Nathan and Ashley Salyer - Courtship

[Palimpsest]

On 4/9/2016 at 6:44 PM, 19 cats and counting said:

I honestly thought I did make the effort on my own.  The original question I had was answered (in a not so friendly matter) with a different subject completely.  And enrollment numbers/when ATI peaked were not discussed comprehensively in previous threads as was abruptly pointed out to me.  

Only one member offended me, but she's (he) is higher up on this site and possibly a mod so a high enough opinion not to want to ask another question, which won't happen for awhile if again.

It was like asking a question about cats and getting an answer about trees. 

You are referring to me.  No, I am not a mod. Nor am I a "higher up." I apologized in advance for appearing testy.  It was not one of my better moments, I will admit.  We all make mistakes.

I was aware of you being very active in other threads where similar questions had been asked and answered by people familiar with IBLP and ATI.  I was confused as to why you were asking such a very similar question in this thread.  

You are not a new poster - in fact I think you are an experienced poster here who can actually help newer people find things.  I have no idea when people are posting from their phones, so I can't do much about that.

I really thought it was clear that I was just giving an example of putting in a link. I'm sorry you found it so irrelevant, but I used that thread because I like drawing the attention of newer posters, who may be unaware of the lawsuit to what is going on behind the facade of the TV show

To quote myself so everyone is clear about what was said.  I added bolding:

Quote

 

I'm sorry if I seem testy here but - that has already been done on so many other threads - including some threads where you have been a very active participant.  Rather than asking people to repeat themselves perhaps you could encourage people to read those other threads.

It is quite easy.  You may want to include a warning about potentially upsetting material sometimes.  For example:

Warning: Very difficult material in this thread but it does give a perspective of the evils of Gothardism over the years:  

[Then the link.]

 

I certainly apologize for being so abrupt with you - and I was testy and abrupt.  I usually try to be more helpful with questions from others.

I do wonder why you are making so much of this.  You and I have interacted very pleasantly before, I think.  

[iweartanktops]

"US American" isn't code for anything. It means you're an American from the United States. 

At least I think... 

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Yep and it is okay to say white person when describing Ashley and Marjorie's dads

So, HH- what flavor are you? I imagine you something crispy and BBQ'd flavored, but not a chip.

Those prawn chips that you get in Asian supermarkets--those are the bomb. I like to eat them with BBQ sauce, because I am an all-American weirdo.

 

[19 cats and counting]

24 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

You are referring to me.  No, I am not a mod. Nor am I a "higher up." I apologized in advance for appearing testy.  It was not one of my better moments, I will admit.  We all make mistakes.

I was aware of you being very active in other threads where similar questions had been asked and answered by people familiar with IBLP and ATI.  I was confused as to why you were asking such a very similar question in this thread.  

You are not a new poster - in fact I think you are an experienced poster here who can actually help newer people find things.  I have no idea when people are posting from their phones, so I can't do much about that.

I really thought it was clear that I was just giving an example of putting in a link. I'm sorry you found it so irrelevant, but I used that thread because I like drawing the attention of newer posters, who may be unaware of the lawsuit to what is going on behind the facade of the TV show

To quote myself so everyone is clear about what was said.  I added bolding:

I certainly apologize for being so abrupt with you - and I was testy and abrupt.  I usually try to be more helpful with questions from others.

I do wonder why you are making so much of this.  You and I have interacted very pleasantly before, I think.  

Apology accepted.  

[LawsonBatesEgo]

7 hours ago, Casserole said:

 

off topic, but Marjorie could seriously make good money on Etsy selling her calligraphy stuff. She may be a crazy fundie, but she's talented. 

Especially with her still probably having leg-humpers interested in what she does. 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Apology accepted.  

To answer your original question briefly:  Gothard was at the height of his popularity in the 1970s.  There were sexual and child abuse scandals in the 80s and 90s and membership began to decline.  Probably membership has dropped even further since Recovering Grace began to publish its accounts of long-term and institutionalized sexual abuse by Gothard himself and others and the degree to which they were covered up.  It appears to have been an open secret at IBLP headquarters. It is becoming very clear that the Board of Directors and many of those in staff positions were aware of the sexual abuse.  Gil Bates and Stephen Paine are on the Board of Directors.  The most recent allegation of sexual abuse, a police report was filed, was in 2012.

IBLP has been running at a significant loss for at least 5 years according to its form 990s. Only IBLP knows how big its membership/donor base is at the moment.  

ATI is the educational wing of IBLP and publishes a homeschooling curriculum.  We have no way of knowing how many people use the homeschooling curriculum because it is used beyond IBLP membership.   ATI materials (for example Character First) have been used in the public school system in some states.

More information here:  http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

And in QoS

 

[19 cats and counting]

Thanks.

I've got to make a file on things like this and a timeline does help.  Gil's a fairly recent addition to the BOD right?  Before he appeared on 17/18/19 Kids with his Little House dressed family he was fairly unknown right?  I also wonder why JB was not on the board.  Granted his family isn't as high standing in ATI considering the closest thing to marrying ATI royalty his family got was Jana's bridesmaid role in two royal weddings (Michael/Brandon and David/Prissy).  

No clue about Erin's FIL, his background or timeline, etc.  

I was honestly curious about Ashley's blog (and it's been picked up by WTF Fundie Families) and the timeline regarding the blog and ATI.  (I do take into account her age too because I definitely am glad my teenage writings are not online for the world to see).

[Palimpsest]

36 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Thanks.

I've got to make a file on things like this and a timeline does help.  Gil's a fairly recent addition to the BOD right?  Before he appeared on 17/18/19 Kids with his Little House dressed family he was fairly unknown right?  I also wonder why JB was not on the board.  Granted his family isn't as high standing in ATI considering the closest thing to marrying ATI royalty his family got was Jana's bridesmaid role in two royal weddings (Michael/Brandon and David/Prissy).  

No clue about Erin's FIL, his background or timeline, etc.  

I was honestly curious about Ashley's blog (and it's been picked up by WTF Fundie Families) and the timeline regarding the blog and ATI.  (I do take into account her age too because I definitely am glad my teenage writings are not online for the world to see).

You are going to hate me for this!  I think the best information on the board is the original thread on QOS proper about the lawsuit.  The research we did there is better than my memory.  There may be some stuff in earlier threads.

Or the Wayback Machine is an option with IBLP. They swiffer the IBLP website of all embarrassing material.

I think Gil Bates is a fairly new member - 2012? - but he certainly is involved in the coverup (and the lawsuit) up to his neck.  Gil Bates was unknown to the general public prior to TV.  He is obviously deeply embedded in IBLP otherwise he wouldn't be on the Board.  Stephen Paine has been on the board for ages.  He is a prison physician. Most of the Paine offspring have worked at headquarters - they have a blog with the details.

BTW, the BoD is now down to 4 members.  They are jumping ship with every new revelation.

Speculation is that Jim Bob isn't on the board and was never inner circle because he is a dolt and a dim bulb!

RE. Ashley.  I'd be more interested in when she went to JTTH.  It is a better indication of die-hard Gothardism/IBLP immersion.

ATI is too narrow a term really.

[19 dogs and counting]

On 4/8/2016 at 10:31 AM, BeccaGrim said:

  Erin denounced Goddard's group publicly...

Oh I missed this! I'm going to have to go back and sift through the posts.

[Kelsey]

I just watched the Big Apple episode. I think Nathan and Ashley look very comfortable together. If they are not engaged now, I can't imagine it being much longer. There were several times that they looked like they were thisclose to kissing. I will say that the Bates family has definitely figured out how to not look awkward while courting.

[Diana]

Im sorry, with US american i wanted to mean they arent latinos but i wasnt sure how to call them, i should have used Anglo-Saxon since they are english speakers and is the equivalent of latino, but i guess i just have this spanish way of thinking where we identify culture and language with nationality, and in the states is actually diferent and more complex, so i apologize if that was not the right word.

[eclairaupistache]

6 hours ago, HereticHick said:

"US American," as I am sure you know, is also not a "race" or "ethnicity."  It is a nationality. We Americans come in a wide  wonderful variety of colors and flavors. Always have, always will.

Yes I know that too, but the poster above me said so, so I picked it up. What I get from all of this is:

You can only do it wrong? You never call someone a race because you have to wait until they undentify as one? What about that Rachel Dolezal chick?

I get mistaken as straight all the time and every day. People assume I'm straigt because that's just an assumption of majority. Most people are straight, so people assume I'm straight. Which is ok! I just have to correct them. I am not hurt by it.

I am also part East Asian, but look completely white. Do I get hurt when people assume I'm white and not mixed? No.

I thought the same thing goes in America (but there is it obviously more complicated): There is less of a chance that a darker skinned person is white. So, in most of the cases (assumption of majority) that person is mixed, black. So people assume until you correct them which is only natural. You shouldn't be hurt by it.

So in America (yes I know it's actually the whole continent but I will call it America instead of USA, because a lot of people who are not from the US do so) you wait until the person "comes out" to you as a certain race? Until then you just be carefull not to point into a certain direction in the conversation? How stressful...

[calimojo]

Nathan and Ashley are cute together, but I think they are naive in thinking that she can give up the big apple.  She really seems to love New York and all if offers.  She might enjoy the south and the country for a long visit, but I think moving there will be hard for her.  Nathan could consider moving to NYC.  There are cowboys in NYC, in fact famously there is the naked cowboy who sings up and down Times square.  Perhaps Nathan could give that a try to earn some money,  He seems fairly fit!!

[Palimpsest]

On 4/8/2016 at 11:31 AM, BeccaGrim said:

So I could be wrong and please correct me if I am because I'm relatively new to watching the Bates family, 

<snip>

  Erin denounced Goddard's group publicly and Alyssa is dying her hair and wearing pants. Am  I wrong?

@formergothardite addressed this a couple of pages back, but here are a few more details.  

In my opinion this prevailing belief proves the Bates Family's PR machine is working.  They are trying to distance themselves from Gothard at all costs.  There is a lot of obfuscation and misdirection going on.

Here is the source for that belief, brought up many times  in the Bates Family general threads and discussed there in detail - also many times.  

http://starcasm.net/archives/342821

As the article says, Gothard is no longer involved with IBLP/ATI.  He resigned under pressure from the Board of of Directors - and is extremely resentful.  IBLP continues to follow his teachings.  

So whether Chad and Erin have truly denounced IBLP is debatable.  Gil Bates, Stephen Paine (Erin's FIL) and John Webster (Alyssa's FIL) are still very involved with IBLP.

Gothard himself,  IBLP, and the Board of Directors (collectively and individually) are being sued by 18 people.  There is a series of articles on the lawsuit here:  https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/01/13/bill-gothard-iblp-sex-abuse-lawsuit-update/

 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Gil's a fairly recent addition to the BOD right?  

Before he was on the BoD, he served as something else. So when Lawson claimed that his dad has only been on the Board for a short amount of time, he was technically not lying. But Gil had been something like an advisory to the board well before he got put on the board. And I think they actually were well known in IBLP before they made it onto the Duggar show. He wasn't in a high position, but I think he was moving htat way. 

[Palimpsest]

26 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Before he was on the BoD, he served as something else. So when Lawson claimed that his dad has only been on the Board for a short amount of time, he was technically not lying. But Gil had been something like an advisory to the board well before he got put on the board. And I think they actually were well known in IBLP before they made it onto the Duggar show. He wasn't in a high position, but I think he was moving htat way. 

@formergothardite  I think Gil Bates was on the advisory board of ATI, but I can't find proof.  Then he was promoted to the BoD of IBLP.

This is interesting - it is the full list of board members in 2014.   I'm putting it here in case I lose it again, but will copy to the other thread.

http://heresyintheheartland.blogspot.com/2014/02/who-is-institute-in-basic-life.html

So we are now down to 4 on the BoD: York, Paine, Bates, and Levendusky.  Levendusky is a new member as of 2014 (he's worked for IBLP since the 80s) and was appointed Interim President after they ousted Gothard.   These people are all really hard-core IBLP followers.

[VelociRapture]

5 hours ago, eclairaupistache said:

Yes I know that too, but the poster above me said so, so I picked it up. What I get from all of this is:

You can only do it wrong? You never call someone a race because you have to wait until they undentify as one? What about that Rachel Dolezal chick?

I get mistaken as straight all the time and every day. People assume I'm straigt because that's just an assumption of majority. Most people are straight, so people assume I'm straight. Which is ok! I just have to correct them. I am not hurt by it.

I am also part East Asian, but look completely white. Do I get hurt when people assume I'm white and not mixed? No.

I thought the same thing goes in America (but there is it obviously more complicated): There is less of a chance that a darker skinned person is white. So, in most of the cases (assumption of majority) that person is mixed, black. So people assume until you correct them which is only natural. You shouldn't be hurt by it.

So in America (yes I know it's actually the whole continent but I will call it America instead of USA, because a lot of people who are not from the US do so) you wait until the person "comes out" to you as a certain race? Until then you just be carefull not to point into a certain direction in the conversation? How stressful...

I think it's more complicated here due to our history of slavery and racism. For a long time, anyone with even the smallest bit of African ancestry was considered black - even if that person looked 100% white (an example can be seen in Mark Twain's fictional work, "Pudd'nhead Wilson"). That was a massive issue during the time of slavery and Jim Crow. The ideology was used to justify keeping people downtrodden and enslaved.

It's also been used in a positive manner here too. For instance, there are Native American tribes that decide membership based off documentation instead of blood quantum - the Cherokee nation, for example, grants membership to anyone who can prove they have an ancestor listed on the Dawes roll (a census taken in the 1800's of tribal members after the Trial of Tears.) That means even the whitest white person could be granted membership if they prove they have an ancestor listed - and the Cherokee chose this way of deciding membership because it has helped keep their culture alive and thriving. A lot of people don't like it, but I think it's fine. The tribes have a right to determine membership for themselves and I'm glad that these cultures are still alive today - many tribes were wiped out completely.

You have to remember that the U.S.A. is a huge country with tons of different cultures represented. You honestly have no way of knowing what someone's heritage or race is simply by looking at them - and there are people who would be offended if you got it wrong. 

Personally, I let people self-identify and tell me if they want to. I don't go around assuming things about others - whether it's race, religion, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc. - because it's rude and just doesn't matter much to me in the grand scheme of things.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I think Gil Bates was on the advisory board of ATI, but I can't find proof.

I really need to start bookmarking interesting info, but last year when I was searching to find more about the Bates I did stumble upon a discussion about his involvement as in the advisory board. I can't remember where it was, though. The impression I have gotten is that Gil, being a world class grifter, saw a good opportunity and has been worming his way up the IBLP ladder for some time. At one point Gothard paid for Erin to travel with him on a "mission trip" and I think that was before Gil was on the BoD. 

10 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Speculation is that Jim Bob isn't on the board and was never inner circle because he is a dolt and a dim bulb!

I disagree with this. Gothard picked people who he thought would be faithful to him and support him no matter what. A faithful, mindless dolt would be perfect because Gothard couldn't stand being questioned. I suspect the real reason Jim Bob wasn't picked was because Gothard realized Jim Bob loves himself a great deal and if it came down to it would choose his own best interests over Gothard. BUT, Gothard, perhaps because of his old age, fucked up big time in picking Gil and the rest of the recent folks. It ends up that they were loyal to the IBLP money, not Gothard. Gothard got conned. 

[19 cats and counting]

10 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

RE. Ashley.  I'd be more interested in when she went to JTTH.  It is a better indication of die-hard Gothardism/IBLP immersion.

 

She went in 2009.   My math could be wrong, but I think that makes her 14? when she went.  She posted a pic with her group and Priscilla was her leader.  She wrote about how much she loved Prissy.  

[Palimpsest]

42 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

She went in 2009.   My math could be wrong, but I think that makes her 14? when she went.  She posted a pic with her group and Priscilla was her leader.  She wrote about how much she loved Prissy.  

Thanks.  I'm sure Priscilla is lovable and sweet, as well as steeped in Gothardism.  There are usually a couple of leaders.  @formergothardite can speak more to that, probably.

[mstee]

On April 6, 2016 at 9:30 PM, freethemall said:

Let me Google that for you: http://feminineatheart.blogspot.com/

So many spelling errors for a 16 year old. I know not everyone is gifted in the spelling department, but that's a hard blog to read. 

[sawasdee]

23 minutes ago, mstee said:

So many spelling errors for a 16 year old. I know not everyone is gifted in the spelling department, but that's a hard blog to read. 

Am I the only bitchy old bird who finds MOST blogs hard to read because of spelling errors, poor or non existent grammar, and lack of punctuation?

In MY day.........

 

[mstee]

5 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

Am I the only bitchy old bird who finds MOST blogs hard to read because of spelling errors, poor or non existent grammar, and lack of punctuation?

In MY day.........

 

You're definitely not alone. I found this blog to be extra awful with spelling. But I almost hate excessive exclamation marks more than spelling errors. That drives me nuts. 

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I really need to start bookmarking interesting info, but last year when I was searching to find more about the Bates I did stumble upon a discussion about his involvement as in the advisory board. I can't remember where it was, though. The impression I have gotten is that Gil, being a world class grifter, saw a good opportunity and has been worming his way up the IBLP ladder for some time. At one point Gothard paid for Erin to travel with him on a "mission trip" and I think that was before Gil was on the BoD. 

I disagree with this. Gothard picked people who he thought would be faithful to him and support him no matter what. A faithful, mindless dolt would be perfect because Gothard couldn't stand being questioned. I suspect the real reason Jim Bob wasn't picked was because Gothard realized Jim Bob loves himself a great deal and if it came down to it would choose his own best interests over Gothard. BUT, Gothard, perhaps because of his old age, fucked up big time in picking Gil and the rest of the recent folks. It ends up that they were loyal to the IBLP money, not Gothard. Gothard got conned. 

I don't disagree about Jim Bob Duggar.  I also think that JB is regarded as a lightweight because he won political office, did nothing much for a single term as state rep, and was handily defeated in the next election.  A dim wit with an enormous ego.

I think Gil Bates wormed his way into the IBLP hierarchy, too - possibly by pretending to be a mindless dolt and a yes man.  When you look at the way this played out over time - the only board members left are the younger generation of IBLP true believers.  I don't think Gil Bates was pressured by other members of the board.  I think he got on the board because Paine pushed for him and it was an alliance of York, Paine and Bates who ousted Gothard - and continue the cover-up.  York and Paine are steeped in IBLP and have been on the board for years.

The outsiders - the independent MD (Boring), Insurance Commissioner (Hudgens), college professor (Stancil), law professor (Reese) and token minority (Burris) have all left the board.  This could be because they objected to the way the investigation was handled and wanted to throw Gothard to the dogs.  Or it could be because they wanted to keep Gothard as president.

It is pretty much a takeover of IBLP by York, Paine, and Bates with everyone who disagreed with them gone.  The board went from 8 members + Gothard to 3 members +Levendusky as interim president.

It looks fishy as hell.

[ven]

Will there be a levendusky-bates wedding in the works?