Jill Duggar Dillard Part 8: They Call Him Choo Choo?

[twinmama]

6 hours ago, Playagirl said:

This. I see it a lot in younger folks, and by younger I mean under 30. I work with mostly university-educated people from mid 20s to late 50s and the younger ones can't seem to express a thought without throwing in at least a couple of 'likes.' This isn't meant to be a criticism, just an observation. Maybe it's just a 'thing,' kind of like the use of 'eh' by Canadians (I'm Canadian and use that one far too much). Something else I've noticed lately is beginning sentences with the word 'so' especially when offering an explanation for something. 

I'm 36 and used "like" constantly as a teenager. My parents always hounded me about it. Eventually just outgrew it. I'm a well educated regular adult, so it's not like a set in stone predictor of intelligence! It was definitely a replacement for "ummm" for me. Or instead of constantly saying "He said..." we'd say "he was like..." not correct, but that's how we used it!

[Playagirl]

48 minutes ago, twinmama said:

I'm 36 and used "like" constantly as a teenager. My parents always hounded me about it. Eventually just outgrew it. I'm a well educated regular adult, so it's not like a set in stone predictor of intelligence! It was definitely a replacement for "ummm" for me. Or instead of constantly saying "He said..." we'd say "he was like..." not correct, but that's how we used it!

Yeah, definitely not a predictor of intelligence. One that I do which is horrific grammar is misconjugating the verb 'to say.'  Instead of using the past tense I'll use 'says,' as in 'so then he says' instead of 'so then he said.' I know better but do it anyway.  It definitely sounds like a lack of education/intelligence but that's not the case at all.  My mom does the same as does her siblings but my own siblings don't do it which I can't explain except perhaps they're willing to make the effort to speak properly whereas I tend to be lazy in that respect.

[Bad Wolf]

Don't know if people still do this, but a lot of teens used to use the verb to go instead of to say. E.g. "She goes "that's what I meant"." 

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, twinmama said:

I'm 36 and used "like" constantly as a teenager. My parents always hounded me about it. Eventually just outgrew it. I'm a well educated regular adult, so it's not like a set in stone predictor of intelligence! It was definitely a replacement for "ummm" for me. Or instead of constantly saying "He said..." we'd say "he was like..." not correct, but that's how we used it!

I am a 60 year old university professor and there are times when I will say, "he was like..."  It is a contemporary expression.  

My comment about Jill's overuse of "like" was not about her lack of intelligence but her lack of education.   And I was thinking of the way she says "like" when trying to explain something or express anything remotely resembling an idea.  

Maybe it is just a bad speech habit, but I think it is a deeper problem in her case.  I see it as a sign that her linguistic resources are limited.  But I may be wrong.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, Playagirl said:

Yeah, definitely not a predictor of intelligence. One that I do which is horrific grammar is misconjugating the verb 'to say.'  Instead of using the past tense I'll use 'says,' as in 'so then he says' instead of 'so then he said.' I know better but do it anyway.  It definitely sounds like a lack of education/intelligence but that's not the case at all.  My mom does the same as does her siblings but my own siblings don't do it which I can't explain except perhaps they're willing to make the effort to speak properly whereas I tend to be lazy in that respect.

Actually I don't see "so then he says" as a grammatical error if you are telling the story completely in the present tense.  Using the present tense to tell a story is a time-honored rhetorical device to give the story immediacy.  

[ksgranola1]

"I seen" is the one that rubs me the wrong way. Are ppl so lazy that they can't use "I have seen" or "I saw?"

 

[MakeItSo]

I think some of the other Duggar girls use "like" a lot, too. Meechelle doesn't, but seems like she wasn't the younger kids' language model growing up. So if the older girls developed that habit somehow (maybe met someone at a homeschool conference who may have picked it up on TV (GASP) or somewhere else) and then started using it around the house, some of the others may have picked it up, too? I don't know haha'

As for myself...when someone asks me a question that is not a yes or no question, I still answer with "Yeah,...". I am aware now that I do it and I still can't stop. Example would be my mom just phoned me to ask when my flight arrives in Vancouver and I answered with "Yeah, I just checked my itinerary again...". I also still use "eh" and other little things (much to the amusement of all the Angelenos around me haha) but I believe there may still be a little difference between regional and generational stuff...like totally.

[PennySycamore]

5 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

"I seen" is the one that rubs me the wrong way. Are ppl so lazy that they can't use "I have seen" or "I saw?"

 

"I seen" is just bad grammar.  People don't seem to realize that the past perfect tense (In English) requires a helping  verb though they should have learned this in school.

[missegeno]

5 hours ago, MakeItSo said:

I think some of the other Duggar girls use "like" a lot, too. Meechelle doesn't, but seems like she wasn't the younger kids' language model growing up. So if the older girls developed that habit somehow (maybe met someone at a homeschool conference who may have picked it up on TV (GASP) or somewhere else) and then started using it around the house, some of the others may have picked it up, too? I don't know haha'

As for myself...when someone asks me a question that is not a yes or no question, I still answer with "Yeah,...". I am aware now that I do it and I still can't stop. Example would be my mom just phoned me to ask when my flight arrives in Vancouver and I answered with "Yeah, I just checked my itinerary again...". I also still use "eh" and other little things (much to the amusement of all the Angelenos around me haha) but I believe there may still be a little difference between regional and generational stuff...like totally.

Yup, they claim not to be tainted by television, but they seem to have been influenced at some level by it. Perhaps some ATI folk who actually watch tv passed on trends, but you are right that Mechelle is unlikely to be the source of this particular tendency. They also had a big "get 'er done" thing when they discussed why their courtships are so short. A bunch of them used that phrase, and I think it was aired a bit after that line got really big. 

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

"I seen" is the one that rubs me the wrong way. Are ppl so lazy that they can't use "I have seen" or "I saw?"

 

It is not laziness.  It is a feature of their dialect.  

Some dialects don't distinguish between simple past (saw) and past participle (seen). Other dialects don't use the "perfect" tenses at all. ("Have seen" = present perfect; "had seen" = past perfect).    "I seen," is a dialect version of "I saw."

It doesn't bother me in ordinary conversation, but it is out of place in public speaking, broadcasting, and most written communication. 

[Marissap]

6 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

It is not laziness.  It is a feature of their dialect.  

Some dialects don't distinguish between simple past (saw) and past participle (seen). Other dialects don't use the "perfect" tenses at all. ("Have seen" = present perfect; "had seen" = past perfect).    "I seen," is a dialect version of "I saw."

It doesn't bother me in ordinary conversation, but it is out of place in public speaking, broadcasting, and most written communication. 

I don't like it. The only times I hear it are from people I would commonly describe as hillbillies.  It just sounds wrong and unintelligent 

[MatthewDuggar]

The girls use "like" as a filler word.  I teach ESL and it's common for my students to find a filler word when they don't want to pause too often while speaking.  Some of my students that speak Korean as a native language tend to use "actually" rather than "like".  I would probably cringe if they said "like" as much as the Duggars. Usually I can't fault them in a conversational lesson, at least they are actually talking and not saying ummmm uhhhh, etc.

[EmCatlyn]

7 minutes ago, Marissap said:

I don't like it. The only times I hear it are from people I would commonly describe as hillbillies.  It just sounds wrong and unintelligent 

Yeah, we associate the hillbilly dialect with "unintelligent," and of course it sounds "wrong" to those of us who speak the standard dialect. 

I am more bothered by "could have went" as opposed to "could have gone."  It is another version of the same type of conflation of the simple past (went) and past participle (gone), but in the opposite direction than "I seen."  The reason it bothers me more is that I expect a speaker who is using a more complex form ("could have") than the simple tenses to be familiar with the past participle.  But that is a silly expectation outside the classroom.

While we are on the subject, the mistake (and this is a mistake, not a dialect difference)  that really bothers me the most is "Betty gave the book to Mary and I" OR  "Mary and me gave the cup to Betty."  

Both of these are wrong, and the mistake bothers me because all native speakers, regardless of dialect, know to say, "Betty gave the book to me," and "I gave the cup to Betty."  So when people misuse pronoun case --"I" is subjective case, "me" is objective case--when the pronoun is joined by a noun, it seems to me that they are violating their own intuitive sense of the language.  

We all have our pet peeves.  I just keep reminding myself that they are just peeves. 

[paulypepper]

40 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, we associate the hillbilly dialect with "unintelligent," and of course it sounds "wrong" to those of us who speak the standard dialect. 

I am more bothered by "could have went" as opposed to "could have gone."  It is another version of the same type of conflation of the simple past (went) and past participle (gone), but in the opposite direction than "I seen."  The reason it bothers me more is that I expect a speaker who is using a more complex form ("could have") than the simple tenses to be familiar with the past participle.  But that is a silly expectation outside the classroom.

While we are on the subject, the mistake (and this is a mistake, not a dialect difference)  that really bothers me the most is "Betty gave the book to Mary and I" OR  "Mary and me gave the cup to Betty."  

Both of these are wrong, and the mistake bothers me because all native speakers, regardless of dialect, know to say, "Betty gave the book to me," and "I gave the cup to Betty."  So when people misuse pronoun case --"I" is subjective case, "me" is objective case--when the pronoun is joined by a noun, it seems to me that they are violating their own intuitive sense of the language.  

We all have our pet peeves.  I just keep reminding myself that they are just peeves. 

I sometimes wonder if a lot of these language faux pas are regional, as living on the Indiana/Kentucky border it is very common for a wide majority of people to say "warsh" instead of "wash"...yeah one of my pet peeves.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

3 hours ago, paulypepper said:

I sometimes wonder if a lot of these language faux pas are regional, as living on the Indiana/Kentucky border it is very common for a wide majority of people to say "warsh" instead of "wash"...yeah one of my pet peeves.

My dad tends to say "warsh" and he's originally from Colorado. He also says,"Warshington." He's lived in many states, but none east of the Mississippi River. I've always wondered from what area that pronunciation sprang. 

 

As far as paging through a Bible and taking divine inspiration from a verse blindly pointed to, I always think of Dinah Morris in George Elliot's book, Adam Bede. 

 

I don't remember in which church I learned it, but I remember learning that when Jesus died on the cross, and the veil in the Temple (which kept the Holy of Holies separate) was torn in two, that it was to symbolize that humankind could approach God directly. That we didn't need a priesthood to approach God on our behalf. (I don't think the minister was speaking of Catholics specifically.)

[Sorry. Just caught up on the thread and I kept thinking of things to post.]

[MatthewDuggar]

5 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

My dad tends to say "warsh" and he's originally from Colorado. He also says,"Warshington." He's lived in many states, but none east of the Mississippi River. I've always wondered from what area that pronunciation sprang. 

 

I hear that from people that are usually from the east, but it crops up other places as well.  Very strange.  It's never from a certain mass population it seems, so I wonder if it's just a hand-me-down from closer, more remote family units.  It's one of the more humorous oddities to me, so never a huge bother. 

Also, the Arndt accent and inflection always mystifies me as well....

[MakeItSo]

What amuses me is that you don't think you have an accent until you move somewhere else and all of a sudden it's like you could be wearing neon pink and neon orange spandex and still be less noticeable than the one with the accent. Or simple word choices. Sometimes you're doing just fine and then you use one word and everyone goes, "ah!"  (I still say "washroom" and I will continue to say "washroom". *pounds table* .  ) I've really become more aware of accents and regional dialects since I've moved here for university and it's been fascinating. I could talk about it all day.

[EmCatlyn]

On December 21, 2015 at 6:23 PM, PennySycamore said:

"I seen" is just bad grammar.  People don't seem to realize that the past perfect tense (In English) requires a helping  verb though they should have learned this in school.

"I seen" can be a dialect form of "I saw."    Many dialect speakers do not use the present perfect or the past perfect at all. . We can be judgmental and call it "bad" grammar or we can say they speak a non-standard dialect.

[EmCatlyn]

14 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

I hear that from people that are usually from the east, but it crops up other places as well.  Very strange.  It's never from a certain mass population it seems, so I wonder if it's just a hand-me-down from closer, more remote family units.  It's one of the more humorous oddities to me, so never a huge bother. 

Also, the Arndt accent and inflection always mystifies me as well....

This website has some stuff about dialects and also some maps about dialect distribution in the USA.

For all those interested in dialects:

 

Dialect Maps and Dialect Descriptions USA

23 hours ago, paulypepper said:

I sometimes wonder if a lot of these language faux pas are regional, as living on the Indiana/Kentucky border it is very common for a wide majority of people to say "warsh" instead of "wash"...yeah one of my pet peeves.

Yes, dialects tend to be associated with different regions.  And what may be ok in one area is a faux pas somewhere else.  I have been mostly talking about grammar and dialect, but sounds/pronunciation are fascinating also.  Not long ago we had a discussion about the pronunciation of "pin" and "pen," didn't we?

I posted a link to dialect maps in another message, but here is a link to a fun quiz.

New York Times Dialect Quiz

[FakePigtails]

24 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

"I seen" can be a dialect form of "I saw."    Many dialect speakers do not use the present perfect or the past perfect at all. . We can be judgmental and call it "bad" grammar or we can say they speak a non-standard dialect.

I go with recognizing that it's both a dialect and grating as hell to me (along with 'have went')  And an offshoot of that is annoyance at how many people I know who don't think at all about how they or their friends and family use that dialect look down on AAVE despite it being a dialect too.

[paulypepper]

Methinks I'm getting over my head here.. "pin" and "pen" are prevalent here also...but seriously I love to just listen to how people say certain words or phrases, and part of me always gets snarky, but I enjoy it just the same.

[EmCatlyn]

1 minute ago, FakePigtails said:

I go with recognizing that it's both a dialect and grating as hell to me (along with 'have went')  And an offshoot of that is annoyance at how many people I know who don't think at all about how they or their friends and family use that dialect look down on AAVE despite it being a dialect too.

Agree completely.  People are always looking down on how "those others" talk.

As Henry Higgins puts it in My Fair Lady :

"An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him./  The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him."

 

[MakeItSo]

42 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

I posted a link to dialect maps in another message, but here is a link to a fun quiz.

New York Times Dialect Quiz

According to that quiz I'm from Spokane, WA...which is probably the closest they have to Vancouver haha. 

Did any of you guys take it to see how "accurate" it is?

[Maggie Mae]

7 minutes ago, MakeItSo said:

According to that quiz I'm from Spokane, WA...which is probably the closest they have to Vancouver haha. 

Did any of you guys take it to see how "accurate" it is?

Mine was surprisingly accurate. Two places I've lived and a random large city on the east coast that I did not live in. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I took the dialect quiz. It didn't show where I am (born and raised here), but it showed really close to where my mom grew up. Apparently, I am a dialect-ic mama's girl. No big surprise. (Funny thing is, my mom's parents came from Brooklyn, NY and Scotland.)