point out here: i disagree with a vast majority of how i was parented, and for all kinds of reasons think my parents were abusive and negligent.  I in no way think their methods were "just fine". My daughter deserves better- in all aspects of her life.  Including car  safety.

[Chickenbutt]

It's all good, until it's not.

IMO, there is no excuse for a child not being in the appropriate sized carseat, installed in the appropriate manner.

[missegeno]

Also born in the late 80s here and we did the same "pretend it's buckled" thing. Safety was important to my mom who was born in the 50s, but these things still slipped by. Sure, I can look back and think of my freedoms and whatnot with a smile, but we learn and adjust to be better in the future than we were in the past. I can similarly think back fondly on the days when I regularly got blackout drunk or did hard drugs, taking risks I can't even fathom these days. But it's the same deal. This or that will work out fine sometimes. But when it doesnt work out, survivor's guilt can destroy anyone left behind who then runs through all of the coulda shoulda wouldas. It's terrible to wonder if one small change would have meant saving a loved one. I can think fondly of the good memories while acknowledging that I was incredibly lucky to survive long enough to learn better and avoid taking such risks going forward.

[librarychick]

Circa 1972 here. I rode in the back window many times as well.  My mom had a Dodge Dart that had two doors. The front seat let down all the way so you could climb in the back.  I rode many, many miles sitting on the back of the let down front seat facing the back window.  I also remember falling out of that car while my mom was pulling in the driveway at our house. My grandparents lived right next door and she had picked me up after work.  Apparently the door was not shut good and I was on my knees leaning back against the passenger door facing my mom. She hit a bump, the door came open and I tumbled out! Luckily, she was not going very fast.  I also remember her version of a seatbelt.  She would throw her arm across me if she hit the brakes.   When I started driving, I did the same thing to anyone riding with me out of pure habit.  Lol I still do it to my purse and very large mug of Diet Coke that I take with me everywhere!! Gotta protect the valuables!  But, as others have said, it was a different time and place then. Now, I immediately get in and put on my seatbelt and if my mom forgets to buckle, I gently remind her.

Re car seats: one of the worst fights I ever had with my mom was over my nephew and the car seat. He was 6 or so months old and we had taken him shopping with us in a town about 30 miles away.  On the ride home (on the interstate) he began to scream and my mother TOOK HIM OUT of the car seat!! I told her to put him back in and she proceeded to scream AT ME to shut up! She held him the rest of the way home.  We had a horrible fight the rest of the way home and into the next day. My dad chewed her out too.  We finally got over it, but I was furious at her for several days afterward.  Needless to say, she never did that crap again, at least not around me.

[anotherone]

2 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

What do they say? ask and you shall receive?

There are many many more.

When you post things like this, it makes me wonder why does anyone even drive their kid anywhere in the first place. Look how horrible and dangerous car driving is!  #1 killer of kids!!  But nobody thinks, if they weren't taken anywhere in the car they wouldn't be in the danger in the first place.  People will say, of course it's worth the hassle to take them out of jackets, etc.  But it's too much hassle to get a babysitter instead of taking them with you shopping, it's too much hassle to move to a closer school so the kids can walk, it's too much hassle to always have play dates at your own house, it's too much hassle to eat at home every night, we sometimes like to go out to eat.  Are you willing to do those things to protect your kids?

It's nice to be all protective about carseats but they are only good for more or less "minor" accidents.  Head on with a semi and forget it, it's all over for everyone.  Car accidents are the number one killer not because kids aren't in carseats, it's because driving is inherently dangerous. 

--Just to add - I don't really believe anyone will not take their kid anywhere in a car, and I drive my kids around all the time.    I always used carseats for my kids,   But again there is so much focus on just one thing, the carseat, instead of the actual danger which is every time you put that kid in a car.  People don't like to think about that part though. 

[catlady]

my parents had a circa 1972 Chevy Vega (bright orange), and I had a "booster" seat in the back:  a small, stool-type seat that just raised me up about 3 or 4 inches so I could see out the windows.  the seat was not strapped or attached in any way, and I did not use a seatbelt in it.  my sister and I were allowed to stand up in the back seat while on the interstate (55+ mph) until we were too tall to do so.  then we were allowed to take turns sitting on a pillow on the center console between the 2 front seats, while on mountain roads in New Hampshire and Vermont.  we also were allowed to ride in the back of a neighbor's open pickup truck.  Mr. CL and many of our friends have stories of sitting on their dads' laps and steering the car.

my mom freaks out about it all now, how lucky we all were that we were never in any accidents, because we easily could have died.  but back then, no one thought twice about the risks everyone took.  my sister's kids were required by her state to use car seats and harnesses until age 5, with a recommendation to age 7.  her kids are a year apart, and the older one has always been shorter and smaller, so they had booster/harness seats until they turned 7 and 8. 

[anotherone]

4 hours ago, lascuba said:

There are so many other things that likely have worse stats--like food safety and birth practices--that people roll their eyes over, but show them a 5 year old not rear-facing and witness the hysteria.

It should really be just a matter of statistics, but instead fears kind of cloud the numbers.  There was another one I was thinking about when my kids were kindergarten ages.  No one would every let their kids play outside even for a few minutes unsupervised, so the result was almost everyone was inside all the time, hooked to the TV or computer games, eating junk food. 

So I looked at abduction statistics (this was many years ago so who knows what they are now) . So about 1000 kids were abducted or attempted abductions in the US that year, however they defined it.  Something like 3/4 were an estranged parent (like the divorced dad).  Another ~15% were other relatives (grandparents) or someone they knew.  So there was about 100 or so left that were approached by a complete stranger, which was 2 kids per state per year.  So in the whole hundreds of square miles of my state, in the whole entire year, 2 kids were abducted by strangers. That's 2 out of some millions, which is like 0.0001%.  But on the other hand, the incidence of childhood obesity was 30%, which causes loss of quality of life, heart problems, lifelong medications, low self esteem, and if it continued into adulthood(which most do) , would result in shortened life span.

So is it a better deal to let them play outside more or not?  Your conclusion still may be no way would I let them play alone, but like Lascuba said, it's good to try to look critically at the statistics when making safety decisions.

[Maggie Mae]

People keep saying that the number one cause of death in children is Auto-Vehicle accidents, but I can't seem to find any actual evidence of that. According to the CDC, in 2014, the leading cause of injury death in the US  for under 1 years of age is unintentional suffication. #2 and #3 is homicide. For the aged 1-4 crowd, it's unintentional drowning, then MV Traffic. It doesn't state anything about car-seat usage. 

I'm not saying don't use a car seat. Just think about the actual reasons and evidence and where the study comes from. 

[quiverofdoubt]

20 minutes ago, anotherone said:

It should really be just a matter of statistics, but instead fears kind of cloud the numbers.  There was another one I was thinking about when my kids were kindergarten ages.  No one would every let their kids play outside even for a few minutes unsupervised, so the result was almost everyone was inside all the time, hooked to the TV or computer games, eating junk food. 

So I looked at abduction statistics (this was many years ago so who knows what they are now) . So about 1000 kids were abducted or attempted abductions in the US that year, however they defined it.  Something like 3/4 were an estranged parent (like the divorced dad).  Another ~15% were other relatives (grandparents) or someone they knew.  So there was about 100 or so left that were approached by a complete stranger, which was 2 kids per state per year.  So in the whole hundreds of square miles of my state, in the whole entire year, 2 kids were abducted by strangers. That's 2 out of some millions, which is like 0.0001%.  But on the other hand, the incidence of childhood obesity was 30%, which causes loss of quality of life, heart problems, lifelong medications, low self esteem, and if it continued into adulthood(which most do) , would result in shortened life span.

So is it a better deal to let them play outside more or not?  Your conclusion still may be no way would I let them play alone, but like Lascuba said, it's good to try to look critically at the statistics when making safety decisions.

The odds of getting abducted are very very low.  My kid has played outside, with minimal supervision from a super young age. I let her roam at parks and in relatively safe place (eg not too close to a big street).  Despite the fact that my neighbor spotted a mountain lion a block from my house last week, and a week before that a huge coyote went strolling through the woods a few yards from my house.  He was really pretty (i'm assuming he, i didn't ask, but size indicated male).  

I really don't feel like using the correct car seat, in the correct way, for my kid is bubble wrapping her. Physics apply to all children in car wrecks.  Statistics have nothing to do with it- speed, direction of travel, which way the child is facing, whether or not the seat was installed correctly, and if the child is installed correctly, as well as how the bone structure and organs can handle a direct force, stays the same no matter what the stats say.  Really, i didn't find rear facing her till close to 4 a burden in any way, and she never once complained about being cramped. In fact, even forward facing she still wants to sit cross legged. Keeping a kid locked up in a house all day has many many downsides.  Reading the car seat manual, and being up to date on current evidence, laws etc, has no down side whatsoever.  Really, one of the easier challenges of parenthood really.  

 

[ClaraOswin]

2 hours ago, anotherone said:

When you post things like this, it makes me wonder why does anyone even drive their kid anywhere in the first place. Look how horrible and dangerous car driving is!  #1 killer of kids!!  But nobody thinks, if they weren't taken anywhere in the car they wouldn't be in the danger in the first place.  People will say, of course it's worth the hassle to take them out of jackets, etc.  But it's too much hassle to get a babysitter instead of taking them with you shopping, it's too much hassle to move to a closer school so the kids can walk, it's too much hassle to always have play dates at your own house, it's too much hassle to eat at home every night, we sometimes like to go out to eat.  Are you willing to do those things to protect your kids?

It's nice to be all protective about carseats but they are only good for more or less "minor" accidents.  Head on with a semi and forget it, it's all over for everyone.  Car accidents are the number one killer not because kids aren't in carseats, it's because driving is inherently dangerous. 

--Just to add - I don't really believe anyone will not take their kid anywhere in a car, and I drive my kids around all the time.    I always used carseats for my kids,   But again there is so much focus on just one thing, the carseat, instead of the actual danger which is every time you put that kid in a car.  People don't like to think about that part though. 

So many things are out of our control when it comes to being on the road. There's really nothing useful about thinking those "what ifs." It's only useful to worry about things we CAN control....like putting our kids in the correct car seats. Or not being a distracted driver. (Don't even get me started on that!) These are the things I think about because they are in MY control. I can only control my actions.

2 hours ago, anotherone said:

It should really be just a matter of statistics, but instead fears kind of cloud the numbers.  There was another one I was thinking about when my kids were kindergarten ages.  No one would every let their kids play outside even for a few minutes unsupervised, so the result was almost everyone was inside all the time, hooked to the TV or computer games, eating junk food. 

So I looked at abduction statistics (this was many years ago so who knows what they are now) . So about 1000 kids were abducted or attempted abductions in the US that year, however they defined it.  Something like 3/4 were an estranged parent (like the divorced dad).  Another ~15% were other relatives (grandparents) or someone they knew.  So there was about 100 or so left that were approached by a complete stranger, which was 2 kids per state per year.  So in the whole hundreds of square miles of my state, in the whole entire year, 2 kids were abducted by strangers. That's 2 out of some millions, which is like 0.0001%.  But on the other hand, the incidence of childhood obesity was 30%, which causes loss of quality of life, heart problems, lifelong medications, low self esteem, and if it continued into adulthood(which most do) , would result in shortened life span.

So is it a better deal to let them play outside more or not?  Your conclusion still may be no way would I let them play alone, but like Lascuba said, it's good to try to look critically at the statistics when making safety decisions.

Only a small percentage of people die in tornadoes every year. But you can bet your ass that I still go into the basement when we are under a tornado warning.

As far as playing outside unattended....there is a registered sex offender that lives not far from our park. So yeah...my child certainly won't be playing alone over there. Some things I won't take chances with. I don't really care if others judge me for that though. Because honestly, I'm likely judging them for the opposite reasons anyway. Ha!

[ClaraOswin]

More random thoughts while reading this thread......

A good, safe car seat does NOT have to be expensive. There are a lot of really affordable ones out there.

If someone can't handle the 30 second "hassle" of a coat or use of a blanket (or we use a 'car seat poncho') then they probably would be better off without a child because there are a lot of way worse "hassles" when it comes to parenting.

Rear facing vs. forward facing...google it in relation to "internal decapitation." Since rear facing is literally no harder than forward facing...why risk it?

You can never make your child 100% safe in a car. Same goes for adults. But you can certainly do all that is available based on current research.

[anotherone]

If people really want to do something that is in the average person's control, lobby for 5 point harness seatbelts. Like in racecars. Once the kids are in boosters and older then it's just lapbelts and shoulder belts.   Studies have shown 5 point harnesses for grownups would be a huge lifesaver in accidents. 

[ADoyle90815]

3 hours ago, librarychick said:

Circa 1972 here. I rode in the back window many times as well.  My mom had a Dodge Dart that had two doors. The front seat let down all the way so you could climb in the back.  I rode many, many miles sitting on the back of the let down front seat facing the back window.  I also remember falling out of that car while my mom was pulling in the driveway at our house. My grandparents lived right next door and she had picked me up after work.  Apparently the door was not shut good and I was on my knees leaning back against the passenger door facing my mom. She hit a bump, the door came open and I tumbled out! Luckily, she was not going very fast.  I also remember her version of a seatbelt.  She would throw her arm across me if she hit the brakes.   When I started driving, I did the same thing to anyone riding with me out of pure habit.  Lol I still do it to my purse and very large mug of Diet Coke that I take with me everywhere!! Gotta protect the valuables!  But, as others have said, it was a different time and place then. Now, I immediately get in and put on my seatbelt and if my mom forgets to buckle, I gently remind her.

Re car seats: one of the worst fights I ever had with my mom was over my nephew and the car seat. He was 6 or so months old and we had taken him shopping with us in a town about 30 miles away.  On the ride home (on the interstate) he began to scream and my mother TOOK HIM OUT of the car seat!! I told her to put him back in and she proceeded to scream AT ME to shut up! She held him the rest of the way home.  We had a horrible fight the rest of the way home and into the next day. My dad chewed her out too.  We finally got over it, but I was furious at her for several days afterward.  Needless to say, she never did that crap again, at least not around me.

1975 here, and I remember riding in the back of the station wagon with my brother when we would go look at Christmas lights with my family, and at other times with Girl Scouts, 4 of us in the back seat, 2 per lap belt since that's the closest thing to a seat belt we had in the back. The only car seats we had were ones with metal legs and the only thing keeping you in was something like a lap bar for a roller coaster, and when we left the hospital, it was being held in Mom's arms while our dad drove.

[Queen Of Hearts]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:33 PM, Irish13 said:

Because babies should breastfeed until age 1yr at the very least. For some of us it's as important as proper car seat safety. 

I rarely get into these types of discussions on FJ, but in this case I'm personally offended.  My daughter was adopted at birth and was formula fed and so far is just fine.  In fact, she is healthier than most of the babies I know that are of the same age... breast fed and bottle fed.   While breast feeding does have specific benefits for some, there is zero proof that formula feeding is harmful.  To equate not breast feeding to not using proper car seat safety is not only ignorant, it is offensive.  

Rant over.

In other news, does anyone know where the GMA segment was filmed?

[ClaraOswin]

8 minutes ago, anotherone said:

If people really want to do something that is in the average person's control, lobby for 5 point harness seatbelts. Like in racecars. Once the kids are in boosters and older then it's just lapbelts and shoulder belts.   Studies have shown 5 point harnesses for grownups would be a huge lifesaver in accidents. 

Lazy assholes have a hard enough time putting ONE buckle in. There's no way they'd be able to handle a 5 point harness. 

4 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I rarely get into these types of discussions on FJ, but in this case I'm personally offended.  My daughter was adopted at birth and was formula fed and so far is just fine.  In fact, she is healthier than most of the babies I know that are of the same age... breast fed and bottle fed.   While breast feeding does have specific benefits for some, there is zero proof that formula feeding is harmful.  To equate not breast feeding to not using proper car seat safety is not only ignorant, it is offensive.  

Rant over.

In other news, does anyone know where the GMA segment was filmed?

I think it was filmed in that large house with the pool where midwife Vanessa used to live. Jill's baby shower was filmed there. I think the Duggars own the house.

[QuiverDance]

7 hours ago, lascuba said:

Another things is that, yes, proper car seat use is vital, but...1)what are the odd of you getting in an accident to begin with; 2)what are the odds that an accident will be major enough that all those seemingly nit-picky details will make a difference? There are so many other things that likely have worse stats--like food safety and birth practices--that people roll their eyes over, but show them a 5 year old not rear-facing and witness the hysteria. So I can totally see why people don't even want to bother with all the car seat rules.

So yes, they really need to do something to make things simpler...who the hell wants to deal with getting their kid in and out of a coat in their car in the freezing cold because of "safety?"

It is a TOTAL PITA,, especially when you are dealing with two (or more) in carseats.  I was lucky in that I generally got my kids into the car in a large garage and out of the car in a covered area at their dropoff at school.  Not to mention I live in a southern climate.  I can see where it would be extremely difficult to deal with in the elements in a cold climate, but I'd still do it because the ONE TIME that accident might occur in one million is the small eventuality the car seat is for in the first place.  You just don't mess around with your kid's life.  

[anotherone]

5 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

 because the ONE TIME that accident might occur in one million is the small eventuality the car seat is for in the first place.  You just don't mess around with your kid's life.  

Do you not realize it would be ZERO if you didn't drive.  Sorry, but this post sounded a bit judgemental.

[ClaraOswin]

So....a parent's only options are to NEVER drive or to be negligent with car seat safety? I'm glad I don't live in that reality.

And in case there is any question...YES, I will judge parents for knowingly using car seats incorrectly.

With most parenting choices there is a huge grey area. There are many different techniques  and whatnot. What works for one family doesn't work for the other. I try not to judge when it comes to these types of things. Like a topic discussed earlier (or maybe on a different thread) about Baby Led Weaning. Is that what we chose to do? Nope. But I wouldn't tell someone else it's "wrong" or not to do it. That's just their choice. It's not life or death.

But car seat safety? How is that even a debate?

[QuiverDance]

Sorry, but I don't see how my post was judgmental.  Car seats and seat belts are used to mitigate worst case scenarios: traumatic injuries resulting from unforeseen and unpreventable accidents.  9999 times out of 10,000 driving days will not involve those worst case scenarios.  The car seat, used properly, is there to provide additional safety in the offchance that unforeseen thing occurs.  How on earth is my statement judgmental?  And there is no such thing as complete safety, even in the absence of driving, so stating that the incidence of risk would be zero in the absence of driving is a fallacy.  

[MayMay1123]

i'm having a really really hard time keeping my fingers away from the keyboard...but when you have to attend the funeral of a baby that flew through the fucking windshield of a car and then still want to be even slightly cavalier about car seats, come see me, because that is one event that i never want to see repeated to anyone. i cannot believe that people are arguing over what is the safest thing for a child, what the fuck people?

[ClaraOswin]

12 minutes ago, MayMay1123 said:

i'm having a really really hard time keeping my fingers away from the keyboard...but when you have to attend the funeral of a baby that flew through the fucking windshield of a car and then still want to be even slightly cavalier about car seats, come see me, because that is one event that i never want to see repeated to anyone. i cannot believe that people are arguing over what is the safest thing for a child, what the fuck people?

Exactly. I'm trying to figure out if people truly believe these things or if they are just bored and trying to get people to argue.

I think I've said all I can say about it at this point. Proper car seat usage = good. Improper usage = bad.

Duggars = idiots who don't know how to use car seats.