CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[happy atheist]

I think it's sad that having an opinion that is contrary to yours makes me a bad nurse in your mind.

What makes you a bad nurse in my mind is your apparent lack of understanding about how vaccinations and herd immunity work.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Must be true then

We all know no one is allowed to post anything on facebook that isnt true.

[formergothardite]

It was on FB

I think this is one of the places you are being completely honest and not evasive. You read it on a FB debate and then copied it without bothering to give the proper credit. I do think that you probably agreed with it because if you didn't you would have said so by now. I also believe that you are not going to share what you really believe about abortion regulations because you have realized that you have backed yourself into a corner and can't defend your stance if you go with honesty. You have already said that people should have the right to choose when it comes to medical procedures, so it would be hard for you to start defending the idea that it is okay for the government to tell a woman what she can and can't do when it comes to making a medical decision.

I don't think you are a troll or a past member, I think you are an average Ezzo supporter(again you have refused time after time to say Ezzo's advice is bad and shouldn't be followed) who is anti-choice and anti-vax.

ETA: I left out some words.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

What makes you a bad nurse in my mind is your apparent lack of understanding about how vaccinations and herd immunity work.

That's where I stand, too. And if you don't understand fairly basic pieces of medical knowledge like that, how can I trust you to have an understanding of more complex medical issues? How can I trust you to do a good job if I can't even trust you to have a basic understanding of the immune system?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think this is one of the places you are being completely honest and not evasive. You read it on a FB debate and then copied it without bothering to give the proper credit. I do think that you probably agreed with it because if you didn't you would have said so by now. I also believe that you are not going to share what you really believe about abortion regulations because you have realized that you have backed yourself into a corner and can't defend your stance if you go with honesty. You have already said that people should have the right to choose when it comes to medical procedures, so it would be hard for you to start defending the idea that it is okay for the government to tell a woman what she can and can't do when it comes to making a medical decision.

I don't think you are a troll or a past member, I think you are an average Ezzo supporter(again you have refused time after time to say Ezzo's advice is bad and shouldn't be followed) who is anti-choice.

I agree with you that I don't think she's a troll of any kind. I think she's ignorant and her views are dangerous. But I don't think she's a troll. I see her types of arguments all the time from anti-vaxxers.

[Snarkylark]

What makes you a bad nurse in my mind is your apparent lack of understanding about how vaccinations and herd immunity work.

I understand how vaccines and herd immunity work. There is a whole group of nurses and others that feel the same way I do about mandatory vaccinations. Namv.org. Their site may be under construction right now so I'm not sure if it's still up.

I never said we shouldn't vaccinate. I never said herd immunity doesn't work. But that doesn't change my opinion that they shouldn't be mandatory. I also stated that it would be silly not to vaccinate against some diseases like polio. But I don't think the government should be able to decide that we need a flu shot every year or that babies born to healthy mothers always need the Hep B vaccine. I'm sorry some of you can't seem to get that distinction.

[Snarkylark]

Must be true then

I'm just saying that's where the comment was. When I copied it the author's name was included but didn't transfer over when I pasted it. Whoever she is I'm sure she wouldn't want a ton of people stalking her page! Lol

[FundieFarmer]

So if you're a nurse working in the medical field, what is your organization's stance on vaccinations? Mine is staunchly pro-vaxx, and I haven't met anyone within our system who doesn't support that. How do your views align with that?

[Snarkylark]

I think this is one of the places you are being completely honest and not evasive. You read it on a FB debate and then copied it without bothering to give the proper credit. I do think that you probably agreed with it because if you didn't you would have said so by now. I also believe that you are not going to share what you really believe about abortion regulations because you have realized that you have backed yourself into a corner and can't defend your stance if you go with honesty. You have already said that people should have the right to choose when it comes to medical procedures, so it would be hard for you to start defending the idea that it is okay for the government to tell a woman what she can and can't do when it comes to making a medical decision.

I don't think you are a troll or a past member, I think you are an average Ezzo supporter(again you have refused time after time to say Ezzo's advice is bad and shouldn't be followed) who is anti-choice and anti-vax.

ETA: I left out some words.

I am opposed to abortion on moral grounds. And while I understand that not everyone shares the same values I believe that it is murder. I can't be sorry for feeling that way. I'm against abortion as a means of birth control because I believe that a fetus is more than a mass of cells. It is completely not the same as a tonsillectomy. And science has proven the same. The fetus has a heart beat before 5 weeks old, usually before a woman knows she is pregnant. I consider something with a heart beat a living thing. If the mother's life is at risk then it's a different situation then an abortion for convenience. Most of the time there are ways to prevent pregnancy. Rape and incest are a different story.

That being said, I understand that I can't impose MY values or religious beliefs onto everyone else.

[Snarkylark]

So if you're a nurse working in the medical field, what is your organization's stance on vaccinations? Mine is staunchly pro-vaxx, and I haven't met anyone within our system who doesn't support that. How do your views align with that?

I addressed this earlier. I had to get the flu shot or lose my job.

Did you know that CMS is tying reimbursement to hospital employee vaccination rates? So we have been sold out by our employers to get a vaccine that last year was 23% effective so they can get all their Medicare reimbursements.

[Snarkylark]

I am opposed to abortion on moral grounds. And while I understand that not everyone shares the same values I believe that it is murder. I can't be sorry for feeling that way. I'm against abortion as a means of birth control because I believe that a fetus is more than a mass of cells. It is completely not the same as a tonsillectomy. And science has proven the same. The fetus has a heart beat before 5 weeks old, usually before a woman knows she is pregnant. I consider something with a heart beat a living thing. If the mother's life is at risk then it's a different situation then an abortion for convenience. Most of the time there are ways to prevent pregnancy. Rape and incest are a different story.

That being said, I understand that I can't impose MY values or religious beliefs onto everyone else.

I did say that some of Ezzo's advice was bad advice but that doesn't mean you have to throw out everything he ever said.

[halcionne]

I'm still on page one of this thread, so I'm sure several posters have beat me to this.

You are an idiot. (Yes, I meant that. No, I don't care if you call me mean, a bitch, or any of several other names).

I just felt like replying to this post from page seven because it refers to comments from page one so it can be seen again on page ten. :dance:

[Boogalou]

Well, I'm going to have an unpopular opinion! I think that everyone should get their vaccinated if they are medically able to do so. I think the government should encourage people to vaccinate but I do not think they should force people to vaccinate. I don't think it works out well when the government starts legislating people get certain medical procedures. Apparently I disagree with the supreme court on this.

I also do not think that public schools should be putting conditions on who can or cannot enter or else it's not really a public school. I realize there are other options but those are not realistic for a lot of people so while this might not technically be forcing people into vaccination it essentially is.

Finally, I think this is being done more for show than anything. How difficult is it going to be to find a doctor who is willing to say you are not vaccinating for medical reasons? Not very, I'm sure. People who are motivated to not vaccinate aren't going to and they will find a way around it. In the meantime everyone's time and money will be wasted to process requests and doctors notes.

So, to sum up: I think everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated I just don't think the government should force people to.

[Hane]

For those of us who were children when contracting polio was a reality, you are insane not to vaccinate your child against polio.

I've known people whose bodies were ravaged by childhood polio and even those who were infected but managed to escape its worst ravages are dealing with post-polio syndrome as adults.

Polio has been eradicated in most parts of the world, but all it takes is one infected person on an international flight returning to the US and the entire cycle can begin anew. It is simply a risk that no sane person would take.

Preach. When I was little, before the Salk vaccine came out, neighborhood kids whose mothers were nurses wouldn't let them swim in other people's backyard pools or go to the beach, for fear of being exposed to polio. A friend's daughter contracted a virulent strain and was dead in 48 hours. My mom was pregnant during the rubella epidemic of 1964-5, and was terrified when my younger sister caught German measles.

Damn few of us senior citizens are anti-vaxers.

[FundieFarmer]

I addressed this earlier. I had to get the flu shot or lose my job.

Did you know that CMS is tying reimbursement to hospital employee vaccination rates? So we have been sold out by our employers to get a vaccine that last year was 23% effective so they can get all their Medicare reimbursements.

Well, yeah, and that's a perfect example of how vaccines work: they protected you should you be exposed to somebody, and they'll protect your patients from the chance you might expose them.

I meant more on a fundamental level. Have you run into anyone who shares your own views there? Sure, you had to get the flu shot or lose your job, but how does that translate into interactions with patients? I know you said you wouldn't push it on them and that you'd give them vaccines, but how does that work for you morally?

And, the flu-shot was ineffective because it didn't address the most potent strains of influenza last season- not because the vaccine itself was weak. More people caught the other strains because they couldn't be vaccinated because the vaccine didn't exist. That's like giving somebody the HPV vaccine and freaking out because they got one of the strains it doesn't cover.

Also, just a cautionary note, and I really say this to be helpful: If your org is pro-vax, I would suggest not posting your beliefs anywhere online using your real name, especially somewhere that people can connect you to your workplace. We get a surprising number of people tattling on what our employees have said online, and we would have to follow up on something like this.

[Mama Mia]

This seems to be an issue , like a few others, where people tend to be very, very extremist in their views. In one direction or the other. There have to be other people like me who are kind of in the middle? Right?

I'm pro- required vaccination for some diseases. I'm pro optional vaccination for many others. I am definitely pro-medical exemption. I am pro allowing for single vaccinations / drawn out vaccination schedules. And very strongly feel that if vaccines are required - that the government/ insurance companies/ manufacturers should be required to make those required vaccines single dose without additional cost to the patient.

I don't think that's unreasonable. If you are going to send your child out to a public place they should be required to have vaccines for the diseases that are most likely to cause permanent disability/ death if contracted or spread.

But I do worry about being forced to give vaccines for diseases that are relatively difficult to contract, that have relatively low morbidity / mortality rates and/ or are brand new. I think it's foolish to act like severe, life altering- destroying reactions to medical procedures ( including vaccinations ) are so rare that they should be completely brushed aside. And I'm not talking about autism. And the fact that you can't always prove a direct link betwen medical intervention and a negative side effect doesn't mean anything -- look at all the medications and food additives and pesticides, that are pushed as safe that end up being pulled because, eventually, the companies have to acknowledge the risks and damage. Maybe it's because I have permanent disabilities from a medical procedure that Doctors like to say is safe ( despite tens of thousands of patients vehemently disagreeing! ) . But I'm not going to just blindly assume that everything put out by a pharmaceutical company is completely benign.

But the diseases that can wipe out communities and cause high rates of permanent damage just by being coughed on -- definitely require immunization so for those.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Well, I'm going to have an unpopular opinion! I think that everyone should get their vaccinated if they are medically able to do so. I think the government should encourage people to vaccinate but I do not think they should force people to vaccinate. I don't think it works out well when the government starts legislating people get certain medical procedures. Apparently I disagree with the supreme court on this.

I also do not think that public schools should be putting conditions on who can or cannot enter or else it's not really a public school. I realize there are other options but those are not realistic for a lot of people so while this might not technically be forcing people into vaccination it essentially is.

Finally, I think this is being done more for show than anything. How difficult is it going to be to find a doctor who is willing to say you are not vaccinating for medical reasons? Not very, I'm sure. People who are motivated to not vaccinate aren't going to and they will find a way around it. In the meantime everyone's time and money will be wasted to process requests and doctors notes.

So, to sum up: I think everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated I just don't think the government should force people to.

They're not FORCING you to get vaccinated. They're saying if you want to send your child to PUBLIC schools, you need to be vaccinated unless you have a medical exemption. You have the choice of not sending your child to a public school. But, if you want to send your kids to a public institution, you have to adhere to the rules of the state.

[Alexa]

I live in California, all my kids are fully vaccinated, but mandating vaccines makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's a slippery slope once the government starts mandating what you put in your child's body, what's next. Every one is entitled to their opinions, this is mine and I respect those who disagree with me and I know this is a very hot topic.

Also, I am curious how California which is a huge tourist destination, is going to ensure all tourists are fully vaccinated before entering California and hitting up popular tourist spots like Disneyland. The recent Measles outbreak was linked to an Asiatic strain from the Philippines. Yes, making sure all public school kids are vaccinated helps herd immunity, but this is California, there are going to be those who don't have the vaccines/not up to date rolling around.

[Snarkylark]

Well, yeah, and that's a perfect example of how vaccines work: they protected you should you be exposed to somebody, and they'll protect your patients from the chance you might expose them.

I meant more on a fundamental level. Have you run into anyone who shares your own views there? Sure, you had to get the flu shot or lose your job, but how does that translate into interactions with patients? I know you said you wouldn't push it on them and that you'd give them vaccines, but how does that work for you morally?

And, the flu-shot was ineffective because it didn't address the most potent strains of influenza last season- not because the vaccine itself was weak. More people caught the other strains because they couldn't be vaccinated because the vaccine didn't exist. That's like giving somebody the HPV vaccine and freaking out because they got one of the strains it doesn't cover.

Also, just a cautionary note, and I really say this to be helpful: If your org is pro-vax, I would suggest not posting your beliefs anywhere online using your real name, especially somewhere that people can connect you to your workplace. We get a surprising number of people tattling on what our employees have said online, and we would have to follow up on something like this.

Yes, there are definitely nurses who share my concerns. I've linked about to a site dedicated to it. As for how I treat my patients...I am obligated to offer the flu vaccine from Sept through April. I offer it to all my patients. If they have questions I answer them and give them the vaccine information sheet. I also am obligated to tell them like last year if the vaccine is not effective. It's their choice on whether they want it or not. I don't try to persuade them either way. I don't have a moral problem with that because I'm not forcing it.

And I'm well aware of the repercussions of saying something online. I don't believe my employer can fire me for having an opinion as it doesn't affect my job. If I don't mention my employer by name or say negative things about them then I really don't think there's anything they can do.

[Boogalou]

They're not FORCING you to get vaccinated. They're saying if you want to send your child to PUBLIC schools, you need to be vaccinated unless you have a medical exemption. You have the choice of not sending your child to a public school. But, if you want to send your kids to a public institution, you have to adhere to the rules of the state.

Sorry, they are not forcing but they may as well be. You have to educate your children and for many people the only affordable way to do that is through public schools. So now the poor are disproportionately affected and the rich can pay their way out.

[FundieFarmer]

Yes, there are definitely nurses who share my concerns. I've linked about to a site dedicated to it. As for how I treat my patients...I am obligated to offer the flu vaccine from Sept through April. I offer it to all my patients. If they have questions I answer them and give them the vaccine information sheet. I also am obligated to tell them like last year if the vaccine is not effective. It's their choice on whether they want it or not. I don't try to persuade them either way. I don't have a moral problem with that because I'm not forcing it.

And I'm well aware of the repercussions of saying something online. I don't believe my employer can fire me for having an opinion as it doesn't affect my job. If I don't mention my employer by name or say negative things about them then I really don't think there's anything they can do.

Gotcha.

As far as saying things online, I'm not saying you don't know! I was thinking of sites like Facebook, where you may have your job listed. And while they can't fire you for an opinion (as opposed to other things I've seen! :lol: ) unless it's in their social media policy, if you're with a large org they'll probably interview you and definitely watch you more closely. Again, I'm not saying you don't know. I'm just offering that having been on the side that has to deal with everything that comes in. It surprises me what people think is appropriate to turn in, and whether I agree with you or not, I don't want that to happen to you.

[Snarkylark]

Gotcha.

As far as saying things online, I'm not saying you don't know! I was thinking of sites like Facebook, where you may have your job listed. And while they can't fire you for an opinion (as opposed to other things I've seen! :lol: ) unless it's in their social media policy, if you're with a large org they'll probably interview you and definitely watch you more closely. Again, I'm not saying you don't know. I'm just offering that having been on the side that has to deal with everything that comes in. It surprises me what people think is appropriate to turn in, and whether I agree with you or not, I don't want that to happen to you.

Thank you. Believe me, I choose my words carefully, esp on social media

[Evangeline]

I understand how vaccines and herd immunity work.

No, you don't. You said this earlier in the thread: "If vaccines work, why are you worried about catching anything from the unvaxxed?

Did anyone die in the measles outbreak? Was anyone irreparably harmed? Didn't think so and in fact those people now have LIFE LONG immunity to measles. Did you know that the live measles virus is shed after vaccination, making VACCINATED kids more at risk of spreading the virus than an unvaccinated one?"

This proves you do not understand how vaccines and herd immunity work.

[Snarkylark]

No, you don't. You said this earlier in the thread: "If vaccines work, why are you worried about catching anything from the unvaxxed?

Did anyone die in the measles outbreak? Was anyone irreparably harmed? Didn't think so and in fact those people now have LIFE LONG immunity to measles. Did you know that the live measles virus is shed after vaccination, making VACCINATED kids more at risk of spreading the virus than an unvaccinated one?"

This proves you do not understand how vaccines and herd immunity work.

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

[Evangeline]

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

:angry-banghead:

Again, HERD IMMUNITY. Me being vaxxed does not protect me from a disease unless most people around me are also vaxxed. It's not as simple as the person who gets the shot is immune and the person who doesn't is not immune. Nobody is completely immune to anything. MOST people are MOSTLY immune when vax rates are high. I forget the actual percentage, but let's say it's 90%. If 90% of people are immune to a disease, then it's almost as good as 100% because the disease can't get a foothold. If the number drops below the 90%, then nobody is as immune because the disease can spread. I'm not a science-y person and may not be explaining this as well as someone else could, but at least I understand the concept. If you don't, and you've proven you don't, you have absolutely no business counseling patients on whether to get the flu shot. It is NOT TRUE that the flu shot is ineffective. It's very effective at lowering flu rates for the strains that it includes. And that's all it claims to do.