Bates Family Part 9

[Alye]

No where seems to yet.

[Kittikatz]

I'm not even going to speculate what is going on with Erin getting pregnant again, beyond that I'm hoping for a good outcome for mother and baby. Accidental/not, stupid/not, uninformed/not, full on quiverfull/not, is just IMO, fan fiction. We know what the parents believe or believed when they were being somewhat honest pre TV (roughly at least), but as far as the adult children go, we don't see much of what these people really think or feel, or what drives them. All we get is cheerfulness and 'fun' family activites shown through the lens of a carefully produced and scripted reality show and some fairly bland (and occasionally stupid - here's looking at you, Lawson) social media posts.

It's easy to assume that the adult children are believing in the same theology as their parents. And they may well, but they may not believe it either, or only believe certain elements, or have never really considered any of it, and over time and out of the total control of their parents, their beliefs may well have a significant evolution. I just think it's a mistake to think that unless one of these people pulls a full on, dramatic Suzanne Keller or Alicia Pennington style runner, they are still in the cult. Many people simply and organically evolve out of one belief system and into another. It's not as fun for us to watch, but it is usually easier on family relationships and less traumatic for the person whose beliefs are shifting to process than an all at once ah ha moment. 

Until the adult children each come out and make a public announcement saying "we believe or don't believe in x" (and they have every reason not to do this as it would possibly upset the gravy train) those of us watching on TV cannot really know their beliefs. I think that Erin saying that she and Chad are not affiliated with ATI or Gothard is an interesting start. It may be a partial truth, but it seems to indicate a shift from their parents beliefs, and that's something. Just as Alyssa's clothing choices and her statement that she didn't like being on the TV show are a small step toward a different opinion. It's hard to find yourself in a cult. It's even more difficult to stand up and own a different way of living. Sometimes it just takes time.

[Front Hugging Fiend]

19 hours ago, twinmama said:

As someone who pumped and bottle fed (for a very short time), it would be way faster and easier to just nurse the kid. If you pump, you have to sit there and be hooked up for like 20+ minutes. If you nurse, you can walk around and do stuff while nursing. I gave up pumping because I could not care for two infants by myself and be attached to a pump at the same time (and because I made like an ounce at a time, and it just wasn't worth it!).

Fair enough. I was 15 when my mother had my little brother, and I remember her saying that nursing just wasn't easy for her with all of her other tasks. But every mother is different!!!

[actuallyjessica]

4 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

I'm not even going to speculate what is going on with Erin getting pregnant again, beyond that I'm hoping for a good outcome for mother and baby. Accidental/not, stupid/not, uninformed/not, full on quiverfull/not, is just IMO, fan fiction. We know what the parents believe or believed when they were being somewhat honest pre TV (roughly at least), but as far as the adult children go, we don't see much of what these people really think or feel, or what drives them. All we get is cheerfulness and 'fun' family activites shown through the lens of a carefully produced and scripted reality show and some fairly bland (and occasionally stupid - here's looking at you, Lawson) social media posts.

It's easy to assume that the adult children are believing in the same theology as their parents. And they may well, but they may not believe it either, or only believe certain elements, or have never really considered any of it, and over time and out of the total control of their parents, their beliefs may well have a significant evolution. I just think it's a mistake to think that unless one of these people pulls a full on, dramatic Suzanne Keller or Alicia Pennington style runner, they are still in the cult. Many people simply and organically evolve out of one belief system and into another. It's not as fun for us to watch, but it is usually easier on family relationships and less traumatic for the person whose beliefs are shifting to process than an all at once ah ha moment. 

Until the adult children each come out and make a public announcement saying "we believe or don't believe in x" (and they have every reason not to do this as it would possibly upset the gravy train) those of us watching on TV cannot really know their beliefs. I think that Erin saying that she and Chad are not affiliated with ATI or Gothard is an interesting start. It may be a partial truth, but it seems to indicate a shift from their parents beliefs, and that's something. Just as Alyssa's clothing choices and her statement that she didn't like being on the TV show are a small step toward a different opinion. It's hard to find yourself in a cult. It's even more difficult to stand up and own a different way of living. Sometimes it just takes time.

I wish I could Thumbs Up this post multiple times.

There is no way to tell if someone's beliefs are changing unless they come out and say so... and with that said it makes me wonder what matters to the FJers, that the fundies tell everyone they're changing, or that they're just changing without an announcement? I didn't articulate that very well, but I hope you'll get the point.

[nastyhobbitses]

I don't know if I should view Erin's response as an UPtv CYA statement (I'm sure they see the writing on the wall and want to keep their perfectly coiffed meal tickets away from the impending Bill Gothsby scandal) or as a genuine "we don't do ATI anymore/we don't follow Gothard" statement. Even though it's not Erin writing about how she now follows the teachings of the Dalai Lama, going from having a birthday cake for the creepy old rapist who writes your (inaccurate, weird) school textbooks AT YOUR WEDDING to publicly saying you don't follow his teachings is pretty big. But I'm still inclined to believe that it's a CYA statement more than anything.

[formergothardite]

I think it would be bigger to say she didn't support him anymore if there hadn't have been a huge break between Gothard, IBLP and the BoD. 

While it could very well be that Erin and Chad have changed beliefs, I think that, like the Duggars, reality television will make the move away from these beliefs harder. IBLP's family conferences advertise the "Bates Family" and a link that takes you to a picture that includes Chad and Erin and it advertises the whole family as reality TV stars that are connected with IBLP. I don't see Gil and Kelly taking it well if any of their kids wanted to truly break off all association with IBLP.

All I can say, though, about Gil and Kelly, is that after this latest amended lawsuit, there can be no doubt they are bad, bad people. There is no way Kelly didn't know what was going on and how Gil was treating the women who came to him to let him know about horrific abuse. For those who don't keep up with the other threads, a woman who was raped at 11, sent to Gothard for counseling, molested by him, and forced to work 100+ in a training center, sent the board a long detailed letter. How did they respond? Last year they sent her $1, 500 and tried to manipulate her into meeting alone with Bill Gothard to "fix" this. Yeah, because a bit of money and spending alone time with her abuser is a great way to solve this problem. 

[HarleyQuinn]

And didn't Gil send his daughters with Gothard on trips? After he knew what he was capable of. That's so gross.

[MissBitters]

7 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

It's easy to assume that the adult children are believing in the same theology as their parents. And they may well, but they may not believe it either, or only believe certain elements, or have never really considered any of it, and over time and out of the total control of their parents, their beliefs may well have a significant evolution. I just think it's a mistake to think that unless one of these people pulls a full on, dramatic Suzanne Keller or Alicia Pennington style runner, they are still in the cult. Many people simply and organically evolve out of one belief system and into another. It's not as fun for us to watch, but it is usually easier on family relationships and less traumatic for the person whose beliefs are shifting to process than an all at once ah ha moment. 

Until the adult children each come out and make a public announcement saying "we believe or don't believe in x" (and they have every reason not to do this as it would possibly upset the gravy train) those of us watching on TV cannot really know their beliefs. I think that Erin saying that she and Chad are not affiliated with ATI or Gothard is an interesting start. It may be a partial truth, but it seems to indicate a shift from their parents beliefs, and that's something. Just as Alyssa's clothing choices and her statement that she didn't like being on the TV show are a small step toward a different opinion. It's hard to find yourself in a cult. It's even more difficult to stand up and own a different way of living. Sometimes it just takes time.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think a lot of us here have such high expectations of rebellion that we set up ourselves for disappointment. I have no expectations of Gil and Kelly  or Jim Bob and Michelle ever changing their viewpoints. They are too enmeshed in the system. I'm more interested in what happens with their children. I think a majority of them will go through a quiet evolution of their beliefs that will remain conservative but not as restrictive. Maybe one or two from each family will pull a Suze Keller. Of course there will also be a handful who continue the same path as their parents.

Zach, Alyssa, and Jessa have already publicly stated that they have questioned some of their parents' beliefs. Yes, Erin and Chad did have a birthday cake for Bill Gothard at their wedding. Over two years ago. A lot has happened since then that could've shaken up their beliefs even just a tiny bit.

It's hard to realize that your parents are wrong. It may be years before they are more vocal about their new belief system either due to fear of appearing disrespectful to their parents or facing disapproval from the public and acquaintances. We've already seen negative reactions on Alyssa's instagram whenever she wears a sleeveless top or short skirt. I can only imagine the snide remarks she may have received from friends like the Duggars. It would be much worse if she suddenly declared she's decided to use birth control (going with an extreme example here). It's going to be a hard journey for all these kids before they figure out where they belong in the world.

[LittleSpouseOnThePrairie]

And what's really difficult is feeling like you're living two different lives; trying to be yourself and exercise rules that make sense to you, while keeping up the appearance of adhereing to family rules for the sake of your parents and their social circle. 

[nastyhobbitses]

39 minutes ago, MissBitters said:

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think a lot of us here have such high expectations of rebellion that we set up ourselves for disappointment. I have no expectations of Gil and Kelly  or Jim Bob and Michelle ever changing their viewpoints. They are too enmeshed in the system. I'm more interested in what happens with their children. I think a majority of them will go through a quiet evolution of their beliefs that will remain conservative but not as restrictive. Maybe one or two from each family will pull a Suze Keller. Of course there will also be a handful who continue the same path as their parents.

Zach, Alyssa, and Jessa have already publicly stated that they have questioned some of their parents' beliefs. Yes, Erin and Chad did have a birthday cake for Bill Gothard at their wedding. Over two years ago. A lot has happened since then that could've shaken up their beliefs even just a tiny bit.

It's hard to realize that your parents are wrong. It may be years before they are more vocal about their new belief system either due to fear of appearing disrespectful to their parents or facing disapproval from the public and acquaintances. We've already seen negative reactions on Alyssa's instagram whenever she wears a sleeveless top or short skirt. I can only imagine the snide remarks she may have received from friends like the Duggars. It would be much worse if she suddenly declared she's decided to use birth control (going with an extreme example here). It's going to be a hard journey for all these kids before they figure out where they belong in the world.

That, and they've been told all their lives that questioning is bad. If you're doubting, you're a Doubting Thomas. Having absolute faith and conviction is what you're supposed to do. Obey your parents no matter what. Obey Gothard. Follow the rules Or Else. If you dress/act/talk/think like that, you're a sinner/whore/what have you. It's often hard enough to realize "hey, some of what my parents told me might be bullshit or just mistaken/misguided", come to terms with that, and be able to confront your parents about it when you're brought up in a more liberal/free-thinking family environment. Now imagine that you're brought up in a family environment where you're taught that disobeying your parents means that you will deserve to get raped or have a horrible life, and that breaking the rules might mean that your entire family/community could shun or abandon you.

I'd love it as much as the next girl if Jessa went all "fuck this shit", pulled on a pair of bedazzled blue jeans and a tube top, and ran off to Paris to run an atheist club, or if Alyssa just flat-out said that she wasn't going to keep going along with her family's weird-ass way of life, or if Jinger made a video where she said "yeah, I had a crisis of faith at fourteen and my parents beat it out of me, and now I think I finally realize that my parents' beliefs are weird, creepy, and wrong", but it's hard enough for Alyssa to take the baby step of wearing jeans, for Jessa to be somewhat assertive with her husband, or for Jinger to even admit that she had an independent thought one time. Their parents have made sure that they have few avenues to escape or see alternatives. That Kristiana girl was an aberration because she was able to go to "normal college" and choose a non-fundie husband. She had alternatives and could ease out of the ATI life (at least in comparison to other fundie girls like her). The Duggar and Bates girls really don't and can't unless they do little baby steps or go all-out at once.

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, LittleSpouseOnThePrairie said:

And what's really difficult is feeling like you're living two different lives trying to be yourself and exercise rules that make sense to you while keeping up the appearance of adhereing to family rules for the sake of your parents and their social circle. 

And on top of that, there has to be a whole lot of pressure to keep up the appearance of a happy family that gets along for the TV show. The show would start falling a part if the older kids refused to participate or refused to keep sweet about everything. The whole draw to both the Duggar and the Bates shows are all the kids, take out some of the kids or show that they aren't all happy and there will be no show. 

[SilverBeach]

On 2/18/2016 at 2:38 AM, AliceInFundyland said:

Respectfully, you need to do some more reading on the Bates. They may be more personable than the Duggars, but "just" fundies? No. Gil Bates is on the IBLP board, serving to cover up and clean up the scandal left behind by Mr. Gothard. The elder daughters have all married sons of other influential persons. 

Yeesh. Babies. I hope this works out for them too... Then I hope some doctor tells them she flat out can't have anymore or she has to have her tubes tied. Because I do think they they are loving parents to Carson, and loving to each other. They could have a good life. Science needs to cut God off at the pass.

The Bates are Nathan Bedford Forrest loving racist flucks. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any less of a pig.

[nastyhobbitses]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And on top of that, there has to be a whole lot of pressure to keep up the appearance of a happy family that gets along for the TV show. The show would start falling a part if the older kids refused to participate or refused to keep sweet about everything. The whole draw to both the Duggar and the Bates shows are all the kids, take out some of the kids or show that they aren't all happy and there will be no show. 

If Chuck Cunningham can mysteriously disappear from the plot of Happy Days, reality TV show suits can easily come up with 145040 reasons why at least one Bates/Duggar kid didn't want to be/couldn't be on the show. Alyssa is married and living in Florida. John-David is running a business and needs to attend to that. Zach is now a police officer and needs to focus on his job and not possibly jeopardize his position on the force. Josh was sent to a nice farm with plenty of fresh air where he can run and play all day long.

[formergothardite]

They could, but it would be weird to have shows about family holidays, weddings and events with several kids missing because they refuse to be a part of their parents selling a lie.  Their whole image is built around family, the Bates is especially that they are a happy, normal family. You start having kids who are refusing to participate and this image gets harder to maintain. 

[19 cats and counting]

Can the married adult kids disappear from the show?  Sure they can and the show can focus on the others.  But there's also the question of the almighty dollar.  Even though the married Bates husbands (and Erin)  have jobs and income streams away from the TV show, it's human nature not to turn away money.  

I'm sure the Keilens couldn't disappear from the show (weddings are great for TV) but by agreeing to let them film, UP either paid for the wedding/honeymoon or gave them a nice chunk of change to start their married lives with.  We'll see how often they're on the show now that they're in another state.  And for all we know, Allie Webster has a little nest egg all from the appearances/her birth that was on the show.  

I'm not a reality TV star and an intensely private person, but for the right amount of money, I'd agree to be filmed.

[MissBitters]

I suspect Alyssa is shrewd enough to make just enough appearances on the show in order to have a little extra income for her family.

On the same note, it's very likely Erin and Chad and Zach and Whitney use the show money to supplement their income as well. Both Chad and Zach work full-time and Erin is teaching piano, so it's not as if the show is their sole source of support. That does make me like them more than the married Duggars. If the show was yanked tomorrow, they would more than likely be okay. Not so sure about Gil and Kelly, though. Or Lawson for that matter. I sincerely hope he hasn't completely given up his lawn care business in favor of his music career.

Edit: I thought it would be good to add that I do consider Erin's music to be a career, but I also know that's not the case in their world. I am not belittling her work!

 

[felinefundie]

42 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

If Chuck Cunningham can mysteriously disappear from the plot of Happy Days, reality TV show suits can easily come up with 145040 reasons why at least one Bates/Duggar kid didn't want to be/couldn't be on the show. Alyssa is married and living in Florida. John-David is running a business and needs to attend to that. Zach is now a police officer and needs to focus on his job and not possibly jeopardize his position on the force. Josh was sent to a nice farm with plenty of fresh air where he can run and play all day long.

This is the best thing I'll read all day!  If only...

[Justme]

There are so many kids. If 1 or 2 weren't shown, I doubt many people would realize they are missing. 

[JMO]

39 minutes ago, Justme said:

There are so many kids. If 1 or 2 weren't shown, I doubt many people would realize they are missing. 

No one but us creepers!

19 hours ago, Kak said:

I know it's as old as can be, so kind of irrelevant, but it's funny, so

 

 

So I recognize Gothard and TFDW but who are the other two?  Should i know them?  I feel like I should. 

[FlamingFundie]

The one in the brown shirt next to TFDW is Chad Paine, isnt' it?

[Diana]

51 minutes ago, Justme said:

There are so many kids. If 1 or 2 weren't shown, I doubt many people would realize they are missing. 

It depends of which ones...Erin has a high profile on the show. Others like Katie or Trace barely appear on comparison.

[Kak]

15 minutes ago, JMO said:

No one but us creepers!

So I recognize Gothard and TFDW but who are the other two?  Should i know them?  I feel like I should. 

The guy on the left is Robert Staddon, another of the headquarters gang. He blogs too, at 

http://robertloveskendalyn.com

 Chad Paine is indeed in brown. Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed everyone would know them. 

 

[nausicaa]

17 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

The one in the brown shirt next to TFDW is Chad Paine, isnt' it?

Yep! Young adulthood was good to him and Alyssa. 

Also, David Waller. In a tee shirt over a button down shirt tucked into pleated front pants. Bless your heart, DW, bless your heart. 

[Coconut Flan]

 

Continued in Part 10: