Jill Duggar Dillard Part 8: They Call Him Choo Choo?

[Bad Wolf]

6 hours ago, sawasdee said:

Very similar experience for me! When I went to Grammar school at age 11, we were each given a Douai Bible which we studied for the rest of our time at the school, and took with us when we left.

I remember that. We got the KJV, bigger and with pictures we could color in times of boredom. Also remember fish on Friday for school dinners. Not the good fish and chips kind, but something disgustingly white and tasteless. Probably served with over boiled cabbage, followed by prjnes for dessert. Ugh.

[silverspoons]

So Jill tells ET in an interview she can't go to language school anymore because it is too hard to juggle being a wife, mother and student. So the people donating are basically paying for her to be a stay at home mom?

Why can't she just say she wants to be a wife and mother and does not want to work. Her fan base would be happy to hear it.

[DigDugger]

I guess the network doesn't need any more South American footage.

[socalrules]

16 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

So Jill tells ET in an interview she can't go to language school anymore because it is too hard to juggle being a wife, mother and student. So the people donating are basically paying for her to be a stay at home mom?

Why can't she just say she wants to be a wife and mother and does not want to work. Her fan base would be happy to hear it.

Wait. What? I am confused. What is she a student of that she can't go to language school? She finished the fake midwife thing. How flipping lazy can she get? Does she understand there are single parents that work, take care of their kids and go to school? At least her mother had a work ethic in the beginning of her marriage until her kids were old enough to raise each other. She wants to be a missionary without putting in any of the work. Neither she nor Derrick have jobs and they have a significant amount of money. Hell, they could both be going to a real college full-time and would be ok. 

I am putting money on Jill not being able to keep up at language school. 

[EmmieJ]

7 hours ago, sockinshoe said:

That happened to me last year at university! It was Easter Sunday, to boot, and my boyfriend had to restrain me or I would have lunged straight for the guy's jugular.

I'm kind of sorry that your boyfriend stopped you.  Then again, since it was Easter Sunday, I suppose it was for the best. 

[Charliemae]

I was raised Christian but my family didn't attend church much.  My grandparents took me often enough.  I was TOLD that Catholics worship idols.  It's all in where you are standing I guess, but I see that as a very real perspective that some Christians hold.

 

I am an atheist now, so from where I'm standing you all are just talking to imaginary friends and playing with dolls. *shrug*

[DigDugger]

2 minutes ago, Charliemae said:

I was raised Christian but my family didn't attend church much.  My grandparents took me often enough.  I was TOLD that Catholics worship idols.  It's all in where you are standing I guess, but I see that as a very real perspective that some Christians hold.

I remember some of my elderly Methodist relatives complaining about Catholics because, in my relatives' words, the Catholics worshipped Mary more than they worshipped Jesus.

[EmmieJ]

5 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I do not understand why people think that Catholics don't use the Bible.

Because it would be a bit harder to disparage Catholics, like Allthegoodnamesaregone did.  Has that poster come back to respond to some of the responses? 

I am no longer a Catholic, but it irritates me when people spout off ignorant nonsense about what Catholics believe, or how they practice their faith.

[Imagine20]

The official doctrine of the WELS is that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.  I don't know about other Lutheran synods or other Protestant denominations.  There's way more to the anti-RC sentiment than idol worship. 

Just to be clear,  I was straight up excommunicated from the WELS and I've got other problems with them.  I don't believe what they do. 

[Drala]

5 minutes ago, DigDugger said:

I remember some of my elderly Methodist relatives complaining about Catholics because, in my relatives' words, the Catholics worshipped Mary more than they worshipped Jesus.

The Catholic Church is a staunch patriarchy, but it has a safety valve called Marian devotion to support people who need/want to approach God through a more feminized divinity.  Mary isn't God.  She's the Mother of God.  A clear difference, right?  

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I remember that. We got the KJV, bigger and with pictures we could color in times of boredom. Also remember fish on Friday for school dinners. Not the good fish and chips kind, but something disgustingly white and tasteless. Probably served with over boiled cabbage, followed by prjnes for dessert. Ugh.

Hee!  We attended public schools so were spared the cafeteria version of fish on Fridays.  I am vague on the details, but I remember that we had to stick to fish on Fridays only during Lent (?? I don't remember this being year-round).  Our fish Fridays were:  tuna pie, tuna cassarole, or fish sticks.  Every once in awhile, halibut, but that was too pricey to have often for feeding 2 adults and 8 kids.  (And mom packed pnut butter and jelly sandwiches for our school lunches that day)

12 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

The official doctrine of the WELS is that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.  I don't know about other Lutheran synods or other Protestant denominations.  There's way more to the anti-RC sentiment than idol worship. 

Just to be clear,  I was straight up excommunicated from the WELS and I've got other problems with them.  I don't believe what they do. 

Well Benedict XVI did give off an anti-christ vibe, but Pope Francis seems fairly decent.

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, silverspoons said:

So Jill tells ET in an interview she can't go to language school anymore because it is too hard to juggle being a wife, mother and student. So the people donating are basically paying for her to be a stay at home mom?

Why can't she just say she wants to be a wife and mother and does not want to work. Her fan base would be happy to hear it.

what does this say about Derrick? He does not support her interests? I get being a mother is hard, being a wife to a perfectly healthy man is hard to keep up with?

 

     I may have to investigate a bit, is he in language school all day? Or is he busy with other things. 

[OnceUponATime]

6 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

There's way more to the anti-RC sentiment than idol worship. 

Some other issues mentioned when I was young of why Catholics were wrong were: confession, penance and the existence of a pope.  (I'm not wanting to get into this, but I do want to add that most of the people taught to hate Catholics probably have very little idea of why).

To be honest, I do not understand why people would intercede to Mary. My SO (raised catholic) tried to explain it to me as 'she's his mother so she will put in an extra word for you' but that doesn't make any sense in the framework of religion that I try to place it in. If anyone has any other ideas on how to explain why/benefits of praying to Mary (or however you phrase it) feel free to inform me, I do want to try and understand.

Onto another question for the Catholics amongst us: is the pope well received or is he causing tension within/between the Catholic churches? I'm asking because when listening to what he's been saying in the last year or two I've been very surprised/shocked at things he has said. It sounds so far removed from everything I've ever heard about Catholicism. (I know that my perception will be a bit screwed up, but I was wondering how much)
 

 

[Whoosh]

21 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

As an ex-Catholic I have to say one of the reasons I left was because of the idol worship and the complete disregard for the bible.  But then I grew up in a house where religion and faith were NEVER talked about you just went to church and CCD classes with out question and with out complaint.  Hell my parents area still like that, and as a result my brother is an Atheist and my sister is agnostic.  Of the 3 I'm the only one who goes to any type of church and has raised our kids with any religious teachings.  A big point of contention was that our kids are not baptized, well mine are they chose to get baptized at about 10 years old, but not in the Catholic Church so it doesn't count. 

ITA about Jill, but I thought it was Derrick who wanted to get his little family far FAR away and fast from the cluster F that is her family. 

 

20 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Well IMO they do idol worship, praying to Statues of Mary, praying to saints.  As for the disregard of the bible, the church I attended bibles were NOT used, they had "the gospels" but that is it, an actually physical bible was never necessary.  We were given booklets that had the 4 gospels.  I'm am NOT kidding when I say we were not allowed to question why things where they way they were, so I'm very uninformed in much of the details of the catholic church.  When I was kicked out of CCD class in 2nd grade for asking to many questions, so I pretty much stopped paying attention when I was 8. 

 

I don't know enough outside of the ONE church we attended until I was 17, to argue with others.  These were my opinions gained from my personal experiences growing up. 

You say you are an ex-Catholic - can I ask what religion you were raised in?  What religion were the members of your extended family and community?  It sounds like you are saying you were raised Catholic and went to CCD, etc.  I was raised Episcopalian in a town and region where there are higher than average rates of Catholics and Jews and few Evangelicals.  I never ever heard anyone speak of Catholicism in this manner until long after I reached adulthood and had moved around the country quite a bit.  I have also known many former Catholics and can not imagine any of them viewing the religion this way.  That is just my experience obviously.  I guess I thought, rightly or wrongly, that this view of the Catholic religion was pretty much an Evangelical thing (#notallEvangelicals) and I guess I am wondering if there were strong Evangelical influences in your childhood.  I am also curious if you are comfortable sharing to know what type of baptism it is that the Catholic church would say doesn't count (unless I am reading that wrong and you mean something else).  I may just be miles away from correct on this, but it was my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes baptisms into any form of Christianity unless they believe there is some serious flaw in the intentions or purposes of the person who preformed the baptism.  Generally, I am one who would say don't speak for a group as a whole - but it is kind of my understanding that the role of the Pope is to speak for Catholics as a whole, so...

I am really curious about all of this - would love to hear any thoughts from/be corrected by anyone and I apologize in advance if I am mischaracterizing any belief system.  

ETA - Growing up I thought all public school students were blessed with Fish Friday lunches - live and learn.

[2manyKidzzz]

Pope Francis is very charismatic and seems very devoted to the poor and disenfranchised. He has not really changed any doctrine, but it talking something about divorced Catholics, who if they are remarried without having gotten an annulment cannot receive the sacraments. 

Right when he was elected I saw a picture of him riding the subway in Buenos Aires while he was archbishop going to the poor areas to work. So, I am a fan of his for the most part, but I am no longer Catholic. 

He really cares about the poor and that impresses me. But, who am I?!!!

[Grimalkin]

11 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

Some other issues mentioned when I was young of why Catholics were wrong were: confession, penance and the existence of a pope.  (I'm not wanting to get into this, but I do want to add that most of the people taught to hate Catholics probably have very little idea of why).

To be honest, I do not understand why people would intercede to Mary. My SO (raised catholic) tried to explain it to me as 'she's his mother so she will put in an extra word for you' but that doesn't make any sense in the framework of religion that I try to place it in. If anyone has any other ideas on how to explain why/benefits of praying to Mary (or however you phrase it) feel free to inform me, I do want to try and understand.

Onto another question for the Catholics amongst us: is the pope well received or is he causing tension within/between the Catholic churches? I'm asking because when listening to what he's been saying in the last year or two I've been very surprised/shocked at things he has said. It sounds so far removed from everything I've ever heard about Catholicism. (I know that my perception will be a bit screwed up, but I was wondering how much)
 

 

I think Catholics understand this but it's one thing to disagree with a person's faith and another thing to hate them for it. I have only heard negative talk about the pope from super conservative Catholics. 

       I tried to understand Marian devotion but it's not for me. One interesting thing bought up was someone mentioning that at the wedding at Cana Mary asked him to change the water into wine, at first he said no but she insisted and he did what she told him too. And one more thing I heard was that Marion devotion is to bring you to Jesus since Mary bought us Jesus. If Marion devotion does not bring you to Jesus there is something wrong with it.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, Drala said:

RE: Catholics and the Bible.  I used to teach 9th/10th grade religion in a Catholic school.  The curriculum was....drumroll...Old and New Testament.  We studied the literary, historic and cultural contexts of the scriptures as well as key passages.  I'm no longer Catholic, but I can most definitely say Catholics read and study scripture.  They just don't get into bibliolatry like some of the solo scriptura folks are prone to do.

 

I am glad someone finally mentioned BIBLIOLATRY.  

It is interesting that many of the same folks who accuse Roman Catholics of worshipping idols are also inclined to get caught up in what amounts to the idolization of the Bible.  

An example would be those people who pray for guidance then close their eyes and open the Bible at random then poke a finger on a page to determine what God wants them to do. 

While I have a lot of disagreements with how the RCs operate and could be said to have left the Church when I opted to raise my children Uniitarian (if not sooner), I do feel Catholics have a healthier relationship with holy scripture than Protestant Fundies.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

 

You say you are an ex-Catholic - can I ask what religion you were raised in?  What religion were the members of your extended family and community?  It sounds like you are saying you were raised Catholic and went to CCD, etc.  I was raised Episcopalian in a town and region where there are higher than average rates of Catholics and Jews and few Evangelicals.  I never ever heard anyone speak of Catholicism in this manner until long after I reached adulthood and had moved around the country quite a bit.  I have also known many former Catholics and can not imagine any of them viewing the religion this way.  That is just my experience obviously.  I guess I thought, rightly or wrongly, that this view of the Catholic religion was pretty much an Evangelical thing (#notallEvangelicals) and I guess I am wondering if there were strong Evangelical influences in your childhood.  I am also curious if you are comfortable sharing to know what type of baptism it is that the Catholic church would say doesn't count (unless I am reading that wrong and you mean something else).  I may just be miles away from correct on this, but it was my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes baptisms into any form of Christianity unless they believe that the person/group that there is some serious flaw in the intentions or purposes of the person who preformed the baptism.  Generally, I am one who would say don't speak for a group as a whole - but it is kind of my understanding that the role of the Pope is to speak for Catholics as a whole, so...

I am really curious about all of this - would love to hear any thoughts from anyone and I apologize in advance if I am mischaracterizing any belief system.  

ETA - Growing up I thought all public school students were blessed with Fish Friday lunches - live and learn.

You are correct - the RC counts as valid any Christian baptism which uses water and is from a faith which believes in the trinity (Father/Son/Holy Spirit.  Three but also one.)

And yeah - the whole ability to speak for the Catholic church is one of those Pope perks of the job...but as we all know that doesn't mean he speaks for every individual Catholics as we all have our own conscience.  When differences of belief are significant enough for one to be considered no longer practicing is a very complicated area.

I do know that if every Catholic I know who believes in gay marriage equality, is pro-choice politically (even when not a choice they would make personally), and uses birth control (because you can't be Duggars with the cost of parochial school tuition these days!) the pews around here would be empty.

Catholics tend to lean socially liberal in my experience, in many areas.  Maybe this comes from being in an area chock full of Catholics but we tend to not care what faith others choose to practice as long as it's not being pushed on us or the public sector in a way that affects us.  Unless you want to marry into our families and then often even the least practicing among us will stay wary until we trust you're not going to try and convert us.

People are ALWAYS trying to convert us.  That's why I don't get why Jill and Derek had to go out of the country to annoy Catholics - it's not like they can't do that here.  Annoy locally and save the difference.

[SledCat]

Good lord. I just watched the clip of Jill and her language lesson at home. It seems like she hands the baby off to anyone, including her teacher. It doesn't matter to me if the teacher has kids of her own/loves kids, etc. I thought she was there to teach an adult language lesson, not be a glorified baby sitter. That is disrespectful.

These guys are so boring. They have already resorted to talking about the weather. It is really rainy. That is compelling tv.

[Whoosh]

Thanks for your thoughts Buffy.  In my own mind when I think or say that the Pope speaks for all Catholics I think I probably really mean that the Pope speaks for the official position of every Catholic Church.  I know that many members of the faith and even many leaders of the faith have views that diverge to at least some extent.  I think by and large that is how it works in the Episcopalian realm also, they just have some type of committee type group (which I should know the name of) rather than the Pope, etc. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am glad someone finally mentioned BIBLIOLATRY.  

It is interesting that many of the same folks who accuse Roman Catholics of worshipping idols are also inclined to get caught up in what amounts to the idolization of the Bible.  

An example would be those people who pray for guidance then close their eyes and open the Bible at random then poke a finger on a page to determine what God wants them to do. 

While I have a lot of disagreements with how the RCs operate and could be said to have left the Church when I opted to raise my children Uniitarian (if not sooner), I do feel Catholics have a healthier relationship with holy scripture than Protestant Fundies.

 

Is this a thing?  Kind of like a magic 8 ball?

ETA the second bolded is nice but to paraphrase Kathleen Madigan, Catholics don't read the bible, we read the bulletin.  Way more important to find out who died and what's for lunch.  

I do agree with you in how it's approached by the RCC itself as they study and interpret it - and I was always taught that the stories like the flood, and Adam being made out of dirt and Eve his rib were allegory and parables...that it wasn't literally 7 days.  

But the Catholics I know who have read the bible have done it for more academic reasons. None of the Catholics in my world reach for the bible when troubled about something, and none of the fundy-lites in my world reach for anything else.

[EmmieJ]

34 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

Some other issues mentioned when I was young of why Catholics were wrong were: confession, penance and the existence of a pope.  (I'm not wanting to get into this, but I do want to add that most of the people taught to hate Catholics probably have very little idea of why).

To be honest, I do not understand why people would intercede to Mary. My SO (raised catholic) tried to explain it to me as 'she's his mother so she will put in an extra word for you' but that doesn't make any sense in the framework of religion that I try to place it in. If anyone has any other ideas on how to explain why/benefits of praying to Mary (or however you phrase it) feel free to inform me, I do want to try and understand.

Onto another question for the Catholics amongst us: is the pope well received or is he causing tension within/between the Catholic churches? I'm asking because when listening to what he's been saying in the last year or two I've been very surprised/shocked at things he has said. It sounds so far removed from everything I've ever heard about Catholicism. (I know that my perception will be a bit screwed up, but I was wondering how much)

Thanks for adding some clarification, although I am still puzzled overall.  Why would confessing sins be looked down upon, or is it the confessing to a priest who then dispenses forgiveness on behalf of God?  Is that the problem - the use of a middle man?  Same question re penance?  Is the act of doing penance looked down upon, or is it that the priest tells the parishioner what penance to do?

All the legalities about religion and how one should practice it "correctly" play a large role in why I have no interest in any organized religion.  It all seems so petty in the end.  "You're doing it wrong!"  So what if I pray to Mary to help me get through a difficult time; or if I wear a St. Christopher medallion on a chain, or if I light a candle, or if I kneel at a certain point in the mass or if I don't.  If God is a bean counter, adding or subtracting demerits because my skirt hits me above my knee, or my hair is cut too short, or if I gave a full on hug to a friend of the opposite sex, then we're all screwed in the afterlife anyway - it's going to be miserable! 

All I know for sure is if there is an afterlife, please don't let me end up with all those kill joys.  Can I just go to wherever cats and dogs go when they die, like some big meadow with lots of shade trees, mild temperatures, plenty of clean water to drink?  Or wherever Robin Williams and Richard Pryor are hanging out - that would be cool too.

[Timetostoplurking]

I think the whole point is.....you don't have to agree, disagree or understand all the fine points/dogma of the Catholic faith to recognize that it is a legitimate Christian denomination.  (It has been around for a couple of millennium after all.). The fact that other denominations don't think RC is "Christian" really annoys me!  Who's that hanging on the cross then??

[Whoosh]

19 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

<snip>  Is that the problem - the use of a middle man?  Same question re penance?  Is the act of doing penance looked down upon, or is it that the priest tells the parishioner what penance to do? <snip>

 

Speaking only for myself and what I was taught in the Episcopal Church, yes, the bolded is the problem.  I don't recall anyone ever specifically discussing the Catholic faith and Episcopalians certainly believe that Catholics are Christians.  That said the proper or better way of doing things is to open your heart, your soul, your mind, and your life to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  The middle men are just seen as mucking that up.  Same type of thing for the penance part. I don't think it entirely matters that a middle man decides the penance, but rather you are supposed to open your heart to God to lead.  Something like saying a rosary or doing penance would again been seen as mucking that up.  So basically we were taught that Catholics do some stuff that weakens the relationship with God or mucks things up a bit, but that wasn't seen as anything that would mean someone wasn't Catholic or would not go to Heaven.

[Bad Wolf]

A nice Jewish boy.