Jana's future

[quiversR4hunting]

The subject of the fundies and experience has been brought up on many threads in different ways several times.

think no matter anyone's story, virgin, one partner, handful of partners or more I think we all have the same thing that makes us sad for these new married couples. Lack of physical intimacy before marriage- I don't mean sex. Going from hand holding to an alter kiss and then sex within 5 hours is crazy.

I would bet most of us with "normal" dating relationships before marriage didn't go from holding hands, never been kissed to sex within hours. I think many of us were more like my high school BF and I- he took me out on my first date- dinner and movie- we held hands and a small awkward kiss. We went out on more dates, more hand holding, more small kisses building up to making out. Then built up to fondling, with clothes, partial clothes, etc. We ended up not having sex- we almost did I remember my head was screaming to ask him "do you have a condom?" but I couldn't get it out of my head and off my lips, so we didn't have sex- I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we would have had sex that night, but I digress. The point is we built up to being very intimate, it wasn't handholding at the movies to having sex when we got home without ever kissing, etc.

I'm not so sad that Jana (and others) are still virgins but what I am sad about is they can't get to know a mate without all the pressure of expecting to marry the first person you date (court). This is part of the reason I am glad Josiah has had the closest relationship to dating of any of the duggar kids so far. He is even acting like a teenager that just broke up with a girlfriend by deleting the couple pictures. It's a good learning experience, get to know what you want and like!

[DeFrauder]

by the way, I lean hetero.

HRT not an option here (or desired). I have a fibroid that should start to shrink once I hit menopause. (why yes as of last month I was still going on that front).

They yanked my uterus out many years ago and took the fibroids with it. I felt better immediately.

[DeFrauder]

The subject of the fundies and experience has been brought up on many threads in different ways several times.

think no matter anyone's story, virgin, one partner, handful of partners or more I think we all have the same thing that makes us sad for these new married couples. Lack of physical intimacy before marriage- I don't mean sex. Going from hand holding to an alter kiss and then sex within 5 hours is crazy.

I would bet most of us with "normal" dating relationships before marriage didn't go from holding hands, never been kissed to sex within hours. I think many of us were more like my high school BF and I- he took me out on my first date- dinner and movie- we held hands and a small awkward kiss. We went out on more dates, more hand holding, more small kisses building up to making out. Then built up to fondling, with clothes, partial clothes, etc. We ended up not having sex- we almost did I remember my head was screaming to ask him "do you have a condom?" but I couldn't get it out of my head and off my lips, so we didn't have sex- I sometimes wonder what would have happened if we would have had sex that night, but I digress. The point is we built up to being very intimate, it wasn't handholding at the movies to having sex when we got home without ever kissing, etc.

I'm not so sad that Jana (and others) are still virgins but what I am sad about is they can't get to know a mate without all the pressure of expecting to marry the first person you date (court). This is part of the reason I am glad Josiah has had the closest relationship to dating of any of the duggar kids so far. He is even acting like a teenager that just broke up with a girlfriend by deleting the couple pictures. It's a good learning experience, get to know what you want and like!

You are absolutely right. Its crazy fast. And very public. Plus it is a completely manufactured way of doing things. This isn't a practice that arose organically. Its parents experimenting and gambling on "a better way of doing things" while using their children as guinea pigs. The stakes are high.

[Daisy0322]

Yes some are not interested in sex and others have very eye ideals but unless we experiment and try new things h poo w is anyone suppose to have a satisfying sex life. And maybe it's because I connect sex to such a spiritual experience I think it's a interconnected part of life but I do feel like the duggars are going to suffer from lack of ingenuity. I mean you can still only have one partner and experiment and such but they idolize purity in such a way that they put more value on "this is what's expected" than creating a spiritual bond between two people.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Sometimes, I wonder how long I would have gone without losing my virginity if I had really been given the choice. I was raped, and after being raped I decided I needed to have a positive experience with sex, or I might always associate sex with something negative. So, my first time was at 20. But, before then, I was perfectly happy not having sex. I never saw sex as something I needed to do. And, even now, I can go years without sex if I wanted to (my longest "dry spell" was 2.5 years). Sex, to me, is a perk, but not something that I need. I'm perfectly happy having romantic relationships that don't include sex. They just usually do because the person I'm with usually doesn't feel the same.

[DeFrauder]

Sometimes, I wonder how long I would have gone without losing my virginity if I had really been given the choice. I was raped, and after being raped I decided I needed to have a positive experience with sex, or I might always associate sex with something negative. So, my first time was at 20. But, before then, I was perfectly happy not having sex. I never saw sex as something I needed to do. And, even now, I can go years without sex if I wanted to (my longest "dry spell" was 2.5 years). Sex, to me, is a perk, but not something that I need. I'm perfectly happy having romantic relationships that don't include sex. They just usually do because the person I'm with usually doesn't feel the same.

That is a really unfortunate thing to happen. I am sorry to hear that something so terrible happened to you.

I know several single people that go for long dry spells. In their case it seems to be associated with lack of opportunity rather than disinterest. I had some disinterest before I started HRT but now im interested again :-P

I did have a dryish sort of spell out of necessity once. I sustained a fair amount of physical injury during childbirth. I was never the same after that and had to undergo a lot of repair, including a hysterectomy. Sex was quite painful until I was all fixed up. Fortunately my husband prides himself on his ability to resist temptation. He says he could have been a priest :lol:

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

That is a really unfortunate thing to happen. I am sorry to hear that something so terrible happened to you.

I know several single people that go for long dry spells. In their case it seems to be associated with lack of opportunity rather than disinterest. I had some disinterest before I started HRT but now im interested again :-P

I did have a dryish sort of spell out of necessity once. I sustained a fair amount of physical injury during childbirth. I was never the same after that and had to undergo a lot of repair, including a hysterectomy. Sex was quite painful until I was all fixed up. Fortunately my husband prides himself on his ability to resist temptation. He says he could have been a priest :lol:

No need to be sorry. It's part of my past, but I was never really traumatized by it. It's weird, but I felt probably 50 times more violated the two times my car was broken into than I did while I was being raped. Like, even at the time, I was rather disassociated with it. I mean there were still negative connotations with it, but I just was very much emotionally removed from the situation. I'm not entirely sure it was healthy; but it's how I dealt with it at the time, and I've long since moved passed it. I mean, right now, it doesn't actually have any emotional resonance with me. It's a memory I have, but not a memory I live with, if that makes sense.

[DeFrauder]

No need to be sorry. It's part of my past, but I was never really traumatized by it. It's weird, but I felt probably 50 times more violated the two times my car was broken into than I did while I was being raped. Like, even at the time, I was rather disassociated with it. I mean there were still negative connotations with it, but I just was very much emotionally removed from the situation. I'm not entirely sure it was healthy; but it's how I dealt with it at the time, and I've long since moved passed it. I mean, right now, it doesn't actually have any emotional resonance with me. It's a memory I have, but not a memory I live with, if that makes sense.

It makes sense. A lot of people deal with trauma that way. Some even completely block traumatic events out. The kicker is that sometimes the trauma comes back later in life and work needs to be done to mitigate the effects,

I think that MAYBE I was raped once. I am not entirely sure. If it happened it was while I was in the hospital under sedation from surgery. What happened was that I woke up from surgery in a little room. It was so small it was like a closet. Sometimes they stash patients in little holding rooms while the porters push the stretchers to where they need to go. I noticed right away that there was something slimey on my vagina and I felt like I had had sex--meaning I felt that my vagina had been penetrated. It made NO SENSE to me why there was lubricant inside my vagina or why the doctor would have even needed to be anywhere near my vagina at all.

I doubt it was the doctor---if it happened--and something did happen I just do not know what--it was when I was being transported from the OR back to the ward. If this happened, it was obviously not a one off event because I defrauded a porter with my sexy surgical dressings. It was the work of a predator.

That was almost 20 years ago. If it happened today, I would have asked for a rape kit. I am no longer shy about such things. But back then I was mortified to ask the dr or a nurse what was up. I mean--who would believe me?? Plus what if I was wrong? What if there was a perfectly valid reason for why I woke up from surgery with stuff dripping out of me and a feeling of vigorous penetration.

OMG I just realized why I personally have been so triggered by Joshgate. It is the "while they were asleep so they didn't even know or be bothered by it" narrative. Wow. I now understand why I have been so angry. Heh I even now get this stuff coming up later issue.

Thanks The End is Near! Thanks for helping me think about these things. I have had a breakthrough.

[calimojo]

your experience sounds frightening. I don't know if this will give you comfort or not, but often times during surgery, especially a long surgery, a catheter is inserted in the bladder and removed when the surgery is over. This is not as common of a practice that it once was, but it used to be quite common.

I have no idea what kind of surgery you were having, but if they were working in the abdomen or pelvis they often put a catheter in, so that the bladder will be empty and out of the way. If the bladder is full, it makes it harder for the surgeon to work.

If the surgery is long and they know that they will using a lot of IV fluids, they will often put in a catheter since the patient is unable to void while deeply asleep.

When they insert a catheter, they use a lubricant. And, it can be a bit tender after the catheterization. Memory upon waking from anesthesia is not very reliable. I am not saying this to diminish your situation, just that the affect of the anesthesia causes issues, especially with sequencing of time, and sometimes just plain memory loss.

Once, After I had surgery, I remember waking because some crazy lady kept yelling. It was annoying the crap out of me, and I just wanted to yell back and tell her to shut up. As I began to be more awake, I realized that I was the one yelling. It was so odd, because it really felt like someone else was yelling and waking me up, and all along it was me. It was a very weird kind of out of body type thing.

[DeFrauder]

your experience sounds frightening. I don't know if this will give you comfort or not, but often times during surgery, especially a long surgery, a catheter is inserted in the bladder and removed when the surgery is over. This is not as common of a practice that it once was, but it used to be quite common.

I have no idea what kind of surgery you were having, but if they were working in the abdomen or pelvis they often put a catheter in, so that the bladder will be empty and out of the way. If the bladder is full, it makes it harder for the surgeon to work.

If the surgery is long and they know that they will using a lot of IV fluids, they will often put in a catheter since the patient is unable to void while deeply asleep.

When they insert a catheter, they use a lubricant. And, it can be a bit tender after the catheterization. Memory upon waking from anesthesia is not very reliable. I am not saying this to diminish your situation, just that the affect of the anesthesia causes issues, especially with sequencing of time, and sometimes just plain memory loss.

Once, After I had surgery, I remember waking because some crazy lady kept yelling. It was annoying the crap out of me, and I just wanted to yell back and tell her to shut up. As I began to be more awake, I realized that I was the one yelling. It was so odd, because it really felt like someone else was yelling and waking me up, and all along it was me. It was a very weird kind of out of body type thing.

I will never know for sure, but you have provided a good explanation. I had tried to reason it away myself, but Ive always come back to the explanation that I 90% feel is the truth. I can't be 100% sure for all the reasons you bring up, but I am pretty sure something inappropriate happened. I even came up with the idea that someone had accidentally penetrated me with an instrument. That they accidentally did it somehow while transferring me from one bed to another. There was even a "dirty butt plug" rumor going around at the time-that the hospitals were inserting plugs during surgery and not washing them in between and that was what was spreading c difficile. I thought hmm maybe they were doing that to me and slipped by accident. I tried out all kinds of explanations on myself. There just is no adequate explanation for the vaginal penetration.

I had a short cosmetic procedure with a couple tiny incisions not even close to my "private area". I don't think I had full general anesthetic even. It was just day surgery. Just strong sedation so they could get in, cut off what they wanted and sew me back up.

I have had a fair amount of abdominal surgery, though, and have not woken up with a similar experience any of those times. Ive had a bladder lift, hysterectomy, some work on my kidney, near complete reconstruction of my bits. Ive had catheters, too. Nothing like this. My uterus was actually removed vaginally, and I didn't wake up feeling penetrated and covered in slime.

:cry:

I know what you mean with anesthetic though. My husband had a colon test they put him into "twilight" or whatever it is called. He was awake but docile. Not only was he completely dazed the entire day after, but he he couldn't even remember what he was getting done. It was like "you are going to put that where? Why do you want to do that? I don't think I am going to like that. What do you mean you did it already? Are you sure? I am pretty sure I would remember you doing that". It was hilarious.

[VixenToast]

DeFrauder

Have you seen Kill Bill? "Your names Buck, right? And you're here to fuck, right!?" *kills Buck with hospital door*

But no, in all seriousness, that is terrible and predatory and sick.

I, too, have been raped. It was by my boyfriend and anally and was reported. I am like DuggarsTheEndIsNear and find it a memory I have and not one I live with. In other words, I don't let it define me, but I acknowledge it. In fact, my boyfriend and his friends tried to say that since I could talk about it, it wasn't really rape. Needless to say, I feel no shame in speaking about it. My only shame will forever be declining to be a witness. :(

[DeFrauder]

DeFrauder

Have you seen Kill Bill? "Your names Buck, right? And you're here to fuck, right!?" *kills Buck with hospital door*

But no, in all seriousness, that is terrible and predatory and sick.

I, too, have been raped. It was by my boyfriend and anally and was reported. I am like DuggarsTheEndIsNear and find it a memory I have and not one I live with. In other words, I don't let it define me, but I acknowledge it. In fact, my boyfriend and his friends tried to say that since I could talk about it, it wasn't really rape. Needless to say, I feel no shame in speaking about it. My only shame will forever be declining to be a witness. :(

I have seen that movie, but I don't remember the dialogue. I remember her plucking out the eye of the nurse in the sequel (I think its the sequel) and the fight with the Japanese school girl :-P

Not really rape because you can talk about it?? That one is new to me. I thought I had heard it all, but I guess not.

Don't feel shame for not being a witness. Date rape is so hard to prove that it could have ended up in a quagmire of horrible for you if you had participated in a trial. Not being cross examined may have assisted you in a healthy recovery. Obviously it was right for you at the time and that is the most important thing.

People are dicks and they seem to be extra dickey about rape or sexual abuse. The same logic that convinces people that dressing sexy invites rape, somehow convinces people that only attractive people get raped.

I was once in a car accident and my arms were hurt really bad. For some reason the paramedic seemed to be inappropriately touching my breasts more than necessary. I dont know what he was doing, maybe they were just in the way or maybe I was just in shock or something. I just know that I didnt like it. I bitched about it later to my best friend and her response astounded me. Why, she reasoned, would a paramedic feel compelled to touch my breasts? She was confident that with a good job like his he probably didnt need to rely on copping feels. He could do better!

OKay, so it was great to learn my friend didnt think I was attractive enough to attract predatory pervs! :lol: Worse, that she thought predatory behavior was the sole domain of jobless deadbeats that can't get a woman any other way.

So because people have stupid ideas, I don't blame anybody for wanting to avoid a cross examination as a victim of rape. A good criminal defender would try and convince a jury that the orange glow of iodine on my skin, and the sexy missing back of my hospital gown was defrauding the porter---who is a happily married and attractive man that has standards and I am not up to them :lol: :D

But seriously--I feel the same. Its not something that controls my life or defines me. I rarely think of it, but was reminded due to End's post. It happened a long time ago and maybe it didn't happen at all (although I know that it did, but I can embrace some deniability). It hasn't interfered with my sexuality or made any significant impact at all. The only thing that truly bothers me is that I do not know what penetrated me or who. Maybe it is better not knowing.

I am lucky.

I know a woman who was gang raped and she is so fucked up its crazy. In fact if I go through the list of all the women I know, there are a lot of them that have a traumatic sexual assault story. It is amazing how much sexual violence women are suffering.

[VelociRapture]

There is nothing wrong with having just one partner. It is probably ideal. Far more healthy in my opinion than having dozens of partners which seems to be becoming common.

I think the issue is doing what one feels most comfortable with. If a person does not want sex then they should not have it. If they want to have sex, they should--as long as it is with a consenting partner.

There are a lot of people that lead a celibate life--by choice and sometimes not by choice...

But those fundie teens and young adults---their whole life seems to be focused on that magic moment when they FINALLY get to have sex. I think that the purity culture is doing the exact opposite of what people intend. It puts sex on such a high pedestal that it becomes more important than fostering the relationship that is enhanced by sex....or maybe I mean they miss out on the sex that is enhanced by a close relationship. Either way...it is rare to get married to the first person you date. It does happen and sometimes works out perfect...but its still rare.

How many of us are happily married long term to the first person they dated or kissed? Not me. I dated quite a bit until I found the right man and have now been happy for over 20 years.

Present and accounted for (well, almost)! :lol:

I'll be marrying my fiance this November. We've been together for almost eight years now - he was my first boyfriend and we were nineteen when we first got together. I had never even kissed another boy before him! I had some crushes over the years, but nothing that ever led to a relationship.

I know it's not extremely common to be able to say that anymore. For me, it was important that I not jump right into a relationship (casual or serious) with just anyone - I wanted to make sure the person I dated was someone I could see a future with first. I wanted to know that we had similar goals, morals, and interests. It wasn't anything that anyone forced me to do or anything - I just always knew that was the best decision for me and, so far, its worked out pretty well. I guess I kind of merged the idea of courtship with the idea of modern dating a bit. :lol:

Some people feel differently and make different choices. So long as you're staying safe and doing what you feel is best for you, that's all the matters. No one should have the right to judge that or make someone feel guilty for doing what is best for their situation - and that's why I'll always have a tiny bit of pity for Fundie children, regardless of the fact that many grow up to be a complete .

[socalrules]

Of all the things to worry about when it comes to Jana, or any of the other Duggar kids, their sex life really wouldn't be in my top ten of concerns for them. Whether she has one partner, multiple partners or no partners is the least of her problems. The woman can't go to the grocery store alone or decide to cut her hair short because Gothard is against it. She has no education or job skills. She has lived her teenage years and adult life on TV playing the role of oldest daughter in a perfect Christian family. She has no tools to go out into the world and make it on her own. She has been raised to basically be an adult who follows every whim of someone else in authority as if she is a child. If anything, she needs the chance to explore the world and life as a real adult before she explores any relationship. She only knows that a sexual relationship involves marriage where the woman is submissive and the man is an authority from God. I don't think any of the Duggar offspring have the tools for any type of healthy relationship.

[SassyPants]

Of all the things to worry about when it comes to Jana, or any of the other Duggar kids, their sex life really wouldn't be in my top ten of concerns for them. Whether she has one partner, multiple partners or no partners is the least of her problems. The woman can't go to the grocery store alone or decide to cut her hair short because Gothard is against it. She has no education or job skills. She has lived her teenage years and adult life on TV playing the role of oldest daughter in a perfect Christian family. She has no tools to go out into the world and make it on her own. She has been raised to basically be an adult who follows every whim of someone else in authority as if she is a child. If anything, she needs the chance to explore the world and life as a real adult before she explores any relationship. She only knows that a sexual relationship involves marriage where the woman is submissive and the man is an authority from God. I don't think any of the Duggar offspring have the tools for any type of healthy relationship.

Actually, next to JD, IMO, Jana has the most skills that could secure her employment.

She can drive an RV (think bus driver).

She can lay title

She could certainly nanny, work in a daycare, or open her own daycare.

She could probably work as a 911 operator.

Jana has skills. What she lacks is the opportunity to work, because her dad will not allow it.

Most of the other Duggars lack both skill and opportunity.

[Incognito22]

The picture of the "all ages coloring contest" with Jana front and center just made my heart heavy. There are so many wonderful things a 20 yr old can be doing on an idle day, the museums, park, walking through town, people watching( babysitting doesn't count) reading a book in a coffee shop, traveling..... It's one thing to take a day and spend it with the littles but I have a feeling this is a norm for her.

[nst]

The picture of the "all ages coloring contest" with Jana front and center just made my heart heavy. There are so many wonderful things a 20 yr old can be doing on an idle day, the museums, park, walking through town, people watching( babysitting doesn't count) reading a book in a coffee shop, traveling..... It's one thing to take a day and spend it with the littles but I have a feeling this is a norm for her.

omg me to and she is not even 20 she is 25

can you imagine at the age of 25 being forced to do things that children the age of 10 do

it would devaste me - devastes me now sometimes when I don't have my car lol

(only because it's at the shop)

and my question would be to her - why the fuck don't you just go read a book - why must you be treated like a child

I would hate that

[SassyPants]

Jinger and Joy seem to be MIA-

[Incognito22]

They are probably in the prayer closet for coloring out of the lines. Or worse yet, choosing colors that don't draw attention to the characters countenance. Seriously though, hope they are having fun with Amy or something.

[Iamthe20thDuggarKid]

The picture of the "all ages coloring contest" with Jana front and center just made my heart heavy. There are so many wonderful things a 20 yr old can be doing on an idle day, the museums, park, walking through town, people watching( babysitting doesn't count) reading a book in a coffee shop, traveling..... It's one thing to take a day and spend it with the littles but I have a feeling this is a norm for her.

Well adult coloring is supposed to be all the rage these days...

[Mothership]

I love the new adult coloring books-- gardens and medallions- (nothing "adult") why was poor Jana coloring a kids book? And who are those other kids around the table?

ETA where were JB and J'Chelle during this family bonding time?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

omg me to and she is not even 20 she is 25

can you imagine at the age of 25 being forced to do things that children the age of 10 do

it would devaste me - devastes me now sometimes when I don't have my car lol

(only because it's at the shop)

and my question would be to her - why the fuck don't you just go read a book - why must you be treated like a child

I would hate that

What book does she have that she probably hasn't already read cover to cover a million times (assuming she actually even likes to read)? It's not like she can just pop over to the book store or library and pick up any old book she wants, she has to get permission to read it.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Well adult coloring is supposed to be all the rage these days...

Yea but adult coloring book pages look like this, not like children's coloring book pages. Jana was coloring from a coloring book that was intended for 4-7 year olds.

[0 kids n not countin]

Poor Jana, I do feel bad for her. I wish she could "participate in age appropriate activities, or interests of her own".

[IrishCarrie]

Shoot! I just realised that adult colouring books are a thing!!! We have this guy who comes into our workplace around once a month to sell books, all the recent bestsellers, heavily discounted so really good deals. He had some colouring books last month that I flipped through and mentally went 'A kid would have to be Picasso to be able to colour those...'

They were for adults!!!

:o