CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[IronicallyMaeve]

http://www.latimes.com/local/political/ ... story.html

It is kind of a relief...my county is full of people (who, interestingly, seem to lie on the extreme ends of the political spectrum) who refuse to vaccinate their kids and cause they believe vaccination causes everything from autism to cancer to herpes. Okay, I made the last one up.

[Maggie Mae]

It's interesting how on some issues the extreme right and extreme left are in agreement.

[Koala]

Lori's all in a dither. She thinks perhaps she and Ken should move :?

From Always Learning Facebook:

Random Pearl Clutcher:

Hi Lori- Are you aware of the legislation in CA SB277 that will do away with personal beliefs and religious exemptions for vaccination for children to enter school? The way this law is written, if your child does not have 100% of the shots on the school list- they are not allowed in a public, private, or even homeschool charter. The CA Assembly has been pushing this bill through at a break-neck pace.

Lori:

Thank you, Jamie. When I saw this, I told Ken it was time to leave CA.

[SassyPants]

I'm in CA- was a pediatric/neonatal ICU nurse for 35 years, gave vaccines and had my kids vaccinated.

I think the vaccine schedule certainly could be elongated so that kids are not getting so many toxins at once, but I do believe in giving vaccines to otherwise healthy children.

I look at it this way- they have been proven effective at eradicating disease. Plus, EVERYTHING on the Earth is potentially harmful and grim as it is, we are all eventually terminal. So for all those who are anti- this medical treatment, do you avoid all medical treatments because they might be potentially dangerous? Antibiotics for a known infection? Xrays to r/o a broken bone? Surgery? Dental cleanings? Have you ever signed a consent form (or given a verbal consent, which vaccines in CA do require) and notice that one of the adverse side effects might be death??? Yes, because given the right situation, within a certain body, any medicine or medical procedure can result in death. Yet, people sign away. In fact, in 35 years, I never had a parent refuse to sign any consent, ever.

And if you're really against vaccines for a non medically exempt child, you still have educational choices. Co-op education comes immediately to my mind.

The people who drive me crazy are the ones that refuse the vaccines (I get it), but who also want the state to figure out the education piece, as none of the alternative educational choices are palatable, in their opinion. Or, they want the state to pay for them to use other educational systems.

I somehow managed to pay for my kids' private school educations for 13 years + college and grad school.

These are typically the less "government" kind of people- unless it involves them getting the government money.

[Snarkylark]

Forced medical procedures are never a good thing. What kind of society are we in where one can terminate a fetus but can't choose whether or not to vaccinate without repercussions?

[TuringMachine]

I have lots of family in California and they're all (well most of them anyway) really excited about this. Me too. Makes me feel safer about the idea of having kids.

[lawlifelgbt]

I'm really glad about this! I understand the personal rights argument, but I have two points:

1. Children are not property; children have an (albeit limited) right to make choices where appropriate. What about, for instance, an older kid who gets pulled out of school because her parents won't let her get vaccinated, and she misses two weeks of AP classes and messes up her college chances? Fundamentally, I don't like the idea that parents can usurp their kids' autonomy like that; and

2. More saliently, your individual rights affect all others around you. You are not allowed to legally hit people, correct? But, you have freedom of movement. Therefore, you can move your arm until it hits my face. To make the vaccine analogy, you have a lot of allowed "movement" re: decisions for your kids, but spreading severe disease (that's why the vaccines were invented, because the diseases are so bad!), is punching me in the face. With your germs. I am vaccinated, but since this was in the early 90s, I am not vaccinated against everything that kids are now against, most notably pneumonia, chickenpox, and some adult boosters (due to stupid parents causing health insurance issues). This means that I am at risk from unvaccinated kids for the non-vaccinated diseases, plus immunity may wear off after 20 years.

I have severe asthma, too. So it's not a matter of "I may catch it," it means "if I catch any communicable respiratory disease from your unvaccinated kid, I may die or end up with hundreds of thousands of hospital debt." I don't see the parent whose kid might give me that disease stepping up to pay my bills, or even taking precautions so that their kid doesn't sneeze/cough on me. My friend's fiancee, too, had cancer as a kid. This means she could not vaccinate for many things, and still can't due to immune problems. Because of clotting/other issues, she also can't take many common medicines you might take OTC if you're sick. So people who don't vaccinate will literally kill her if their kid passes it, or at minimum make her very miserable for weeks because she can't take most painkillers and doesn't have a strong immune system.

[ADoyle90815]

I'm in California, and I think this is a good thing since there's a reason people once had larger families, to ensure that at least a few of them survived childhood, as many children died before the age of 5 because of diseases that we now vaccinate against. Even though I'm one of those whose MMR vaccine didn't fully protect against mumps, at least I can say that my case was milder than it might have been had the vaccine not been available.

[16strong]

It is not a mandatory injection (that I know of), but I have declined a vaccine, and twice. I opted out of taking Gardasil, before it really took off and became a 'thing.'

My mother didn't like the idea of me being injected with something so new, and I did research and became very uncomfortable with some of the side effects and inuries associated with it. I was offered the same series of shots years later by a VERY pushy doctor. I firmly told her no, and did not feel the need to explain myself. Had I, she likely would have done everything she could to try to combat my reasoning.

I do not feel guilty for declining Gardasil, and I would make the same choice today.

Whether we like it or not, vaccines belong to medical corporations, and medical corporations are businesses. Although regulated, they exist to make money, and they are human. Sometimes they get things wrong.

Under this law, I would hate to see new vaccines become mandatory soon after release, because sometimes the true effects of medications and injections are not seen for years. See Thalidomide, Vioxx, etc. On the one hand, I agree with kids getting potentially life-saving shots. Many of them are necessary to keep deadly diseases from spreading. On the other hand, I value personal informed choice, and I don't like the idea of the American public being given as a sacrifice to a handful of corporations out to make money and no more. I am very divided.

[formergothardite]

Forced medical procedures are never a good thing. What kind of society are we in where one can terminate a fetus but can't choose whether or not to vaccinate without repercussions?

Why the hell does everything have to get related to abortion?

[CelticGoddess]

Why the hell does everything have to get related to abortion?

Because that's all the fundies have.

[Jana814]

I'm glad this has happened.

[Howl]

Front page of the Austin American Statesman (Texas) today: all 70 pediatricians with ARC (Austin Regional Clinic) will no longer accept or continue with pediatric patients who are not vaccinated or are behind on their vaccination schedule -- which is between 2000 to 3000 children. The ARC decision was in response to the Disneyland measles outbreak and also out of concern for health-compromised children who can't be vaccinated. It turns out that another practice in Austin with a large pediatric component quietly implemented the same policy about three years ago.

It just occurred to me that the entire concept of waiting rooms should be done away with, if you are worried about contagion.

I hate being in a waiting room with someone who is obviously ill with respiratory illness/flu.

Anyway, to clarify:

Vaccinations in the US are not a forced medical procedure

Abortion in the US is not a forced medical procedure

Required abortion in China as part of the strictly enforced One Child policy is a forced medical procedure

For those of us who were children when contracting polio was a reality, you are insane not to vaccinate your child against polio.

I've known people whose bodies were ravaged by childhood polio and even those who were infected but managed to escape its worst ravages are dealing with post-polio syndrome as adults.

Polio has been eradicated in most parts of the world, but all it takes is one infected person on an international flight returning to the US and the entire cycle can begin anew. It is simply a risk that no sane person would take.

[Howl]

Forced medical procedures are never a good thing. What kind of society are we in where one can terminate a fetus but can't choose whether or not to vaccinate without repercussions?

Public health

Herd immunity

You and your child's health are protected by people who choose vaccination.

Because your choices can have adverse consequences for many people, as well as your child.

[Snarkylark]

Because that's all the fundies have.

Because it's a protected CHOICE, as vaccination should be!

[Snarkylark]

Public health

Herd immunity

You and your child's health are protected by people who choose vaccination.

Because your choices can have adverse consequences for many people, as well as your child.

Exactly! People who CHOOSE to be vaccinated. If vaccines work, why are you worried about catching anything from the unvaxxed?

Did anyone die in the measles outbreak? Was anyone irreparably harmed? Didn't think so and in fact those people now have LIFE LONG immunity to measles. Did you know that the live measles virus is shed after vaccination, making VACCINATED kids more at risk of spreading the virus than an unvaccinated one?

[Snarkylark]

Front page of the Austin American Statesman (Texas) today: all 70 pediatricians with ARC (Austin Regional Clinic) will no longer accept or continue with pediatric patients who are not vaccinated or are behind on their vaccination schedule -- which is between 2000 to 3000 children. The ARC decision was in response to the Disneyland measles outbreak and also out of concern for health-compromised children who can't be vaccinated. It turns out that another practice in Austin with a large pediatric component quietly implemented the same policy about three years ago.

It just occurred to me that the entire concept of waiting rooms should be done away with, if you are worried about contagion.

I hate being in a waiting room with someone who is obviously ill with respiratory illness/flu.

Anyway, to clarify:

Vaccinations in the US are not a forced medical procedure

Abortion in the US is not a forced medical procedure

Required abortion in China as part of the strictly enforced One Child policy is a forced medical procedure

For those of us who were children when contracting polio was a reality, you are insane not to vaccinate your child against polio.

I've known people whose bodies were ravaged by childhood polio and even those who were infected but managed to escape its worst ravages are dealing with post-polio syndrome as adults.

Polio has been eradicated in most parts of the world, but all it takes is one infected person on an international flight returning to the US and the entire cycle can begin anew. It is simply a risk that no sane person would take.

Vaccines are now required in CA, making it a forced procedure if one wants to attend school. Can't you see the slippery slope here? When the U.S. Decides we should only have one or two children as China has, what do you think will happen?

No one is talking about not getting the polio vaccine. It's definitely one most people should get. The problem is the taking of freedom of choice away.

[Trynn]

It is not a mandatory injection (that I know of), but I have declined a vaccine, and twice. I opted out of taking Gardasil, before it really took off and became a 'thing.'

My mother didn't like the idea of me being injected with something so new, and I did research and became very uncomfortable with some of the side effects and inuries associated with it. I was offered the same series of shots years later by a VERY pushy doctor. I firmly told her no, and did not feel the need to explain myself. Had I, she likely would have done everything she could to try to combat my reasoning.

I do not feel guilty for declining Gardasil, and I would make the same choice today.

Whether we like it or not, vaccines belong to medical corporations, and medical corporations are businesses. Although regulated, they exist to make money, and they are human. Sometimes they get things wrong.

Under this law, I would hate to see new vaccines become mandatory soon after release, because sometimes the true effects of medications and injections are not seen for years. See Thalidomide, Vioxx, etc. On the one hand, I agree with kids getting potentially life-saving shots. Many of them are necessary to keep deadly diseases from spreading. On the other hand, I value personal informed choice, and I don't like the idea of the American public being given as a sacrifice to a handful of corporations out to make money and no more. I am very divided.

I'm divided as well. On the one hand I agree completely with this, but at the same time, the amount of people not vaccinating their kids is getting ridiculous. SOMETHING has to be done...

[jerkit]

Vaccination has been such a unity horse in every internet community I've been a part of until now and I am extremely uncomfortable.

[SassyPants]

I'm divided as well. On the one hand I agree completely with this, but at the same time, the amount of people not vaccinating their kids is getting ridiculous. SOMETHING has to be done...

As a person who gave vaccines and obtained informed consent from parents, I have to say that many of the people refusing, had done no research other than relying on hearsay. I would always tell them to do some research, and then give some written information and in addition, offer websites to peruse, to balance out the Pharm controlled written info/data available. I definetly think a balanced, educated approach is better. In my perfect world, the vaccine time schedule would be increased-it's all about money though, so that's why they give some many immunizations at one time; captive audience.

But I will say, many, if not most of those who refused, were doing so more because they could (advocacy in hyperdrive) vs for any medically grounded or scientific reason.

I think the state of CA just decided that the bandwagon approach had to end.

[Snarkylark]

I have lots of family in California and they're all (well most of them anyway) really excited about this. Me too. Makes me feel safer about the idea of having kids.

You wouldn't say this if your child was vaccine injured.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It's interesting how on some issues the extreme right and extreme left are in agreement.

As with every spectrum, if you go far enough in one direction, you come out the other side.

[Snarkylark]

I'm really glad about this! I understand the personal rights argument, but I have two points:

1. Children are not property; children have an (albeit limited) right to make choices where appropriate. What about, for instance, an older kid who gets pulled out of school because her parents won't let her get vaccinated, and she misses two weeks of AP classes and messes up her college chances? Fundamentally, I don't like the idea that parents can usurp their kids' autonomy like that; and

2. More saliently, your individual rights affect all others around you. You are not allowed to legally hit people, correct? But, you have freedom of movement. Therefore, you can move your arm until it hits my face. To make the vaccine analogy, you have a lot of allowed "movement" re: decisions for your kids, but spreading severe disease (that's why the vaccines were invented, because the diseases are so bad!), is punching me in the face. With your germs. I am vaccinated, but since this was in the early 90s, I am not vaccinated against everything that kids are now against, most notably pneumonia, chickenpox, and some adult boosters (due to stupid parents causing health insurance issues). This means that I am at risk from unvaccinated kids for the non-vaccinated diseases, plus immunity may wear off after 20 years.

I have severe asthma, too. So it's not a matter of "I may catch it," it means "if I catch any communicable respiratory disease from your unvaccinated kid, I may die or end up with hundreds of thousands of hospital debt." I don't see the parent whose kid might give me that disease stepping up to pay my bills, or even taking precautions so that their kid doesn't sneeze/cough on me. My friend's fiancee, too, had cancer as a kid. This means she could not vaccinate for many things, and still can't due to immune problems. Because of clotting/other issues, she also can't take many common medicines you might take OTC if you're sick. So people who don't vaccinate will literally kill her if their kid passes it, or at minimum make her very miserable for weeks because she can't take most painkillers and doesn't have a strong immune system.

You can choose now to get vaccinated to protect yourself. Did you have chicken pox as a child? If so, you don't need a vaccination because you are protected for life and you won't get CP again (typically.) The pneumo and CP vac are available for adults. Get them if you're concerned about it. They can check your titers to see if immunity has waned and you need boosters.

I find it interesting that you think it's ok to subject a child to potential vaccine injury so YOU won't get sick. Stay out of the public then. Same argument as those you want to force vaccinations on.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

You wouldn't say this if your child was vaccine injured.

Oh god. You're one of them.

Vaccine injuries are not what you think they are. They're side effects. That doesn't mean they're inherently bad, but some people react differently than others. In the majority of cases, they're things like swelling, mild fever, a red lump at the injection site, or a small rash. The worst that will happen is an anaphylactic reaction. The only one to persist after a couple days is the chance of getting a rash after the MMR, which is a possibility for up to 6 weeks.

You're child will NOT: end up with a mental handicap; be autistic; die (unless they have an anaphylactic reaction and you don't treat); be sick for the rest of its life; develop any physical or emotional disabilities; or otherwise end up with any of the crap I've heard anti-vaxxers claim was because of vaccines.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

You can choose now to get vaccinated to protect yourself. Did you have chicken pox as a child? If so, you don't need a vaccination because you are protected for life and you won't get CP again (typically.) The pneumo and CP vac are available for adults. Get them if you're concerned about it. They can check your titers to see if immunity has waned and you need boosters.

I find it interesting that you think it's ok to subject a child to potential vaccine injury so YOU won't get sick. Stay out of the public then. Same argument as those you want to force vaccinations on.

Sorry, but I got Chicken Pox twice in my life. I did not develop a life time of immunity, as promised. And I'd rather risk the REAL vaccine "injuries" than subject my children to the chicken pox. Why? Because when I got chicken pox the second time, everyone in my neighborhood (including my 6 year old sister, who had gotten the chicken pox when she was 1) broke out in shingles. One of my friends, who was 8 at the time, was so scarred from the shingles that nerves in her face, her arms, and her torso no longer functioned. She was so physically scarred from the shingles that she needed plastic surgery because it was the only way she could go through the day without breaking down. Before they allowed the surgery, she was so ashamed of how she looked that she begged her parents not to send her to school and she hid her face from anyone when they had the potential to see her.

And that's just chicken pox/shingles.

ETA:

For the record, my sister and I were both too old to get the chicken pox vaccinations as a child. My brother was in the first wave of kids required to get it as part of the vaccine schedule when we lived in Florida. We moved back to California, where personal belief exemptions allowed parents to say "chicken pox aren't that bad, I won't get my kids vaccinated against it." There was an outbreak at his school caused by the unvaccinated children. My brother and 22 other students were the only ones who didn't contract the disease. Why? Because they were vaccinated. As such, my brother's the only one in my family besides maybe my dad (my grandmother could never remember one way or the other, and he had the good fortune of being away on business both times that the chicken pox came into our house) who didn't get the chicken pox.