All Things Dillard - Part 6

[2manyKidzzz]

Maybe she just wants the certification/passing the test. If she is nursing, she can't go out on labor calls. At all.

[EmCatlyn]

:lol:

Well hopefully Jill is not one of those people if she plans to be pregnant as much as her mother

:D

I agree. But since Jill has stated that she doesn't want to practice midwifery while raising her own family, we may be worrying needlessly.

For my part, I think that Jill may learn enough to be helpful. It is unlikely she is going to be delivering babies on her own, and her training, however minimal, may help her give comfort and support.

[kmary1]

I don't know where exactly in Central America they plan to be, but in the one area of Guatemala I visited, things like knowing when to transport the mother to the hospital during childbirth would be totally irrelevant. Especially for the poor (which is most of the population), transporting to a hospital would not even be an option. Most don't own a car so your options are a chicken bus (old school buses from the US packed with 70 people) or the back of a pickup truck with 10 other people. The hospital might be 2 hours away on a mountainous dirt road. It's pretty much like the pioneer days, where each village has a midwife who is training a couple younger women, and you had better hope you have a fairly normal delivery or your chance of dying in childbirth is real.

If the village is lucky, they might have an under-funded clinic nearby that might employ some med school students from the US on a medical rotation and maybe one doctor. The clinic my group worked with had us bring a bunch of aspirin from the US because they couldn't buy enough in Guatemala.

So the duties of a midwife in the US, where you can make the call to go to a real hospital, and the duties of a midwife in a developing country are worlds apart, and her "certification" would mean close to nothing there. It might be a good start, but she would still need years of training alongside an actual midwife. I could see her working as a midwife in some sort of Christian clinic that hopefully does have an actual doctor, though.

[EmmieJ]

Is it possible for Jill to learn effective, safe midwifery practices? Yes. Is she going to? Magic 8 Ball says, "Not likely".

I do so love the Magic 8 ball. :lol: It must be the heathen in me!

[Themiscyran]

I don't know where exactly in Central America they plan to be, but in the one area of Guatemala I visited, things like knowing when to transport the mother to the hospital during childbirth would be totally irrelevant. Especially for the poor (which is most of the population), transporting to a hospital would not even be an option. Most don't own a car so your options are a chicken bus (old school buses from the US packed with 70 people) or the back of a pickup truck with 10 other people. The hospital might be 2 hours away on a mountainous dirt road. It's pretty much like the pioneer days, where each village has a midwife who is training a couple younger women, and you had better hope you have a fairly normal delivery or your chance of dying in childbirth is real.

If the village is lucky, they might have an under-funded clinic nearby that might employ some med school students from the US on a medical rotation and maybe one doctor. The clinic my group worked with had us bring a bunch of aspirin from the US because they couldn't buy enough in Guatemala.

So the duties of a midwife in the US, where you can make the call to go to a real hospital, and the duties of a midwife in a developing country are worlds apart, and her "certification" would mean close to nothing there. It might be a good start, but she would still need years of training alongside an actual midwife. I could see her working as a midwife in some sort of Christian clinic that hopefully does have an actual doctor, though.

Have you ever read any works on the anthropology of birth? Like Brigitte Jordan's Birth in Four Cultures or Childbirth and Authoritative Knowledge: Cross-Cultural Perspectives by Davis-Floyd? Fascinating stuff. I mention it because not only are technological things different across different countries, so are the cultures surrounding births. Things like the expectations of how things will go, who should be in the birthing area, attitudes towards managing pain, etc. When I first read Jordan's work , it really blew my mind to realize that the "normal" US way of doing things was far from universal. And the difference wasn't 3rd world vs. 1st world or Western vs. non-Western. Even though urban Sweden and urban Holland and the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico are all really different places with really different birth customs, none of those cultures viewed birth as an emergency the way US culture does. (But they were different again from each other-I believe it was the Dutch where midwives were prevalent and painkillers were frowned upon while in Sweden hospital births were the norm and mothers were basically put in charge of their own pain meds--of course this was the 80s so I'm sure some things have changed.)

I guess what this is making me think is that even if Jill were to train in Guatemala or wherever, she's really not intellectually equipped to be analytical about those cultural differences, even leaving aside the technological differences. Would a Guatemalan midwife even want to work with an incredibly insular white woman from Arkansas with zero sense of cultural relativism? :pink-shock: I mean, it's not like the SOTDRT had a lot of room for trying to understand people of different cultural backgrounds IN ARKANSAS, let alone elsewhere.

[Drala]

I mean, it's not like the SOTDRT had a lot of room for trying to understand people of different cultural backgrounds IN ARKANSAS, let alone elsewhere.

I have often thought the reason TLC had the family travel around was to expose the kids to the wider world. Such travel inspires a certain level of relativistic reflection, even in the most sheltered individuals. How are yah gonna keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree?

[VTSleeper]

Assuming they attended an immersion school for Spanish, isn't the whole point of an immersion program to be immersed in the language? They aren't doing themselves any favors by being in the USA for a month.

[Arete]

Let's face it, Jill's training is nowhere near what a legitimate nurse midwife gets, and it is really an insult to call them both the same thing even if Jill passes some test. Jill as a doula? Sure. Independent midwife? Come on.

[RosyDaisy]

My husband (an EMT) is more qualified to assist in childbirth than Jill, IMO. He has a degree from UoAL Birmingham and real medical training.

[princessmahina]

I have often thought the reason TLC had the family travel around was to expose the kids to the wider world. Such travel inspires a certain level of relativistic reflection, even in the most sheltered individuals. How are yah gonna keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree?

If that's an Archer reference, then I love you.

(And if it isn't, please disregard :lol: )

[Naga Viper]

If that's an Archer reference, then I love you.

(And if it isn't, please disregard :lol: )

It's a song from WWI (or just after, I guess):

[bBvideo 560,340:3mwpwrjs]

[/bBvideo]

[devoe364]

That would make a lot of things make sense. If It's difficult for her to learn, JB might have developed more of a soft spot for her; and if it's gratifying for her and her parents that she accept every tenet willingly and with a childlike trust ... all the more endearing.

Said with absolutely no prejudice against, nor contempt for, people who have significantly different learning abilities than the mainstream. Just an "ah-ha and mm-HM!" moment.

I think that JBoob sees Jill as the perfect daughter - she has done everything the way Daddy told her to, so she is perfect and the favourite. She is sweet - always. She curls her hair in Gothard curls and married a Daddy-approved man, had a Daddy-approved wedding and popped out a baby within 10 months of marriage (and if you think she didn't learn a thing or two about ovulation and the right time to have sex to have a baby during her MW training, I would say you're wrong about that).

So as a narcissist - JBoob holds her up as an extension of his perfection. She could only be this perfect because she is his child and she did as she was told under his headship. She is his perfect Christian warrior.

I'd put money on Jill expecting again by Christmas. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the birth of Jessa's child isn't followed by a pregnancy announcement from Jill. Followed of course by one from Anna, because the first thing Smuggar will do when he gets home is knock her up again.

[Librul]

^^^^

I would be surprised if she's not already pregnant. Not because I am body shaming her, or think she is fat, but because in her world, enough time has passed already! Time for # 2.

Besides, being a missionary isn't so hard if most of your time is spent travelling home and being home and the few weeks you are in Guatemala, you have a couple of Jslaves to raise your child and do your cooking.

[ClaraOswin]

I agree. I don't think she looks pregnant necessarily. No more than I do (and I'm not!) But...yeah...in her world...she's probably going to be pregnant soon. Which, IMO, is flat out stupid! After a c-section, you should NOT get pregnant that quickly again. So not safe.

If she is pregnant again soon...I will judge her quite harshly.

[Alexa]

I expect an announcement from Jill that she's pregnant with number 2 between the birth of baby Seewald and the new year.

[YourGodIsNotMine]

I agree. I don't think she looks pregnant necessarily. No more than I do (and I'm not!) But...yeah...in her world...she's probably going to be pregnant soon. Which, IMO, is flat out stupid! After a c-section, you should NOT get pregnant that quickly again. So not safe.

If she is pregnant again soon...I will judge her quite harshly.

Getting pregnant so quickly after a C-section is not medically recommended, but it's not the end of the world and it doesn't pose that much danger to the mother. I had 2 C-sections 16 months apart (the second pregnancy was unplanned) and we were all healthy and happy.

[from the bible belt]

Have you ever read any works on the anthropology of birth? Like Brigitte Jordan's Birth in Four Cultures or Childbirth and Authoritative Knowledge: Cross-Cultural Perspectives by Davis-Floyd? Fascinating stuff. I mention it because not only are technological things different across different countries, so are the cultures surrounding births. Things like the expectations of how things will go, who should be in the birthing area, attitudes towards managing pain, etc. When I first read Jordan's work , it really blew my mind to realize that the "normal" US way of doing things was far from universal. And the difference wasn't 3rd world vs. 1st world or Western vs. non-Western. Even though urban Sweden and urban Holland and the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico are all really different places with really different birth customs, none of those cultures viewed birth as an emergency the way US culture does. (But they were different again from each other-I believe it was the Dutch where midwives were prevalent and painkillers were frowned upon while in Sweden hospital births were the norm and mothers were basically put in charge of their own pain meds--of course this was the 80s so I'm sure some things have changed.)

I guess what this is making me think is that even if Jill were to train in Guatemala or wherever, she's really not intellectually equipped to be analytical about those cultural differences, even leaving aside the technological differences. Would a Guatemalan midwife even want to work with an incredibly insular white woman from Arkansas with zero sense of cultural relativism? :pink-shock: I mean, it's not like the SOTDRT had a lot of room for trying to understand people of different cultural backgrounds IN ARKANSAS, let alone elsewhere.

You are right about that, giving birth at home is still the normal way to go here. Although it is shifting to hospital births little by little. Painkillers are not the norm here and to some people it is considered a bit of a failure.

[devoe364]

Getting pregnant so quickly after a C-section is not medically recommended, but it's not the end of the world and it doesn't pose that much danger to the mother. I had 2 C-sections 16 months apart (the second pregnancy was unplanned) and we were all healthy and happy.

While I agree that getting pregnant so quickly after a C-section is a bad idea, I have a friend who was severely anorexic and bulimic in high school. Her hips did not shift enough during puberty and as a result, vaginal births are not recomended for her. She's had 5 C-sections, and has 5 happy and healthy kids - of course, her kids are 7, 5, 3, 2 and the new baby so she had more time to heal between most kids, however she had her daughter and third son only 18 months apart.

So yes, the risks go up, however each situation is different. That said, Jill has no need to get prego again so soon.

[2manyKidzzz]

It seems as though the "rules" of Jill's lifestyle religion dictate that she just has to get pregnant as soon as possible. Always. She is obviously pretty fertile, so it seems obvious what will happen. They aren't allowed to do anything but let Jesus rule their life and have as many kids as possible.

From what I understand, this is their only choice. Interesting in theory before you have kids, grueling in practice.

[singsingsing]

The most worrying thing about Jill is not that she may be pregnant again soon and thus on track to have 2 C-sections, or a C-section and a VBAC less than two years apart. The troubling thing is that she plans on doing it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. What if she can never deliver vaginally? What happens when she's 30 years old, has had 5 C-sections in quick succession, and still has ~15 years of fertility ahead of her? What happens if/when her doctors advise her to never get pregnant again? What if that happens when she's 25 with two kids? How much is she actually willing to risk for the sake of her belief that birth control is evil?

[from the bible belt]

While I agree that getting pregnant so quickly after a C-section is a bad idea, I have a friend who was severely anorexic and bulimic in high school. Her hips did not shift enough during puberty and as a result, vaginal births are not recomended for her. She's had 5 C-sections, and has 5 happy and healthy kids - of course, her kids are 7, 5, 3, 2 and the new baby so she had more time to heal between most kids, however she had her daughter and third son only 18 months apart.

So yes, the risks go up, however each situation is different. That said, Jill has no need to get prego again so soon.

:pink-shock: 5?? Ieksssss

I have 2, was advised never to get pregnant within a year after a c-section because it can be dangerous to both mother and child and was told after my second one that they would only do 3 at the most and in my case please do not do another because we are afraid that we end up with 3 kids and no mom.

C-sections are,when they are performed for medical reasons, are not a walk in the park

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

Jill doesn't seem like there is something medically wrong with her but she seems like a ditz. Ironically enough, I think if she grew up more secular and wasn't homeschooled by Mommy Dearest, she would be one of the more booksmart children...or at least would have studied quite often. I don't get why people think Jana is so much smarter than Jill? Sure, she might have more common sense than her sister but their fundamental knowledge is about the same and just as mediocre. Anyone remember that JTTH journal entry from Jana? Unfortunately, they are both ignorant young women to no fault of their own. I mean, they were taught the Earth is 6,000 years old. :cry:

(Jana does get bonus points for at least acknowledging Evolution "kind of makes sense")

[devoe364]

:pink-shock: 5?? Ieksssss

I have 2, was advised never to get pregnant within a year after a c-section because it can be dangerous to both mother and child and was told after my second one that they would only do 3 at the most and in my case please do not do another because we are afraid that we end up with 3 kids and no mom.

C-sections are,when they are performed for medical reasons, are not a walk in the park

Hers have never been a walk in the park, but they were medically necessary for the safety of her children. That said, her pregnancies were all high risk because of the potential complications and she spent at least 3 months on bed rest with her first two pregnancies. Then when her second was born, she contracted H1N1. That was fun.

That said, Jill will likely avoid BC like the plague. I could see Derek maybe using NFP without telling her if it becomes dangerous, but even then, you never know.

[socalrules]

I worry Jill is like Michelle in that she would rather die in childbirth that stop trying to have more babies. Jill has been raised with the belief that she is nothing if she doesn't continue to have babies. I don't for a minute believe she will go on birth control or use natural family planning. Jill wants to institute the same madness her parents did when protecting brothers and sisters from each other to avoid molestation. If she believes they were correct in that, why wouldn't she believe that she should keep having babies regardless of whether it puts her life at risk? Her mom did it without a second thoughts

[princessmahina]

Jill looks up to Michelle, who kept attempting to "catch a baby" after the Josie drama. I don't see Jill taking medical advice into account. She probably sees that her own mother didn't and ended up with 19 healthy children, so why should she?