CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[FakePigtails]

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

Never mind me, how about the infants too young to be vaccinated, or the kids with cancer or people of any age with compromised immune systems? They're why so many of us find it messed up to pretend these diseases are no big deal. For me and you, maybe. For plenty of other people, those diseases can easily be deadly.

. . . and you wonder why people scoffed at you being a nurse.

[formergothardite]

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

You have already admitted on this very thread that you understand vaccines are not 100% effective. Why are you asking this question. If you truly understood how vaccines and herd immunity worked you wouldn't.

Example:

Child A is vaxed. He goes to church with child B who is not vaxed. Child B's mother does not recognize the symptoms of whooping cough and brings him to a church event sick. Child B exposes 45 children to whooping cough. Most are vaxed, some are not. Most of the unvaxed ones catch it and so do a couple of the vaxed ones, including child A. Child A then gives it to his baby sister who ends up in the hospital. Child A has a mild version of whooping cough but still spends months coughing.

~loosely based on a true story. I changed some things but the basics of it are the same an unvaxed child unknowingly spread whooping cough to a group of children.

[FundieFarmer]

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

Not all vaccines are 100% after the first try. They can fail if patients don't develop an immune response even after several attempts. The numbers are something like 5% failure rate for MMR after one dose, and 1% after a second dose. Additionally, some vaccines may decrease potency over time in certain individuals, who will need booster shots even into adulthood. Those percentages are appear to be very low, but translated into a population count become much more alarming.

Let's just say that the failure rate for MMR is consistent across all vaccines, which I propose because those are low percentages and should the failure rates be higher, the situation would be even more dire. That number is in excess of 16 million US citizens if you include the immunocompromised and those for whom vaccines are not an option. That's more than the entire population of Guatemala! Comparatively, the Anti-Vaccine Body Count quotes 9,020 deaths and 149,957 illnesses (and 0 cases of attributed autism) from 2007-now that were claimed to be caused by vaccines.

The 1-5% of individuals for whom vaccines do not work are the ones who need herd immunity from the other 95%. 16+ million is a lot of lives to put at risk for the comparatively small amount who claim to have had negative reactions to vaccinations.

[IronicallyMaeve]

I realized after this exploded that perhaps my title wasn't the best...It's not mandatory vaccination, it's just repealing personal and religious exemptions.

I am pretty much fully vaccinated. I know I'm missing varicella, but I'll ask my doctor about that. I'm not worried about catching most things I'm vaccinated against. Even if I do catch measles or pertussis, I'll probably be fine. I'm healthy, young, and I have access to good medical care.

I worry about kids and adults who, for medical reasons, CANNOT be vaccinated. For immunocompromised individuals, catching many of these "minor" diseases could be deadly. I vaccinate for them. Also I don't like being sick myself, so I vaccinate so I'll be less likely to get sick.

[formergothardite]

Snarkylark, maybe this story will help you understand better how not vaccinating can impact an entire community.

thescientificparent.org/learning-the-hard-way-my-journey-from-antivaxx-to-science/

All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated.

when the kids started with a dry cough a few days later I didn’t think much of it. But a week after the symptoms started the kids weren’t improving, in fact they were getting worse.

our family was one step from contracting measles in our mostly under-or-unvaccinated 7 kids. Maybe we could have weathered that storm unscathed in personal quarantine. But in the 4 highly contagious days before any symptoms show we easily could have passed on our infection to my sister’s toddlers or her 34-week-old son in the NICU.

[momof2treasures]

Every nursing job I've ever had required the flu vaccine. You have the option of not getting it and wearing a mask every day to work during flu season. You also have to get a TB skin test every year to check for exposure to TB. No one ever seems to be up in arms over that one. It's part of the job and protects the weakest and sickest patients from disease. Nursing is full of hazards . This seems like the least of them to me. Have you ever had a needle stick injury or a violent patient?

[DowntownAbbey]

I work one short shift and this is what it feels like to come back here:

ETA: Spoiler tags and gifs are a pain on mobile. Also riffles and a thank you to Happy Atheist.

[Sundaymorning]

I think it's hilarious and outrageous that people do accept umpteen unnecessary and even harmful governmental interventions, but when it comes to this matter, suddenly lots of people are up in arms against this actually sensible measure.

As others have stated before, a child is not the property of the parents. If the parents fail so immensely to act in the best interests of a child, who can't yet decide for themself, someone else, in this case the lawmakers, has to step in.

And if you are an adult who doesn't want to get vaccinated, by all means, don't. But get yourself onto a private property, which you own yourself, or the owner is ok with you being there, and stay there. Seriously, people who are refusing to get vaccinated even though they could (I'm not talking about those who really can't because of health issues), shouldn't endanger others in public spaces or public transportation.

Also, some doctors already ban voluntarily unvaxxed people from their offices, and they are 100% right.

[happy atheist]

I live in California, all my kids are fully vaccinated, but mandating vaccines makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's a slippery slope once the government starts mandating what you put in your child's body, what's next. Every one is entitled to their opinions, this is mine and I respect those who disagree with me and I know this is a very hot topic.

Also, I am curious how California which is a huge tourist destination, is going to ensure all tourists are fully vaccinated before entering California and hitting up popular tourist spots like Disneyland. The recent Measles outbreak was linked to an Asiatic strain from the Philippines. Yes, making sure all public school kids are vaccinated helps herd immunity, but this is California, there are going to be those who don't have the vaccines/not up to date rolling around.

So how's that whole slippery slope thing going in Mississippi and West Virginia? I don't recall hearing about mandatory anal probing or rhinoplasty or anything.

And as far as tourists go, you do understand that if more Californians (and Americans) were vaccinated, the disease would not have spread the way it did. I mean, the Disneyland thing pretty much refutes the whole "skipping vaccinations is not biggie" argument. Someone came in with a disease that people weren't adequately vaccinated against, and the disease spread. It's like it's science or something.

So now imagine that your baby's daycare is Disneyland and the measles-carrying sibling of some other baby is the tourist from the Philippines. Sibling comes in with Mom to pick up baby, spreads measles to all the too-young-to-be-vaccinated babies. Bad things happen.

And scene.

[SassyPants]

We were at Disney during the outbreak last Dec. We were a large group with a baby too young to have received the vaccines and some elderly folks as well. My GD, the baby, and her family live in So America...they hopped on a plane a couple days after the exposure, which was unknown to any of us at the time. The family took 4 flights and were laid over in Central America for a day d/t weather related issues. LOTS of people were exposed and the potential for illness, quite high.

[apple1]

I beg to differ. If you are vaccinated then how is Jimmy going to get you sick?

You really are not that bright. You truly do not understand vaccination.

You are behaving exactly the same way on this thread as on the Ezzo thread.

FTR, bad information and falsehoods remain bad information and falsehoods no matter how many times you repeat them.

ETA: And all opinions are not created equal.

[Snarkylark]

Every nursing job I've ever had required the flu vaccine. You have the option of not getting it and wearing a mask every day to work during flu season. You also have to get a TB skin test every year to check for exposure to TB. No one ever seems to be up in arms over that one. It's part of the job and protects the weakest and sickest patients from disease. Nursing is full of hazards . This seems like the least of them to me. Have you ever had a needle stick injury or a violent patient?

We don't have the mask option. We also don't have to get yearly TB tests. I've never had a needle stick but have had a violent patient when I worked on the floor. Why does that matter?

[Snarkylark]

I realized after this exploded that perhaps my title wasn't the best...It's not mandatory vaccination, it's just repealing personal and religious exemptions.

I am pretty much fully vaccinated. I know I'm missing varicella, but I'll ask my doctor about that. I'm not worried about catching most things I'm vaccinated against. Even if I do catch measles or pertussis, I'll probably be fine. I'm healthy, young, and I have access to good medical care.

I worry about kids and adults who, for medical reasons, CANNOT be vaccinated. For immunocompromised individuals, catching many of these "minor" diseases could be deadly. I vaccinate for them. Also I don't like being sick myself, so I vaccinate so I'll be less likely to get sick.

Yup, I understand that and obviously am concerned about that too as anyone would be. But I still have an issue with mandatory vaccination.

Even in fully vaccinated communities outbreaks occur. And if you are exposed to someone from ?anywhere that has the contagion and you get sick, the vaccine didn't work. Everyone around you could be fully vaccinated and the sick person could have traveled from a country where they aren't vaccinated or the vaccine possibly didn't work for them either. If you get sick, it didn't work.

[Snarkylark]

calivaxchoice.com/debunking-herd-immunity/

[Boogalou]

calivaxchoice.com/debunking-herd-immunity/

That site seems legit:

The “herd immunity theory†claims that 90% of the population MUST be immunized to ensure protective immunity for the entire herd.

As proof that is wrong they say (among other things)

The czech republic has had a two dose MMR vaccination programme since 1987. The last outbreak of mumps was reported in 2002, but an increase in the number of mumps cases was observed in 2005, starting in October that year. In an 18 month period examined, 5,998 cases of mumps were notified, with a peak incidence in May of 2006. The highest incidence rate was observed in those in the age group of 15 to 19 years, in which 87% of the cases had received two doses of mumps vaccine

Now I'm no degreed math professional but the last time I checked 87 was less than 90. If that doesn't support their herd immunity is bull shit argument I call into question the validity of their other arguments.

Look, I agree with your basic premise, the government should not make people get vaccines, but your questionable science isn't really doing yourself any favors here.

[SpeakNow]

Yes. As a nurse you should know that even people who may not be able to walk or talk etc still have feelings and emotions. The fact that you imply they aren't sentient beings is actually sickening to me.

[Snarkylark]

Yes. As a nurse you should know that even people who may not be able to walk or talk etc still have feelings and emotions. The fact that you imply they aren't sentient beings is actually sickening to me.

I didn't imply that. I was asking if that was what the other poster was saying. And there are people who can't talk or have emotions or feelings and I was asking the poster if she thought it was ok to kill them in that instance. Speaking for myself, I don't think it is. Any of us could end up in that situation after a bad accident. The poster said that it was ok to kill to terminate a fetus because it's not conscious enough to know it's being terminated. I was asking if she felt the same way about people who are not conscious enough to know that they are being terminated as well. How is a late term abortion different than killing a baby the second or minutes after it's born?

[Snarkylark]

That site seems legit:

As proof that is wrong they say (among other things)

Now I'm no degreed math professional but the last time I checked 87 was less than 90. If that doesn't support their herd immunity is bull shit argument I call into question the validity of their other arguments.

Look, I agree with your basic premise, the government should not make people get vaccines, but your questionable science isn't really doing yourself any favors here.

There are many examples there of the rate being over 90% and the vaccines not offering protection.

[Snarkylark]

The highest incidence rate was in those aged 15-19 years old, of which 87% were vaccinated. It doesn't say which age group or vaccination status had the lowest rates. I think they're trying to say that 87% is pretty high but yet that age group had the most cases.

[SpeakNow]

I live in California, all my kids are fully vaccinated, but mandating vaccines makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's a slippery slope once the government starts mandating what you put in your child's body, what's next. Every one is entitled to their opinions, this is mine and I respect those who disagree with me and I know this is a very hot topic.

Also, I am curious how California which is a huge tourist destination, is going to ensure all tourists are fully vaccinated before entering California and hitting up popular tourist spots like Disneyland. The recent Measles outbreak was linked to an Asiatic strain from the Philippines. Yes, making sure all public school kids are vaccinated helps herd immunity, but this is California, there are going to be those who don't have the vaccines/not up to date rolling around.

This isn't about tourists at all. This is about mandatory vaccines for children that want to enter public school. No one is forcing people entering the state to get vaccines, just children entering the public schools.

[lawfulevil]

It's 8:30 pm here and I had a third glass of wine at dinner (it's my niece's birthday) and am way too drunk to explain science to lunatics right now. But give that a squint and see if you can come up with some theories about why that was a common age group to get mumps.

[Snarkylark]

All I see is the ace of spades. Lol

[Alexa]

So how's that whole slippery slope thing going in Mississippi and West Virginia? I don't recall hearing about mandatory anal probing or rhinoplasty or anything.

And as far as tourists go, you do understand that if more Californians (and Americans) were vaccinated, the disease would not have spread the way it did. I mean, the Disneyland thing pretty much refutes the whole "skipping vaccinations is not biggie" argument. Someone came in with a disease that people weren't adequately vaccinated against, and the disease spread. It's like it's science or something.

So now imagine that your baby's daycare is Disneyland and the measles-carrying sibling of some other baby is the tourist from the Philippines. Sibling comes in with Mom to pick up baby, spreads measles to all the too-young-to-be-vaccinated babies. Bad things happen.

And scene.

I totally get that the more people vaccinated the less is can spread, however In California there are always going to be people around who aren't fully vaccinated or are against vaccinating their kids and who will bypass the new law through homeschooling. This new law will increase the vaccination rate among public schooled children, which will make some difference, but how much? Anyone I know who doesn't vaccinate their kids already home schools. The recent outbreak still came in through someone who recently came from Asia, so shouldn't California start getting stricter about checking the vaccination status of every person who enters the state? A tourist carrying measles or whatever hypothetical disease is still going to pass it on to all the babies too young to be vaccinated for it. I still don't see California taking any steps in that direction which is surprising since they're so concerned about stopping the spread of disease.

How is that slippery slope going? Well we still have a government who hasn't totally gone crazy. What if the fundies happened to take over a state (hey, they are the ones breeding like crazy) and decided that they wanted to mandate all special needs kids or homosexuals had to get sterilized or something similar? It sounds crazy, but things like that have happened before and I have no doubt it could happen again.

[Toothfairy]

I don't think anti vaxxers seen some of these diseases. Do you know how many parents in third world countries would love to have their kid vaccinated? Children die from these diseases. It's painful to watch. If you don't want to vaccinate your kid then homeschool. The religious exempt was ridiculous anyway. Where in the bible does it say vaccination is a sin? And I'm sure plenty of anti vaxxer parents have gotten vaccinated. Why not do the same to your kid.

[formergothardite]

Snarkylark, if you know vaccines are not 100% effective why do you keep asking why vaccinated people are worried about catching things from unvaccinated people? I really want to know because you have asked that over and over on this thread and when called out about it you say that you know vaccinated can catch things from unvaccinated, but then you go and ask the same question again.

This is why people question what sort of a nurse you would be.