CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[Snarkylark]

Oh look, another blog. Like I said, if you want your posts to taken with any amount of credibility, you'll find real, credible sources. Anyone can make a blog. It requires actual work to find real, credible information, and that's the only type of information I care about.

For the record, you can't even claim that it's credible because of the profession the person holds. Why? Because a woman I met at the park one day read a blog "from a occupational and physical therapist" that claimed that children wouldn't develop proper balance if they didn't jump from high heights (6 feet and higher) as early as 18 months old. And, if they didn't learn that balance skill, they'd have serious emotional, mental, and physical delays throughout life. As a result, she decided that her 4 year old daughter MUST jump from the highest part of the playscape until she learned how to land properly. (I wish to god I could say I made that up.) She also instructed the other parents in her mommy group to do the same thing with their children (ages 2-5).

The internet is a very dangerous place for people who don't do their due diligence and find real, credible sources of their information before acting upon it.

The blog post is about right to choice

[Snarkylark]

Well, you'd be allowing parents to randomly decide not to vaccinate against polio which would potentially allow people who could not get the vaccine and young babies to be unnecessarily exposed to polio. So...

I still maintain that they should have the choice.

[Petrel]

Hep B cannot be spread through saliva or casual contact. http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/hbv/bfaq.htm#bFAQ10

I stated healthy newborns born to healthy mothers do not need the hep B vaccine. If there is any doubt, titers can be and I'm pretty sure are routinely done at the first prenatal checkup.

I don't just flail around making stuff up. Children can transmit hepatitis B to each other through saliva or blood. It is rare but has been documented.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2626287

In hepatitis B endemic areas child to child transmission is the main mode of transmission after exposure during childbirth.

Since the vaccine is safe and effective and the risks to a child who catches it are so high, all children should be vaccinated at birth and get boosters as recommended.

[FakePigtails]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102473744

Nice try. That's a press release from a group, not a news article. From that link "The Weston A. Price Foundation is a 501©(3) nutrition education foundation with the mission of disseminating accurate, science-based information on diet and health. Named after nutrition pioneer Weston A. Price, DDS, author of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, the Washington, DC-based Foundation publishes a quarterly journal for its 15,000 members, supports 600 local chapters worldwide and hosts a yearly international conference. The Foundation phone number is (202) 363-4394(202) 363-4394, westonaprice.org, info@westonaprice.org. "

What's on that website?westonaprice.org/uncategorized/wapf-position-on-vaccinations/

Yeah, great source there.

This would almost be funny if we weren't arguing with an actual health care professional :angry-banghead:

[Snarkylark]

I don't just flail around making stuff up. Children can transmit hepatitis B to each other through saliva or blood. It is rare but has been documented.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2626287

In hepatitis B endemic areas child to child transmission is the main mode of transmission after exposure during childbirth.

Since the vaccine is safe and effective and the risks to a child who catches it are so high, all children should be vaccinated at birth and get boosters as recommended.

This doesn't prove that the virus was transmitted through saliva. It mentions biting, scratching, and bloody eczema.

[Snarkylark]

Nice try. That's a press release from a group, not a news article. From that link "The Weston A. Price Foundation is a 501©(3) nutrition education foundation with the mission of disseminating accurate, science-based information on diet and health. Named after nutrition pioneer Weston A. Price, DDS, author of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, the Washington, DC-based Foundation publishes a quarterly journal for its 15,000 members, supports 600 local chapters worldwide and hosts a yearly international conference. The Foundation phone number is (202) 363-4394(202) 363-4394, westonaprice.org, info@westonaprice.org. "

What's on that website? westonaprice.org/uncategorized/wapf-position-on-vaccinations/

Yeah, great source there.

This would almost be funny if we weren't arguing with an actual health care professional :angry-banghead:

Are you actually denying the face that immunized children can spread disease or cause outbreaks? It's right in some of the vaccine inserts.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The blog post is about right to choice

It's still a blog and shouldn't be used in this discussion. I could go through the internet and find THOUSANDS of blogs, articles, facebook posts, etc stating people's opinion on limiting or removing the choice to vaccinate, but I'm not because they're NOT relevant. Your post obviously seems relevant to you, and probably because it agrees with you, but the opinion of someone outside this thread does not matter to this thread. It does not validate your beliefs, it doesn't add anything to the discussion, etc.

[FakePigtails]

This doesn't prove that the virus was transmitted through saliva. It mentions biting, scratching, and bloody eczema.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/hep ... rents.html

How does hepatitis B spread?

Hepatitis B virus spreads through blood or other body fluids that contain small amounts of blood from an infected person. People can spread the virus even when they have no symptoms.

Babies and children can get hepatitis B in the following ways:

-At birth from their infected mother

-Being bitten by an infected person

-By touching open cuts or sores of an infected person

-Through sharing toothbrushes or other personal items used by an infected person

-From food that was chewed (for a baby) by an infected person

The virus can live on objects for 7 days or more. Even if you don’t see any blood, there could be virus on an object.

I believe the idea is that there could be enough blood in a child's saliva, even if not visible, to enable transmission to occur. Even if that weren't possible, kids get exposed to each other's blood often enough for hep b to be a concern. Hep b isn't that uncommon, and it's not like parents are going to be like "btw, I have hep b and passed it on to little Joey so be careful if he cuts himself at your place!"

[Petrel]

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/hep ... rents.html

I believe the idea is that there could be enough blood in a child's saliva, even if not visible, to enable transmission to occur. Even if that weren't possible, kids get exposed to each other's blood often enough for hep b to be a concern. Hep b isn't that uncommon, and it's not like parents are going to be like "btw, I have hep b and passed it on to little Joey so be careful if he cuts himself at your place!"

I think it's more there were enough virions in the child's saliva to infect another child when introduced into a bite-inflicted wound.

Unfortunately biting is pretty common for little kids.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Are you actually denying the face that immunized children can spread disease or cause outbreaks? It's right in some of the vaccine inserts.

Because they HAVE to write that; not only being sued if someone does contract or carry the disease, but because the FDA's laws require that type of language. Vaccines are NOT 100% effective, as has been stated on here. Just like you're not guaranteed to receive full immunity after contracting a disease (like I've stated before, I didn't receive full immunity after contracting the chicken pox as a kid), you're not guaranteed to receive full immunity after receiving a vaccination. A vaccine insert MUST include language that expresses that fact. If it doesnt, it would not clear FDA approval (which they must receive EVERY TIME anything is changed on the insert). As a nurse, you should both know AND understand that.

[FakePigtails]

Are you actually denying the face that immunized children can spread disease or cause outbreaks? It's right in some of the vaccine inserts.

No, because I've read enough about vaccines to understand that with a select few of them, there's a minuscule hypothetical risk of transmission to severely immune-compromised people. However, I have never heard of an outbreak caused by that much less a single case. Googling "vaccine shedding" pulls up all kinds of crap websites much like the one your sourced above.

Do you realize what kind of damage you do by sharing such fear-mongering, pseudoscience-filled websites? Any bullshit website is going to spread a few technical facts around for credibility to people who aren't as skeptical as they should be, and then they include all the other made-up junk that can really harm people who don't know better and start following these crazy ideas.

You also lose credibility yourself with people who do have any level of scientific understanding because you keep propping yourself up on such weak "sources".

This is written by a board-certified physician and addresses concerns about supposed shedding: http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immuniza ... ccines.htm

Fortunately, vaccine shedding is not usually a problem because:

• most vaccines are not live and don't shed, including DTaP, Tdap, flu shots, Hib, hepatitis A and B, Prevnar, IPV, and the HPV and Meningococcal vaccines
  
• the oral polio vaccine is no longer used in the United States and many other countries where polio has been brought under control
  
• the MMR vaccine doesn't cause shedding, except that the rubella part of the vaccine may rarely shed into breastmilk (since rubella is typically a mild infection in children, this isn't a reason to not be vaccinated if you are breastfeeding though). What about the rare case of a person developing measles after getting the MMR vaccine? In addition to being extremely rare, it would also be extremely rare for a person to transmit the vaccine virus to another person after developing measles in this way.
  
• the chicken pox vaccine doesn't cause shedding unless your child very rarely develops a vesicular rash after getting vaccinated. However, the risk is thought to be minimal and the CDC reports only 5 cases of transmission of varicella vaccine virus after immunization among over 55 million doses of vaccine.
  
• the rotavirus vaccine only causes shedding in stool, so can be avoided with routine hygiene techniques, such as good hand washing, and if immunocompromised people avoid diaper changes, etc., for at least a week after a child gets a rotavirus vaccine
  
• transmission of the live, nasal spray flu vaccine has not been found in several settings, including people with HIV infection, children getting chemotherapy, and immunocompromised people in health-care settings

[OkToBeTakei]

I had to get the flu shot in 2013. That was the year I had a suspected reaction. For the year 2014 I got a medical exemption from my doctor so I didn't have to get the flu shot this past season and for the remainder of my employment with the organization I'm with now. Clear enough for you?

So there is absolutely no way at all to prove a Flu vaccine caused a condition you say you have, a condition which could also be hereditary or easily just explained by your sex age or many other factors. You also could not prove an attack of hives was caused by said vaccine as let's face it there thousands of causes of rashes with thousands of causes. Yet your overwhelming argument/blame is the flu vaccine.

What really strikes me is as a health professional who's overriding remit is to protect and even more importantly ETHICALLY do no harm. You appear to put your beliefs above those of the vulnerable group you are supposed to be caring for, to the point it seems you are almost pleased with getting this exemption.

I really find this distasteful.

[Lustin4Ankles]

I believe the idea is that there could be enough blood in a child's saliva, even if not visible, to enable transmission to occur. Even if that weren't possible, kids get exposed to each other's blood often enough for hep b to be a concern. Hep b isn't that uncommon, and it's not like parents are going to be like "btw, I have hep b and passed it on to little Joey so be careful if he cuts himself at your place!"

Most people do not have blood in their saliva. Blood in one's saliva is not normal.

[FakePigtails]

Most people do not have blood in their saliva. Blood in one's saliva is not normal.

Large amounts, no, but people bite their tongues or cheeks while eating pretty regularly, or get a bit of bleeding from brushing teeth too hard or flossing. That could be all it takes.

edit: that's not to say it's a sure-fire transmission risk, but it's presumably why saliva gets considered as "possible" for it in this chart: http://hr.umich.edu/mhealthy/programs/o ... blood.html

And if the issues for you is also the hep b vaccine for kids, there's still the issue of kids bleeding "normally" easily, be it scraped knees, picking at scabs, etc. If a kid with hep b does that, as one of my previous links said, there's a definite transmission risk to anyone who touches that blood, and it can survive for a week outside of the body.

[Boogalou]

I think Snarkylark's posts at least show how ineffective this law will be. Look how easy it was for Snarkylark to get a doctor's note for a medical exemption to the flu shot. Now parents who don't want their kids getting vaccinated will do the exact same thing, find a sympathetic doctor to write a note.

This law doesn't do much except waste everybody's resources and make it look like the lawmakers are doing something. It would be a lot more effective to launch public health campaigns, educate people on the benefits of vaccines or make vaccines available at no cost.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think Snarkylark's posts at least show how ineffective this law will be. Look how easy it was for Snarkylark to get a doctor's note for a medical exemption to the flu shot. Now parents who don't want their kids getting vaccinated will do the exact same thing, find a sympathetic doctor to write a note.

This law doesn't do much except waste everybody's resources and make it look like the lawmakers are doing something. It would be a lot more effective to launch public health campaigns, educate people on the benefits of vaccines or make vaccines available at no cost.

Even worse, a lot of anti-vax groups on facebook actually suggest and support the notion that parents should FAKE medical records when attending school or daycare so they can get around the laws/other rules.

ETA:

I don't think it wastes large amount of time or resources. The MAJORITY of people aren't going to go the route of faking medical problems or forging documents. Sure, some people will probably go to the doctor and try to convince the doctor to write them a medical exemption, but the majority of doctors wont. The parents will then either try to find a new doctor, or they will have to choose between not sending their kids to public school or vaccinating. Not a large amount of time will be lost. Especially considering that 90.4% of the 535,332 kindergarteners in reporting schools and 97.8% of the 489,643 seventh graders in reporting schools were on schedule with the vaccines required for school attendance.

[FundieFarmer]

So there is absolutely no way at all to prove a Flu vaccine caused a condition you say you have, a condition which could also be hereditary or easily just explained by your sex age or many other factors. You also could not prove an attack of hives was caused by said vaccine as let's face it there thousands of causes of rashes with thousands of causes. Yet your overwhelming argument/blame is the flu vaccine.

What really strikes me is as a health professional who's overriding remit is to protect and even more importantly ETHICALLY do no harm. You appear to put your beliefs above those of the vulnerable group you are supposed to be caring for, to the point it seems you are almost pleased with getting this exemption.

I really find this distasteful.

How does this work with your other vaccines, SnarkyLark? You said you're vaxxed. How are you just now getting a medical exemption?

[EmmieJ]

On page 2 of this thread:

On page 10:

And now:

It seems that we have a lying liar who lies - and who is not smart enough to keep her stories straight.

Ding, ding ding!!! We have a winner. Thank you all for playing. :clap:

[nokidsmom]

Ding, ding ding!!! We have a winner. Thank you all for playing. :clap:

Give 'em enough rope...... :cracking-up:

[EmmieJ]

Because they HAVE to write that; not only being sued if someone does contract or carry the disease, but because the FDA's laws require that type of language. Vaccines are NOT 100% effective, as has been stated on here. Just like you're not guaranteed to receive full immunity after contracting a disease (like I've stated before, I didn't receive full immunity after contracting the chicken pox as a kid), you're not guaranteed to receive full immunity after receiving a vaccination. A vaccine insert MUST include language that expresses that fact. If it doesnt, it would not clear FDA approval (which they must receive EVERY TIME anything is changed on the insert). As a nurse, you should both know AND understand that.

Yes, as a nurse, Snarkylark should know that, yet apparently does not. As I said earlier, I hope she's just posing as an RN on-line, or at least has a supervisor monitoring her interactions with patients.

[Snarkylark]

So there is absolutely no way at all to prove a Flu vaccine caused a condition you say you have, a condition which could also be hereditary or easily just explained by your sex age or many other factors. You also could not prove an attack of hives was caused by said vaccine as let's face it there thousands of causes of rashes with thousands of causes. Yet your overwhelming argument/blame is the flu vaccine.

What really strikes me is as a health professional who's overriding remit is to protect and even more importantly ETHICALLY do no harm. You appear to put your beliefs above those of the vulnerable group you are supposed to be caring for, to the point it seems you are almost pleased with getting this exemption.

I really find this distasteful.

I find forcing vaccines on people distasteful. I should add that as previous posters have stated in this very thread that some people are harmed by vaccines. How does that fit with your "do no harm" argument?

And therein lies the problems with vaccine safety. We can't prove that a vaccine did or didn't cause my autoimmune condition or at least contribute to it. But my doctor seemed to think that for me the flu shot should be waived. I didn't have to do any coercion or pleading. I just asked. Am I glad I don't have to get it? Absolutely! The CDC says that even in a good year it's only 50% effective, at best. But yet we are mandating this on people so that hospitals can get their full Medicare reimbursement? I think that's wrong. There are plenty of arguments against the flu vaccine. What's next-a vaccine for the common cold?

[Snarkylark]

Give 'em enough rope...... :cracking-up:

I already addressed this up thread.

[Snarkylark]

Yes, as a nurse, Snarkylark should know that, yet apparently does not. As I said earlier, I hope she's just posing as an RN on-line, or at least has a supervisor monitoring her interactions with patients.

They have to write that because it can happen! Do you really think that anyone who agrees with my standpoint is going to chime up in this thread after you have ridiculed and tried to discredit me and my nursing practice? Smh

I'm not here to change anyone's mind on vaccines or say they are always dangerous, shouldn't be given, etc. I'm here to stand up for the right to have a choice in what goes into my body. I'm not an antivaxxer. I believe in making an informed choice and giving informed consent as with any medical procedure. Nobody here wants little kids or little grandmas to die. Nobody's calling for an end to vaccination.

To go back to herd immunity for a second-

Herd immunity is ONE way vaccines work. It's not the only way.

[Snarkylark]

An article proving why we need to do more studies

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/ ... id=2300376

[Petrel]

An article proving why we need to do more studies

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/ ... id=2300376

Seriously? No one would suggest extremely low birth weight neonates who are in the NICU be treated the same as healthy full-term infants.

Though I am always in favor of more studies of everything. :D :D