Joshley Madison Part 6 - Sin, Confess, Repeat

[Themiscyran]

Does anyone else find it sad that Dad Seewald sounds more supportive of Anna than Pa Keller? I mean, whatever else you say, there was no "but King David did it!" in the Seewald post.

(Admittedly, being more supportive than Pa Keller is a low, low bar.)

[Laurabelle]

I think I can understand the logic. He was a teen when he molested his sisters. It is, of course, a very serious offense, something which needing to be dealt with seriously, but he was a teen and there was hope he could improve and take a better way, far from his previous sins and offenses. People who committed very bad things can turn into decent people after having being punished and helped, when they are truely helped. But Josh has been nor punished nor helped, and he has turned into a very poor husband and the older he gets the less it seems to be hope he improves some day and really turns into a decent man, at least. As I understand it, the statement does not lessen the child molestation but implies no one drew the appropriate consequences after the child molestation.

I agree. Not with them, but with your assessment. With the molestation, they can say, "well, it was a long time ago, he's changed, blah blah blah. There's literally no way to excuse or spin the cheating. Sad. I had a few Facebook friends who went along with the "forgive him, it was a long time ago" rhetoric from the first scandal, who then were admitting they were wrong about brushing the molestations off when the second scandal came out.

[HarryPotterFan]

Does anyone else find it sad that Dad Seewald sounds more supportive of Anna than Pa Keller? I mean, whatever else you say, there was no "but King David did it!" in the Seewald post.

(Admittedly, being more supportive than Pa Keller is a low, low bar.)

Very low bar indeed. It's kind of like saying at least he's nicer than Voldemort.

[blessalessi]

Very low bar indeed. It's kind of like saying at least he's nicer than Voldemort.

It is a low bar, but it was notable to me that Seewald mentioned Anna compassionately, but kept her quite separate from any hellfire he directed at Josh. Pa Keller is a vile piece of shit in every way possible.

[VTSleeper]

I agree. Not with them, but with your assessment. With the molestation, they can say, "well, it was a long time ago, he's changed, blah blah blah. There's literally no way to excuse or spin the cheating. Sad. I had a few Facebook friends who went along with the "forgive him, it was a long time ago" rhetoric from the first scandal, who then were admitting they were wrong about brushing the molestations off when the second scandal came out.

I agree as well. You can think that the molestation was horrible behavior, but also believe that he had truly changed. When the Ashley Madison information came out, you could no longer believe that he had changed - and that alone could legitimately change your opinion of Josh as a person.

[NewSeasonOfLife]

I interpret this as Jim Bob trying to send a message to other fundies that is not his fault. He reposts "this is what you're supposed to do and by extension, this is what we did."

And the other fundies see it and nod along, "yes, that's right. That's what you're supposedoing to do. Jim Bob and Michelle did everything right and nothing wrong."

Jim Bob and Michelle spent their entire Megyn Kelly interview saying "we didn't do anything wrong. We handled everything exactly right."

It apparently never occurs to them that they might have handled something incorrectly.

I think if they did admit they did something, anything, wrong things would go better for them right now. Even if it was as simple as admitting they committed the sin of pride in believing they were a more godly and faithful family than others', or were too vocal in proclaiming their faithfulness.

I know a lot of people here (Nashville, the fundie capitol of the world) who are very torn, because they are weirdly bothered more by the Fox interview where they blamed everyone but themselves for their issues than they were by the molestation ("kids will be kids") and the adultery. I think a meek public confession that's semi-sincere would get them a lot of support back, and a humbled Josh coming back with testimony in six months might complete the job, at least amongst the Christian fandom crowd.

[salex]

I'm sorry if this is a repost, however, I was looking into the place Josh is seeking "help" and learned a few things about it that didn't surprise me, but also made me disgusted.

Per Inquisitor

A co-founder of Reformers Unanimous (RU), the Christian rehabilitation center in Rockford, Illinois, that Josh Duggar checked into following revelation that he had accounts with the adultery website Ashley Madison, is allegedly helping a sexual offender stay overseas on Christian mission to avoid prosecution in the United States.

According to a report by Patheos, Reformers Unanimous, co-founded in 1996 by North Love Baptist Church pastor Paul Kingsbury, as a ministry of the church, is sponsoring Richard DeVall, a missionary serving in Bolivia with the Baptist Pioneer Mission Agency. DeVall was accused of committing sexual assault on the campus of Bob Jones University (BJU) in the 1990s and was expelled from the university.

. . .Kingsbury is allegedly providing financial support through his church to DeVall, who has refused to return to the U.S. to face charges of sexual assault after the victim reported to the authorities in 2012, and asked the Baptist Pioneer Mission (BPM) to allow DeVall return to the U.S. to face criminal charges.

BPM refused to grant the victim’s request, saying that DeVall had repented “to the mission board by confessing his offense and writing a letter of apology.â€

BPM also refused to grant the request that DeVall be removed from his overseas post “due to potential risks he could pose to others.â€

AND

Patheos also reports that Kingsbury had a relationship with Jack Schaap, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Hammond, currently serving a 12 year prison sentence after he was convicted of having sexual relations with an underage parishioner.

First Baptist Church also operates a chapter of Reformers Unanimous, introduced by Schaap.

According to the Chicago Magazine,Schaap was “part of what some call a deeply embedded culture of misogyny and sexual and physical abuse.â€

“Kingsbury’s relationship with Schaap—and Schaap’s relationship with Reformer’s Unanimous—raises concerning questions about the culture of Reformers Unanimous,†Patheos adds.

and finally

“Reformers Unanimous does not appear to have any licensed counselors on staff…â€

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2378049/josh-d ... AGOcIGF.99

So, it sounds like the Duggars sent Josh to a place that will not have high expectations, will not offer him any sort of real help beyond praying temptation away, and a place that caters to christian men who "stray" sexually, giving them a gold star for attendance.

[Tenyari]

OFF TOPIC but every time I see this theme's name I think of Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, I don't know why but Joshley Madison just sounds like a titular book character too me

Joshley Madison and the Mortal Sins? Joshley Madison and the Prisoner(s) of Fundamentalism? Joshley Madison's a Series of Unfortunate Events

[RabbitKM]

I agree that it is very strange that the majority of leg humpers find it worse that Josh was unfaithful to his wife than molested his little sisters. But I think part of it has to do with the order in which we found out this info. If the Ashley Madison hack had come out first, people would probably be mad that he was unfaithful and etc, but Josh could easily win them back by saying he no longer goes on the site, it was a mistake, etc etc. And then a few months later, having the molestation come out, I think that would set people off the edge.

[Alicja]

OFF TOPIC but every time I see this theme's name I think of Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, I don't know why but Joshley Madison just sounds like a titular book character too me

Joshley Madison and the Mortal Sins? Joshley Madison and the Prisoner(s) of Fundamentalism? Joshley Madison's a Series of Unfortunate Events

I would read that.

[TL;DR]

I would read that.

We pretty much are reading that. :)

[enigmata]

Have finally caught up with all 6 parts.

Feel so bad for Anna having such a terrible Father. Yes, she chose her husband (to some extent) but didn't choose to have a Father who was such a jerk.

My Dad drives me crazy at times but I know he is behind me 100% and would drop everything to be there for me. Pa Keller is a joke of a Father - have been reading the John Shrader thread and see a similar theme emerging. He marries his daughters off to idiots and then washes his hands of them.

I feel so sorry for Anna and, to a degree, Josh as feel they have never really stood a chance with such terrible role models as parents. Saw the episode with JB and Michelle dry humping on the golf course!!!! :disgust:

The whole bunch are crazy. I am a Christian and grew up in a non-Fundie Christian household. My mum was brought up fairly Fundie (I would have said very but that was before reading some of the stuff here - we're in the UK so I guess Fundie is different here). She was allowed to marry my Dad (even though he was the wrong type of Christian) but we were always made to feel second best compared to my Auntie's children who were good Christians who wore skirts and hats to Church.

I am now a Church leader and preach - and my Auntie and Uncle are disgusted and believe I'm going to hell as I'm not of the right gender to be a patriarch :D

Anyway, really hoping that Anna will get the support she needs whatever she decides and that - even though it seems doubtful from the information we have - Josh will get some sort of help from the facility he is attending.

[nokidsmom]

I agree as well. You can think that the molestation was horrible behavior, but also believe that he had truly changed. When the Ashley Madison information came out, you could no longer believe that he had changed - and that alone could legitimately change your opinion of Josh as a person.

Agree also. Until the AM scandal I was willing to grant the possibility that Josh the adult was a different person than Josh the teenager. With the cheating, that is no longer the case. And now with this fake rehab, it's going to be just as ineffective as how his parents handled the molestations. He will go through the motions but nothing will be truly resolved.

ETA: While I am highly doubtful that Anna would leave, I would like to see her do it for her sake and her kids. Josh's issues are not going to get fixed and she deserves a better life than being saddled with such a troubled husband, keeping sweet and probably having more kids with him. Frankly if Josh decided to be honest with himself and decide that this is not the life for him, he would do Anna a favor by leaving himself which I see as a bigger possibility down the road.

And furthermore, I haven't said this yet but I will go on record to say that Pa Keller is an absolute jackass.

[samira_catlover]

********************

Sometime lurker, first time poster, so expect some serious formatting fails.

Jumping back on an earlier topic (good heavens, you guys are HARD to keep up with!): The so-called rehab center and its rules:

gawker.com/josh-duggar-s-sex-rehab-is-probably-just-another-chri-1726747380?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=thursdayAM

>>Negative remarks about food will not be tolerated. Prayer and fasting are a profitable substitute.<<

Kinda makes me wonder if their kitchen managers are Dna's Emily and Kelly Crawford....

[nastyhobbitses]

Agree also. Until the AM scandal I was willing to grant the possibility that Josh the adult was a different person than Josh the teenager. With the cheating, that is no longer the case. And now with this fake rehab, it's going to be just as ineffective as how his parents handled the molestations. He will go through the motions but nothing will be truly resolved.

ETA: While I am highly doubtful that Anna would leave, I would like to see her do it for her sake and her kids. Josh's issues are not going to get fixed and she deserves a better life than being saddled with such a troubled husband, keeping sweet and probably having more kids with him. Frankly if Josh decided to be honest with himself and decide that this is not the life for him, he would do Anna a favor by leaving himself which I see as a bigger possibility down the road.

And furthermore, I haven't said this yet but I will go on record to say that Pa Keller is an absolute jackass.

Yeah, I wasn't totally sold on Josh being a new man, but I was willing to be open to the idea that he had seen the error of his ways and would be a better man for Anna and his children. Now we know that he has learned nothing and will continue to hide behind his daddy's pleated chinos every time he gets caught with his pants down. His parents failed him a decade ago, and now he has failed himself and his family.

Also, it weirds me out so much how my feelings about Josh Duggar mirror the emotional journey I've had concerning my ex. No, he didn't molest kids or cheat, but he did sexually assault me and otherwise cross boundaries when we were together. Let's just say that there was a bit more than light, inappropriate touching, to use Duggar parlance. Actually, homeboy took a page right out of Josh Duggar's book and thought it was totally OK to feel me up and make out with me when I was sleeping. What a guy. After we broke up, I refused to even look at him, but after he got a new girlfriend, I heard from others that he'd really changed, he'd seen how much he had hurt me and was going to be a better man and treat his new girlfriend with the respect he never gave me. I was pissed that it took him that long, but I was happy that he'd learned something and would change for the better.

Years later, I found out from the girlfriend that he'd been doing the same stuff to her (she knew what he'd done to me when they first started dating). She wanted to leave him, but felt bad about leaving him because he had such a screwed-up home life and had issues reading social cues, which might explain his issues with consent on some level (still no excuse). I told her that she needed to be selfish for her own sake and leave him, but whatever decision she made, I'd respect. I wanted to break his neck after that conversation. It's hard for me to truly hate someone or see them as completely irredeemable, but by god my ex managed to become an object of my undying hatred. He never changed. He's still just as big an asshole as he was five years ago. His promises to change and be better were all empty. And Girlfriend #2 is still dating him. I've moved on with my life, since I consider success the best revenge, but even hearing his name makes my blood boil.

[EmmieJ]

And furthermore, I haven't said this yet but I will go on record to say that Pa Keller is an absolute jackass.

Agreed x 100.

[Tenyari]

We pretty much are reading that. :)

Oh God then that means there are a number of sequels on the way :shock:

[justmy2cents]

Joshley Madison's a Series of Unfortunate Events[/quote]

I know it's early but this is my vote for the next thread title!

[snickerz]

Oh God then that means there are a number of sequels on the way :shock:

I have absolutely no doubt that there will be sequels! I think he'll serve his time at Jesus Rehab, play his cards right for a year or two, but no longer than that. We haven't seen the last of the Duggar Sex Scandals. :popcorn2:

[TL;DR]

Oh God then that means there are a number of sequels on the way :shock:

And I firmly believe that.

[Lucky Canuck]

A few thoughts from a lurker who lurks:

1. The fundie philosophy on sin (Josh's type anyway) seems to be that it is a lack of discipline: Josh molests his sisters? Go renovate a house. Josh watches porn and cheats on his wife? Go work 55 hours a week. Hard work builds discipline which will reverse whatever failing you have ( sex, alcohol, rape victimry). I am guessing that after Josh first confessed his sin to his parents he was sentenced to more hard work around the TTC and the "businesses". The flip side of this is that those without those failings (hidden from public view) have superior discipline. i.e. JimBob

2. Did anyone else pick up the tone on the statement from JBob and J'chelle when they learned of Josh's porn/ affairs as being that they were the greatest victims in all this? Their grieved hearts. Similarly, the first thing out of their mouths to Megyn Kelly was how they felt as parents learning of Josh's behaviour. Their failing as parents. While that is a natural reaction, I am gob smacked that even years later they cannot even articulate for the cameras a desire for their daughter's well-being and a necessity for help for Josh.

3. Related to 2. This point has been made by many but I will burst if I cannot say this publicly: the lack of status JB grants to his daughters unless they enhance the Duggar brand ( Jill, Jessa) is appalling. Even when Megyn Kelly threw them a bone and asked them twice their reaction as parents of girls to the molestation (because they had not even alluded to it) it is like those thoughts had never formed in their heads. The victims of Josh were they, themselves. I would have thought that in a highly patriarchal lifestyle where the daughters are helpers and brides-in-waiting, the very least they could count on from their father was protectiveness. In word if not in deed. That is hard to stomach from this 50 something lifelong Christian feminist.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The Seewalds are Reformed, so this is a good example of how their theology differs from the Duggars. They believe God chooses specific people to be saved. These are the elect. You are saved no matter what. How do you know who is saved? Only by their fruits, because the elect are irresistibly drawn to God. Thus, if you are non repentant then you are a fake. The elect will sin but feel feel guilt and change. God uses the elect to do good in the world. The elect do not spend 2 years on Ashley Madison living a secret life, indulging in wickedness.

The Duggars believe everyone can be saved, you just have to ask god for forgiveness. Everyone gets as many chances as they need. You can repent on your deathbed. This is why the Kellers can never condemn Josh. He always has the potential to be the greatest christian ever. He is one prayer away from being the best husband and dad in the world.

So I am wondering how Ben, a definite Calvinist, and Jessa, whose theology is unknown, are talking about this.

[Hisey]

I don't believe adultery and porn are more heinous than molestation. However, and I am saying while I suffered molestation myself with all the consequences years later, I tend to be more indulgent with teens than with adults. It is not to say molestation perpetred by a teen should be forgotten without any punishment. But I am convinced recidivism can be prevented when a first-time offender is concerned, especially juvenile offender. After an offense, I am not interested in punishment for the sole punishment's sake, I am interested in justice. If the way the offense is dealt with leads to recidivism or other offense, justice has failed. Of course, Josh should be accountable for child molestation. But had he been accountable for it sooner, he would maybe had turned into someone more decent.

Therefore I do consider the adultery and porno as equally very serious matters for they show nothing serious has been done to prevent Josh for behaving with a total lack of respect of women. It was very irresponsible from his parents to sanitize the whole. A serious deal with it would have helped him a lot.

Thank you! At last.

It seems there is no way to say this without seeming to minimize molestation, which I would never do.

I hold Josh accountable for betraying his wife and little children. He acted as an adult, an adult with many choices. He is completely responsible for his choices. He committed adultery and destroyed the trust of his wife.

As a teen, however, I hold him far less accountable. He was a minor. There's a reason minors have fewer rights and privileges. He was completely in his parents control. He couldn't drive, yet, for goodness sake. He was trapped in that house all day. He couldn't vote or even legally leave the home. It's far less clear how "accountable" he is for those crimes. I can't try him as an adult when, quite possibly, the legal system wouldn't have viewed him as one. And I say that knowing his actions had very real consequences for the girls.

This whole site is dedicated to the terrible effects of fundyism on kids. When a kid (Josh) acts out as a result, however, there is universal condemnation of that child. I can't go there. He was still a minor. He deserved help, though he certainly should've been removed from the home, to go live with grandparents or something.

So my feeling is, he is completely accountable and responsible for his horrible treatment of Anna. Though I always found her insufferably smug, I feel terrible about the loss of her innocent world. Josh did that. However, I'm less clear on who's to blame for what he did as a minor. His overly sexed parents certainly bear some responsiblility.

[nastyhobbitses]

Thank you! At last.

It seems there is no way to say this without seeming to minimize molestation, which I would never do.

I hold Josh accountable for betraying his wife and little children. He acted as an adult, an adult with many choices. He is completely responsible for his choices. He committed adultery and destroyed the trust of his wife.

As a teen, however, I hold him far less accountable. He was a minor. There's a reason minors have fewer rights and privileges. He was completely in his parents control. He couldn't drive, yet, for goodness sake. He was trapped in that house all day. He couldn't vote or even legally leave the home. It's far less clear how "accountable" he is for those crimes. I can't try him as an adult when, quite possibly, the legal system wouldn't have viewed him as one. And I say that knowing his actions had very real consequences for the girls.

This whole site is dedicated to the terrible effects of fundyism on kids. When a kid (Josh) acts out as a result, however, there is universal condemnation of that child. I can't go there. He was still a minor. He deserved help, though he certainly should've been removed from the home, to go live with grandparents or something.

So my feeling is, he is completely accountable and responsible for his horrible treatment of Anna. Though I always found her insufferably smug, I feel terrible about the loss of her innocent world. Josh did that. However, I'm less clear on who's to blame for what he did as a minor. His overly sexed parents certainly bear some responsiblility.

I agree that he deserved help and his parents should take a good chunk of the blame for what happened when he was fourteen, but he was fourteen. At fourteen, you are definitely old enough to know that you should not touch your sisters in a sexual manner. You are definitely old enough to know what is inappropriate and what is not. If he were five or six and got caught playing doctor with his sisters or something, I'd chalk it up to childhood curiosity, but at fourteen, screwed-up home life or not, you should know better. I think there was still some hope for him had he gotten appropriate help, since while he was old enough to know better, he still was likely doing it as a way of acting out. What he did was inexcusable, but...understandable isn't exactly the right word here, but I know that he was a young teen crying out for help and did a heinous thing he shouldn't have done as part of that. He should have known better, and his parents should have done better.

[EmmieJ]

I also believe that the behaviors and choices Josh has made as an adult, married father of (now) 4, are entirely on him; whereas I see his initial predatory molestations against his own sisters less so.

If his pathetic-excuse-for-parents had responded aggressively and appropriately upon first learning of his molestation - had reported his acts to the proper authorities; had gotten him into real counseling; and had removed him from the home and his victims [for example, had him move in with his grandparents] - Josh would have had at least the opportunity to learn some ways of dealing with those desires and urges. [i happen to think his extremely repressive upbringing contributed to his normal sexual curiosity being turned into something sick and perverted.]

I in no way excuse him for the molestation of his sisters, but as a child, raised in an extremely oppressive, authoritarian environment where normal outlets were cut off for him, his parents bear a great deal of culpability for what happened, and even more culpability for what continued to happen after they were first informed. JimBob and Michele created this mess that is Josh.

However, Josh is now an adult and if he chooses to remain under his parents' thumb, that is 100% his choice. If he chooses to retain the veneer of some twisted version of "a Godly man," while at the same time being dissatisfied with his marriage, wanting to have affairs, that's 100% on him. I think eventually he'll break away because he cannot walk that very straight, narrow, ultimately dissatisfying way of life that his parents' dictated for him. He's not smart enough to hide his transgressions. And the ones that will suffer the most will be Anna and his children. (Although I hope that if he does break away from his parents and from Gothardism, that he would also seek some real counseling, come to terms with the way he was raised and the very real negative affects it had on his views toward sex, women, marriage, other people, and life in general, and then help his own children see that there are other ways to live life than under Gothard's rule.)