Counting On (everyone being civil in...) - part 2

[Bad Wolf]

Several years ago there was an accident with a mini van which was seriously overcrowded. The baby was in a car seat on the floor and went through the windshield. Amazingly she had no major injuries. Unfortunately, the same could not be said for some od the others who were not buckled in.

[MayMay1123]

thank you @ClaraOswin... i've said what i wanted to and now i need to go back to attending to my colcannon and corned beef

[iweartanktops]

50 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

So....a parent's only options are to NEVER drive or to be negligent with car seat safety? I'm glad I don't live in that reality.

And in case there is any question...YES, I will judge parents for knowingly using car seats incorrectly.

With most parenting choices there is a huge grey area. There are many different techniques  and whatnot. What works for one family doesn't work for the other. I try not to judge when it comes to these types of things. Like a topic discussed earlier (or maybe on a different thread) about Baby Led Weaning. Is that what we chose to do? Nope. But I wouldn't tell someone else it's "wrong" or not to do it. That's just their choice. It's not life or death.

But car seat safety? How is that even a debate?

I agree with all of your posts on this subject. In fact, this is almost certainly going to be unpopular, but if I see someone either post a photo or in person, using a car seat incorrectly, I will always kindly and privately point it out. If something were to happen, and I didn't speak up, I would never forgive myself. 

[2manyKidzzz]

Carseats properly used

General supervision

Babyproofing

Cookies and bribery when needed

[Chickenbutt]

In response to the accident statistics and the "off chance" that you "might" have an accident, like I said before....

It's all good, until it's not.

As @ClaraOswinsaid, How is this even a debate?

 

 

[ClaraOswin]

2 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

I agree with all of your posts on this subject. In fact, this is almost certainly going to be unpopular, but if I see someone either post a photo or in person, using a car seat incorrectly, I will always kindly and privately point it out. If something were to happen, and I didn't speak up, I would never forgive myself. 

I have said to things to people after seeing photos they posted on Facebook. Most people are nice about it. One friend got a little pissy with me. Oh well. Like you said, if something happened I would feel awful for not at least trying to help.

2 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Carseats properly used

General supervision

Babyproofing

Cookies and bribery when needed

Sounds like our house. I just wish my son liked cookies/junk to use as bribery!

[iweartanktops]

Yeah, @ClaraOswin, my sister in law wasn't thrilled when I helped her, but I'm not going to watch my niece ride around buckled incorrectly! It's not about being right, it's about safety. 

[ClaraOswin]

When I share articles/blogs about car seat safety I always tell people that if they ever see a photo of my son buckled in wrong...they should tell me. I will NOT be offended at all.

[anotherone]

3 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Sorry, but I don't see how my post was judgmental.  Car seats and seat belts are used to mitigate worst case scenarios: traumatic injuries resulting from unforeseen and unpreventable accidents.  9999 times out of 10,000 driving days will not involve those worst case scenarios.  The car seat, used properly, is there to provide additional safety in the offchance that unforeseen thing occurs.  How on earth is my statement judgmental?  And there is no such thing as complete safety, even in the absence of driving, so stating that the incidence of risk would be zero in the absence of driving is a fallacy.  

 

No one is arguing against car seats or safety rules by any means. I personally follow them as much as I know about the latest rules.   But there is just this arrogance to the carseat comments that sometimes gets to me. the phrase "you just don't mess with a kid's life" is pretty judgmental.   Are you also messing with your kids' lives because you haven't bought the newest most expensive model car with all the new safety features, and you're car is already one year old and outdated?  There seems to be a one-upmanship in the discussions.

 

[ClaraOswin]

How is having a safe car seat one-upping anyone?  I am not seeing the connection at all. Wanting your child to be safe isn't trying to one-up anyone else.

[iweartanktops]

I didn't see anyone saying that people need the most expensive seats. 

[NotAnIncubator]

14 hours ago, karen77 said:

I had my kindergartner in a harnessed seat until the summer afterward (by then she was 6.5). She could do the clips and buckles herself, so it wasn't a big deal and I felt she was that much safer. I ALLOWED her to go to the booster option after that, since her brother needed her seat.

I ran two thoughts together. I should have said 'it would be ridiculous to require or have a law in place that requires children to stay in rear-facing till they're 5.' Or to freak out over a 2 year old in a front-facing carseat. In my state, a child can legally ride sans booster at 79 lbs which I find perfectly reasonable. About the age of 4-6. We did keep my nephew in a small booster after 5 as well. 

Something wild I found out earlier is car seats actually expire. I think theyre only good for only 4-5 years. Can you imagine how many expired or unworthy carseats have passed the Dugger hands?? The one for Josie would technically be expired in my area. I wonder if Jill got that too along with her chewed-up crib?

[foreign fundie]

Reading all this makes me glad my family survived so far. 

I lived in several countries without many laws for car safety. We did not own a car, so had to use worn out taxies. The driving was horrendous and no belts in the back. We just prayed and sat tight, squeezed in between my kids and one on my lap. If the taxi driver had a near collision, and I would flinch, the driver would laugh at the silly foreigner. If I sat in front, the driver would warn me not to use the belts, as they would make my clothes dirty. Which they did since nobody used them in ten years. Still, taxies were safer then the buses, so we used them all the time.

My American friends who did the same, one day went on holiday to the States. Half their luggage consisted of two (in my eyes) gigantic car seats for their kids, whom I though were surely old enough to travel without them. She told me that by law they would not be allowed to drive home from the airport without them. We had a good laugh, because it seemed so absurd they would drive to the airport in a rotten taxi without belts and with a smoking, texting and tv watching driver, but had to have these huge car seats to get home from the airport.

But yes, the choice of just living our lives there, including the risks, was not always easy. I sometimes thought it would be safer not to go anywhere. But my kids would get depressed if they were locked up in the house. 

When we moved and got a car with belts, our kids quickly adjusted. So much so that when a friend took my youngest to school, she refused to sit in a seat without a belt and cried until she could switch seats with my friend's kid.

When we are in control or when in our own countries, we can and do keep safety regulations. But we find living abroad also means taking certain risks, to prevent isolating yourself from normal society. Maybe that is one of the reasons the Dillards find living in CA so dangerous. Western countries have come a long way in baby proofing themselves. But in most countries children face far more risks from traffic, pollution, disease, and so on. Living abroad with a family, even as wealthy expats in big cities, you embrace some of those risks in order to live.

And that brings me back to the breastfeeding discussion. Breastfeeding has been pushed to a point that I sense that people want to push back. But in many places the choice between formula and breastmilk is a matter of life and death. With unsafe water, no knowledge of germs and unreliable milk powder, I can see why the WHO does push breast feeding so much. In the USA car seats may be the bigger concern, but in many places both are important to combat infant mortality.

[HarleyQuinn]

11 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

When I share articles/blogs about car seat safety I always tell people that if they ever see a photo of my son buckled in wrong...they should tell me. I will NOT be offended at all.

My doctor was kind enough to tell me and my husband that our son wasn't strapped in the correct way when we brought him to his 2 week check up. I was thankful for that. We were first time parents, we didn't know any better. Not offense at all.

The only time I've ever gotten offended by "mom advice" is when someone from the Breastapo tries to shame me for formula feeding. 

[QuiverDance]

13 hours ago, anotherone said:

 

No one is arguing against car seats or safety rules by any means. I personally follow them as much as I know about the latest rules.   But there is just this arrogance to the carseat comments that sometimes gets to me. the phrase "you just don't mess with a kid's life" is pretty judgmental.   Are you also messing with your kids' lives because you haven't bought the newest most expensive model car with all the new safety features, and you're car is already one year old and outdated?  There seems to be a one-upmanship in the discussions.

 

I stand by my original statement.  If it pissed you off, so be it.  

 

[lascuba]

Man, if I weren't so lazy I'd go through old posts for the ones who vehemently defended Jill and Jessa's birth choices and excoriated those of us who went hard on them and lay midwifery in general to see how many overlap with some of you here. That Venn diagram must be fascinating. People shouldn't have children if they don't follow carseat rules to a T? Wow.

[ClaraOswin]

You certainly wouldn't find me on that list. Their birth choices were ridiculous.

REAL midwives are great (though that wasn't the route I chose.) But the "midwives" they use are not real, as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously though...how can anyone think using a car seat improperly is okay? I'm seriously asking. Why are you harping on those of us who follow car seat rules? Why are we the bad guys exactly?

[Maggie Mae]

9 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

You certainly wouldn't find me on that list. Their birth choices were ridiculous.

REAL midwives are great (though that wasn't the route I chose.) But the "midwives" they use are not real, as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously though...how can anyone think using a car seat improperly is okay? I'm seriously asking. Why are you harping on those of us who follow car seat rules? Why are we the bad guys exactly?

Who is "harping on you" and can you point to where anyone said "don't follow car seat rules?" 

[ClaraOswin]

Can you point to where I said "people are saying don't follow car seat rules?"  No. I said people are harping on those of us who do. "Harping on" is just my perspective of the posts. You don't have to agree with that observation.

I am just confused as to how this is even a debate.

Honestly...it shouldn't be. So I am choosing to completely bow out of this thread. It's making me way too angry right now. You all are welcome to follow car seat rules...or don't. I don't really give a shit....though yes, I will continue to judge people for ignoring the laws or the guidelines in the car seat manuals. Because there is literally NO REASON to ignore those things.

Now I just need to figure out how to get this thread to no longer show up in my activity stream.

[Maggie Mae]

5 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

Can you point to where I said "people are saying don't follow car seat rules?"  No. I said people are harping on those of us who do. "Harping on" is just my perspective of the posts. You don't have to agree with that observation.

I am just confused as to how this is even a debate.

Honestly...it shouldn't be. So I am choosing to completely bow out of this thread. It's making me way too angry right now. You all are welcome to follow car seat rules...or don't. I don't really give a shit....though yes, I will continue to judge people for ignoring the laws or the guidelines in the car seat manuals. Because there is literally NO REASON to ignore those things.

Now I just need to figure out how to get this thread to no longer show up in my activity stream.

But where is ANYONE "harping on" people who use car seats? 

I'm really confused as to why you are upset. It makes no sense to me. 

Has anyone actually said "it's okay to use them improperly?" 

[lascuba]

29 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

You certainly wouldn't find me on that list. Their birth choices were ridiculous.

REAL midwives are great (though that wasn't the route I chose.) But the "midwives" they use are not real, as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously though...how can anyone think using a car seat improperly is okay? I'm seriously asking. Why are you harping on those of us who follow car seat rules? Why are we the bad guys exactly?

No one is harping on you. Be serious. I don't have kids so this isn't something personal to me, I just find the *harping* that people do over others not reading and following up on every single update on car seat usage to be ridiculous. Someone not using a car seat at all? Bad. Someone  who makes the god damn reasonable assumption that putting their baby in a carseat with their coat on is just fine; or that front facing a toddler because it's easier to strap them in/they throw tantrums when rear-facing is perfectly safe; isn't some fucking monster that requires a bunch of arrogant comments about the stupidity of said parent. They are clearly practicing what they think is safe, and it's shitty to tell they they shouldn't have children.

[Maggie Mae]

2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

No one is harping on you. Be serious. I don't have kids so this isn't something personal to me, I just find the *harping* that people do over others not reading and following up on every single update on car seat usage to be ridiculous. Someone not using a car seat at all? Bad. Someone  who makes the god damn reasonable assumption that putting their baby in a carseat with their coat on is just fine; or that front facing a toddler because it's easier to strap them in/they throw tantrums when rear-facing is perfectly safe; isn't some fucking monster that requires a bunch of arrogant comments about the stupidity of said parent. They are clearly practicing what they think is safe, and it's shitty to tell they they shouldn't have children.

I don't have kids, so it's not personal to me, either. But I too find the assumption that everyone who makes any sort of mistake with a car seat such as using an expired one (the expiration dates are pushed by the manufacturers, it's not a law, and gee, I wonder why car seat manufacturers would want people to buy a new seat every few years.) or putting the kid into a coat first, or installing it themselves instead of bothering police & fire to not care about their children. People make mistakes in life. People are ignorant sometimes. It doesn't make them monsters.

Some people can handle following directions on how to install a seat and don't need it to be checked by the fire department (although I'd probably ask them to check my seatbelt usage if I didn't feel like a dirty old lady doing so, lol).

Or the people who freak out because someone is driving an older car and that's not "safe." Life isn't safe. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new car every two years and have children. 

I'm just wondering why so many people are willing to blindly follow car seat manufacturers guidelines without doing any independent research. Oh, right, because "safety of the children." 

[Antimony]

I'm gonna say one thing on expiration dates.

Most car seats I've seen have a lot of plastic components. Plastic ages and becomes more and more brittle over time. Have you ever found a rubberband in your desk from like, forever ago, and it snaps when you stretch it? That exact same thing happens to your car seat. Sunlight tends to speed up this process as well. It has also occurred to me that this happens a lot in lawn furniture/playground toys. A lot of cheap plastic lawn chairs will just snap if left over in the sun for a few years. A 5-10 year expiration date is perfectly reasonable.

If the seat becomes too brittle, it could snap under stress or strain or break some component.

Most expiration dates are too early. You can certainly eat expired canned food (my food bank even had guidelines for how far beyond expiration for each type of canned food). These might be a little early but the amount of use/sunlight/temperature fluctuation is so variable. (I also reckon that they're trying to avoid lawsuits as well by including these guidelines.)

[Maggie Mae]

1 minute ago, Antimony said:

I'm gonna say one thing on expiration dates.

Most car seats I've seen have a lot of plastic components. Plastic ages and becomes more and more brittle over time. Have you ever found a rubberband in your desk from like, forever ago, and it snaps when you stretch it? That exact same thing happens to your car seat. Sunlight tends to speed up this process as well. It has also occurred to me that this happens a lot in lawn furniture/playground toys. A lot of cheap plastic lawn chairs will just snap if left over in the sun for a few years. A 5-10 year expiration date is perfectly reasonable.

If the seat becomes too brittle, it could snap under stress or strain or break some component.

Most expiration dates are too early. You can certainly eat expired canned food (my food bank even had guidelines for how far beyond expiration for each type of canned food). These might be a little early but the amount of use/sunlight/temperature fluctuation is so variable. (I also reckon that they're trying to avoid lawsuits as well by including these guidelines.)

I know perfectly well why they have expiration dates and they are made out of plastic. The differences in climate, etc. 

But the mommy wars are what annoy the fuck out of me. People who live in a mild climate, know the research, understand it, and check their car seat for damage/brittle parts are not automatically doing it wrong because they chose to use a car seat for two different children. 

[Snarkylark]

I can somewhat understand the "no snow suits or puffy coats" on kids in the car thing. They don't need to be sweating in their seat anyway. And the pictures of the buckle with and then without the coat are a little deceiving. The coat can be compressed, yes, but it doesn't go away all together.  I think that a light winter coat (there are some that are very thin but still warm) is appropriate. I can't say that if my kids were little when the "no coats on LO's in car seats" recommendation came out that I would have followed it. I don't know. When you have multiple kids in car seats of different ages that aren't able to buckle independently and mom and dad can't fit inside the vehicle to take coats off, well, it just isn't realistic. Especially in frigid northern American winters. And then, what if you are in a terrible accident and you child is not ejected but it's -15F with -45 degree wind chills, then your child is more exposed to the elements and broken glass and everything else that goes along with an accident. There are no perfect answers. Do what is safest and best for your child using the best information available. We can sit and talk hypotheticals all day. If your kid walks to school he could be hit by a car too. You take a risk every time you leave the house.