CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[Snarkylark]

:clap:

Thanks for saying that, VelociRapture. I was trying to figure out how to say it without it being nuts.

Bottom line, I don't give a flying fig what you do with your pregnancy-or-not situation. It doesn't affect me. I do care, however, if you come near me unvaccinated, because then you're infringing on my "right" to be healthy. If you want to do your thing and enact your "right" not to vaccinate, that's just fine. But if that's the case, you should be the one staying at home. Hinging the lives of others on the crazy and unsubstantiated fear you might have a negative reaction to a vaccine is just nutty to me.

OMG that abortion comment. I'm starting to second the leg-bumper theory. Anna Duggar is among us.

Nope, not Anna Duggar. I just find it interesting that it's OK to kill a child as long as it isn't born yet and call that a choice even though someone dies as a result of that choice, but it's becoming NOT OK to have a choice about other medical procedures.

[SassyPants]

Nope, not Anna Duggar. I just find it interesting that it's OK to kill a child as long as it isn't born yet and call that a choice even though someone dies as a result of that choice, but it's becoming NOT OK to have a choice about other medical procedures.

But in CA, parents still have a choice.

You want a consequence free choice.

[Snarkylark]

Georgiana, your post makes me incredibly sad.

[happy atheist]

Ok, let's be honest here. How many of the disease we vaccinate for are always fatal or always cause disabilities? Are there some vaccines which the benefit of the vaccine outweighs the risk of the effects from contracting the disease? Certainly, and I think polio is one of those. BUT, that doesn't mean that the government should force everyone to get the vaccine. Perhaps watchful waiting and vaccinating if there is an OUTBREAK would be an option for some people? Same with pertussis. We know there have been outbreaks so efforts have been increased to make sure kids are covered. But for some of these vaccines to be part of a MANDATORY schedule is what I have a problem with. I don't feel it's necessary for newborns of healthy mothers to get vaccinated against Hep B. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to be given a flu shot every.single.year. And I don't think the gardasil vaccine should be mandatory, either. But if the government DECIDES they are, we won't have a choice. Do you see the problem here? And don't think it ends there. It won't.

You're meant to be a nurse, yes? A Degreed Medical Professional™? And yet you don't see that it's the lack of vaccinations that is likely to cause an outbreak? So if people don't vaccinate until there is an outbreak, it's too fucking late? It's called preventative medicine because it PREVENTS disease.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Oh, and I am not saying that parents should be able to let their child die. But I don't think we're talking about that here. How many that got measles in the latest outbreak died or have lasting, permanent effects from the measles? We aren't talking about sudden death here in a developed country with access to excellent health care. The parents who deny their diabetic child insulin, yes. That's wrong and acutely fatal, and IMO not the same type of issue.

We actually do not know how many who got measles in the recent outbreak have lasting, permanent effects. Some complications do not show themselves until years after someone has had measles and gotten well. I had measles at 13 months, and my issues with my eyes didn't get bad until after I'd recovered. I can see with corrective lenses, but I've had to undergo an uncommon lot of poking and prodding about the eyes. And then there's this doozy of a side effect that can show up years after the illness:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001419.htm

[Snarkylark]

But in CA, parents still have a choice.

You want a consequence free choice.

I don't deny that. As I already stated, forced medical procedures tied to conditions are unethical, IMO.

[formergothardite]

Government telling parents that to go to public school without vaccines they must have a medial exemption = Hitler.

Government controlling women's bodies by denying them the right to make medical decisions forcing them to do something they don't want to do = Good!

[Snarkylark]

You're meant to be a nurse, yes? A Degreed Medical Professional™? And yet you don't see that it's the lack of vaccinations that is likely to cause an outbreak? So if people don't vaccinate until there is an outbreak, it's too fucking late? It's called preventative medicine because it PREVENTS disease.

No, I completely understand that. And I'd guess that MOST people are continuing to get their vaccinations. What I'm saying is for some people perhaps there's another choice. If these diseases start popping up again they can decide to get the vaccines. You all act as if the minirity who don't get vaccines are going to cause huge outbreaks where millions die. Well, if people are vaccinated and the vaccines work then you have nothing to worry about from a handful of people that choose to forego vaccinations.

[lawfulevil]

Bringing up poor people and the cost of getting an exemption? Really? Okay.

My father didn't get chicken pox until his second child brought it home from Kindergarten a few years before the vaccine came out. He was very ill and was hospitalized at one point. He also missed weeks of work. As a salaried employee he had paid leave and medical insurance, but if he'd been an hourly employee, between the hospitalization and the missed work, we could easily have lost our home.

There are people- many of them, some even on this very forum- who wouldn't be able to pay their rent if they missed a week of work. Some would be FIRED if they took a week off sick. Doctor's note or no. And it wouldn't be actionable- one because lawyers cost money, and two because on paper it would be termination due to excessive write-ups- aka, the first 3 things someone could find to write them up over. All those lovely little company rules nobody ever enforces (or even tells you about) until it's time to can your ass for something you can't legally fire someone over. Sure, the 300 page employee handbook contains all these rules... wherever the hell it is, probably in the bottom of a drawer somewhere... but who has time to read the thing?

Illness is a HUGE problem for poor people, and we have no way of making the financial losses from vaccine-preventable disease equitable. You don't vaccinate your child for a disease, I catch the disease for whatever reason- because I can't get the vaccine for valid health or allergy reasons, because I have a cruddy immune system and the vaccine didn't fully work, because too much time has gone by- you have no liability for the harm you've done me or my financial losses.

If you rear-end me in traffic and I miss 2 weeks of work, my insurance will sue your insurance. If you give me measles, I'm screwed.

[FundieFarmer]

/snip

Nope, not Anna Duggar. I just find it interesting that it's OK to kill a child as long as it isn't born yet and call that a choice even though someone dies as a result of that choice, but it's becoming NOT OK to have a choice about other medical procedures.

Um, there's a lot of subjectivity there, based on, oh, I don't know: your religion, your generation, your personal belief system, your social status, and your what-have-you. Coincidentally, those things aren't universal.

You call it a child (presumably at any stage of development, I suppose), I call it tissue until it is medically defined as a formulated human. You say it's killing a child, I say removing tissue.

Not everybody sees it how you do, so you'll need to rely on more than just your subjective feelings to get your point considered.

[Anny Nym]

To add a For fucking Godwin´s sake to @VelociRapture´s great Oh for fucks´sake post.

Seems they're trying to repeat Nazi Germany -- how Hilter started the insanity--- healthcare. Be brave and check an honest history book. God bless the children.

@Snarkylark...

I don´t care if you mean what you write or if you are just here for trolling. Just don´t say or write such stupid shit like a "government healthcare is like Hitler". Period.

That comparison is (besides the whole quote being a utterly bizarre ramble of words) a gross distortion and highly offensive.

[Snarkylark]

Government telling parents that to go to public school without vaccines they must have a medial exemption = Hitler.

Government controlling women's bodies by denying them the right to make medical decisions forcing them to do something they don't want to do = Good!

No, government says women have a choice with what to do with their bodies and parents should have the choice to undergo medical procedures.

[formergothardite]

No, I completely understand that. And I'd guess that MOST people are continuing to get their vaccinations. What I'm saying is for some people perhaps there's another choice. If these diseases start popping up again they can decide to get the vaccines. You all act as if the minirity who don't get vaccines are going to cause huge outbreaks where millions die. Well, if people are vaccinated and the vaccines work then you have nothing to worry about from a handful of people that choose to forego vaccinations.

As a Degreed Health Professional I'm surprised that you don't know vaccines are not 100% effective so vaccinated children can still catch things from people who are unvaccinated and go out in public.

[Snarkylark]

To add a For fucking Godwin´s sake to @VelociRapture´s great Oh for fucks´sake post.

@Snarkylark...

I don´t care if you mean what you write or if you are just here for trolling. Just don´t say or write such stupid shit like a "government healthcare is like Hitler". Period.

That comparison is (besides the whole quote being a utterly bizarre ramble of words) a gross distortion and highly offensive.

As I posted, those aren't my words. I should have deleted the Hitler point. That was not the point I was trying to get across. It was another poster that I had copied and pasted and in my haste to post didn't remove that line. And I'm not here trolling. Lol

[Snarkylark]

As a Degreed Health Professional I'm surprised that you don't know vaccines are not 100% effective so vaccinated children can still catch things from people who are unvaccinated and go out in public.

No, I DO know that, which is why I find it funny that this is even an argument. "Vaccines work, except when they don't, so......"

[lilah]

Forced medical procedures are never a good thing. What kind of society are we in where one can terminate a fetus but can't choose whether or not to vaccinate without repercussions?

I thought vaccines were mandated for enrolling school. But not if you homeschool

[FundieFarmer]

No, I completely understand that. And I'd guess that MOST people are continuing to get their vaccinations. What I'm saying is for some people perhaps there's another choice. If these diseases start popping up again they can decide to get the vaccines. You all act as if the minirity who don't get vaccines are going to cause huge outbreaks where millions die. Well, if people are vaccinated and the vaccines work then you have nothing to worry about from a handful of people that choose to forego vaccinations.

...why is this reminding me of the Bystander effect?

And, those diseases did start to pop up again- measles being an excellent example of that. These diseases aren't dead and gone forever, you know. One of the consequences of globalization is that we are now more exposed to diseases and illnesses present in the international community that have otherwise been eradicated here. I live in an international hub, perhaps you do not, so this is not an issue for you. But if you assume we don't have them here and therefore don't get your vaccine, but are exposed to one of the myriad travelers, tourists, and immigrants who may bring one of those illnesses with them, guess who is not only at risk themselves but also of exposing others?

[The Duggar's Mohel]

Abortion is a choice for a woman to do what she would like to her body.

Not getting vaccinated is a choice that can affect many bodies unwillingly.

There's your difference.

[lawfulevil]

:roll:

So what color is everyone else painting their nails this week? I got some Sally Hansen gel from Target a few weeks ago, I think I'll give it a shot. It's "Get Mod 450", a white(!).

[Snarkylark]

Abortion is a choice for a woman to do what she would like to her body.

Not getting vaccinated is a choice that can affect many bodies unwillingly.

There's your difference.

Except the life that the woman is carrying

[FundieFarmer]

:roll:

So what color is everyone else painting their nails this week? I got some Sally Hansen gel from Target a few weeks ago, I think I'll give it a shot. It's "Get Mod 450", a white(!).

I'm due for a polish change this week! I can't decide on a color. I tend to stick with bridal tones, though last time I chose a slate grey and regretted that pretty quickly. It's too hot here for that and my style isn't trendy enough. But I'm getting awful tired of light pink, coral, darker pink, lighter coral tones...

[nelliebelle1197]

Ok, let's be honest here. How many of the disease we vaccinate for are always fatal or always cause disabilities? Are there some vaccines which the benefit of the vaccine outweighs the risk of the effects from contracting the disease? Certainly, and I think polio is one of those. BUT, that doesn't mean that the government should force everyone to get the vaccine. Perhaps watchful waiting and vaccinating if there is an OUTBREAK would be an option for some people? Same with pertussis. We know there have been outbreaks so efforts have been increased to make sure kids are covered. But for some of these vaccines to be part of a MANDATORY schedule is what I have a problem with. I don't feel it's necessary for newborns of healthy mothers to get vaccinated against Hep B. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to be given a flu shot every.single.year. And I don't think the gardasil vaccine should be mandatory, either. But if the government DECIDES they are, we won't have a choice. Do you see the problem here? And don't think it ends there. It won't.

Obviously, you don't understand the theories behind public health. And you know what, explain your "choice" garbage to my first cousin, Billy. He contracted polio right before the vaccine. He spent the first five years of his life in and out of St Jude. He is nearly 60 and had never walked, run or had a painfree day. He recently lost both his legs so he can no longer even use crutches. The "choice" of a few idiots who have no proof other than anecdotes to back their claims somehow outweigh the rights of thousands of children not to end up like Billy. Screw that.

[TuringMachine]

You wouldn't say this if your child was vaccine injured.

I still would because the statistical anomaly of my child have sever negative effects from a vaccine is still way way lower than the chance of them and other children dying of the disease.

[Snarkylark]

Obviously, you don't understand the theories behind public health. And you know what, explain your "choice" garbage to my first cousin, Billy. He contracted polio right before the vaccine. He spent the first five years of his life in and out of St Jude. He is nearly 60 and had never walked, run or had a painfree day. He recently lost both his legs so he can no longer even use crutches. The "choice" of a few idiots who have no proof other than anecdotes to back their claims somehow outweigh the rights of thousands of children not to end up like Billy. Screw that.

Please RE-READ what I said about the polio vaccine.

[The Duggar's Mohel]

Except the life that the woman is carrying

We're all entitled to our opinions, and I respect yours, I just don't share it.

Needlessly risking healthy lives is far worse than stopping a birth, IMO.