FJ points and laughs at IBLP basic & advanced seminar texts

[bekahdimples]

First - thankfully - the family I grew up in was not - not even in a remote, secondhand manner - involved in any of the Gothard stuff in any way.

However - I believe I have posted this before - as an adult, I attended a rather mainstream church for about 5 years - where it turned out that the pastor and certain other families were heavily into Gothardism. It was all on the sly (as it is apparent, this on-the-sly thing is how Gothard operates). The name Gothard was never mentioned. I never saw one of the Gothard books. Never. We just knew that certain families took their "vacations" to go to "homeschool conventions". No one else in the church realized (myself included) the source of much teaching from the pulpit. But reading now what was taught in the books makes it clear the actual source of what was taught from the pulpit in that "mainstream" church.

Eventually, it became apparent that the non-IBLP families were not wanted. Long story short - thankfully, myself and my family left (we were actually pushed out). Today, a once thriving church is now really only the pastor and part (even some of his family are gone) of his family and just a couple of other people. The other families that were involved in IBLP now have adult kids - and mostly, those kids have turned into very messed up adults with lives that have many issues.

For all these reasons, I personally have a very difficult time laughing about this stuff. It has caused an incredible and really unbelievable amount of harm to a very large number of people.

Well lets not laugh then but I'd hate to see this thread end- I feel like we should take a look at their educational material.

[halcionne]

Thanks for bumping the thread--it was just the push I needed to tackle page 47, which is a chart and will be a formatting nightmare. But it addresses the four conflicts mentioned earlier, so maybe it'll be worth it.

STEP 3: PURPOSE TO ASK FORGIVENESS

• This is by far the most difficult step. It must be done in an attitude of complete sincerity and genuine repentance.

A. IDENTIFY THE BASIC OFFENSES It is important to distinguish between immediate offenses and basic offenses. They are not always the same. It does little good to ask forgiveness for a small offense when in reality that offense is only a fractional part of a much greater offense.

• In the family conflicts described on page forty-four, the statements by the offending party reveal previous offenses which were brought into the present conflict.

ILLUSTRATIONS (From page 3)* CONFLICT #1

STATEMENT BY OFFENDING PARTY "Well, you can just go back to school where you belong!"

IMMEDIATE REACTION "A few wrong words."

BASIC OFFENSE Wounded pride. Expecting to be served. Failure to "Serve one another in love."

ILLUSTRATIONS CONFLICT #2

STATEMENT BY OFFENDING PARTY "Just who do you think you are, giving me orders?"

IMMEDIATE REACTION "Taking matters into my own hands."

BASIC OFFENSE Harboring resentment since she had to wash floors while her sister was out playing.

ILLUSTRATIONS CONFLICT #3

STATEMENT BY OFFENDING PARTY "Telling me to go do something besides watching T.V."

IMMEDIATE REACTION Hitting the garage door with the basketball.

BASIC OFFENSE Laziness, disrespect, ungratefulness, stubbornness and self-righteousness.

ILLUSTRATIONS CONFLICT #4

STATEMENT BY OFFENDING PARTY "You're ungrateful, unwilling to help around the house, etc., etc.!"

IMMEDIATE REACTION "Saying many things I shouldn't have."

BASIC OFFENSE Ungratefulness and laziness in duties at home.

B. ASK FORGIVENESS FOR BASIC OFFENSES There are several ways to ask forgiveness which are guaranteed not to work--such as, "I was wrong, but you were too;" "If I was wrong, please forgive me;" "I'm sorry;" etc. There is one genuine statement which reflects true sincerity and humility ---

• "God has convicted me of how wrong I have been in (my attitude and actions). I know I have wronged you in this, and I've come to ask, will you forgive me?"

*Page 3 tl;dr: Work through the (bible) text, meditate on the text, discover principles in the text.

[slickcat79]

ILLUSTRATIONS CONFLICT #3

STATEMENT BY OFFENDING PARTY "Telling me to go do something besides watching T.V."

IMMEDIATE REACTION Hitting the garage door with the basketball.

BASIC OFFENSE Laziness, disrespect, ungratefulness, stubbornness and self-righteousness.

Yep, disrespect and ungratefulness on the part of the child. Nothing about the fact that a father shouldn't swear at his children (or other people's children) or threaten them with sticks :roll:

[apple1]

Well lets not laugh then but I'd hate to see this thread end- I feel like we should take a look at their educational material.

Don't worry, I'm not offended if others laugh.

[bekahdimples]

Yep, disrespect and ungratefulness on the part of the child. Nothing about the fact that a father shouldn't swear at his children (or other people's children) or threaten them with sticks :roll:

His immediate reaction was to obey his father! He turned off the t.v. !!

And yes ignoring the child abuse- so the kids think its normal!

I have a feeling this book is only going to get worse.

[Gimme a Free RV]

"Purpose to..."

May I express my sincerest dislike of this Gothardism? I purpose to throat punch a Dugger ever time one of them says that. I even heard Derrick say it once.

[FundieFarmer]

How far does this whole "account for others' sins in your conflict" shit go? Somebody please tell me Josh didn't list his victims' "sins" to downplay his own.

[halcionne]

How far does this whole "account for others' sins in your conflict" shit go? Somebody please tell me Josh didn't list his victims' "sins" to downplay his own.

I know, right? The one where the kid came home expecting lunch and the sibs were all like wtf are you doing here. I don't think hungry kid needs to seek forgiveness there. And basketball kid's dad left me speechless. :pink-shock:

For my part, I don't think the anecdotes are true. They read like invented stories made up to support Gothard's thesis to me. And on that note, I'll post the next bit below.

[halcionne]

Basic, page 48:

THE SOURCE OF DYNAMIC LIVING

THE POWER OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

• The following verses are only a few of those which refer to the imperative of a clear conscience.

A SENSITIVE CONSCIENCE IS THE MARK OF A MATURE CHRISTIAN

"For everyone that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrews 5:13, 14 (See also I Timothy 1:5)

PAUL TESTIFIES TO THE IMPORTANCE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward man." Acts 24:16

"For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward." II Corinthians 1:12

PAUL WARNED TIMOTHY THAT NEXT TO HIS FAITH, A CLEAR CONSCIENCE WAS HIS MOST ESSENTIAL WEAPON

"This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy...that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck."*

PETER EXPLAINS WHY A CLEAR CONSCIENCE IS ESSENTIAL IN ORDER TO WITNESS

"Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." I Peter 3:16

EVEN HEALTH AND PHYSICAL APPEARANCE ARE AFFECTED BY THE LACK OF CLEAR CONSCIENCE

"Happy is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. When I kept silence (in confessing my sin), my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long (the weight of the guilt). For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer."**

*Confession time: I decided to c/p the verses in this post to save myself some typing. Gothard omits words and/or alters punctuation in the verses marked with an asterisk. I c/p'ed from Bible Gateway's KJV translation.

**Bible Gateway used blessed, not happy, and parenthetic comments are Gothard's, not King James's. :penguin-no:

[anjulibai]

Didn't JB and Michelle refer to Josh as having a sensitive conscience when they were excusing his behavior?

[LovelyLuna]

Didn't JB and Michelle refer to Josh as having a sensitive conscience when they were excusing his behavior?

I do believe they did.

[circularlogic]

for once, i decided to read through the entire thread before commenting to get the full breadth of the crazy.

Wow. Just wow. Thank you so much halcionne for doing this. i've wanted to peek inside these books for awhile but to date have found no 'back door' into the videos or text. i'm still trying though. will let you all know when i access the videos!

[halcionne]

Are you guys losing interest in the "clear conscience" topic? Am I updating too often? Not often enough? Page 49 is a graph that I can't come close to reproducing here and it's not particularly entertaining. Next is a lengthy bit (6 pages) with anecdotes, called THE PURPOSE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. We can keep pushing through, abandon this topic, or look at another part of the books and come back to this later. Any opinions?

[bekahdimples]

Are you guys losing interest in the "clear conscience" topic? Am I updating too often? Not often enough? Page 49 is a graph that I can't come close to reproducing here and it's not particularly entertaining. Next is a lengthy bit (6 pages) with anecdotes, called THE PURPOSE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. We can keep pushing through, abandon this topic, or look at another part of the books and come back to this later. Any opinions?

I feel like your posting at a just right speed- enough time to discuss and let it sink in before next page- I like to process one thing at a time so good for me.

And... Interested in how to ask forgiveness / what u just covered...

We can skip if it doesn't seem worth it. All up to you! We should really get you a scanner...

[apandaaries]

Are you guys losing interest in the "clear conscience" topic? Am I updating too often? Not often enough? Page 49 is a graph that I can't come close to reproducing here and it's not particularly entertaining. Next is a lengthy bit (6 pages) with anecdotes, called THE PURPOSE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. We can keep pushing through, abandon this topic, or look at another part of the books and come back to this later. Any opinions?

Not enough for me, but then again, I'm a bit of an addict, I admit. I really love getting to see the actual IBLP materials, so whatever you care to post, I will avidly read.

For your own benefit, I think you should post whatever suits your fancy or interests you most at posting time. I don't know what kind of treasure you have on your hands there, so feel free to share whatever gems you choose.

And many thanks for this project!!

[anjulibai]

I do believe they did.

So, we are really looking at the playbook the Duggars used to deal with Josh's behavior. This is just so horrifying.

[halcionne]

Not enough for me, but then again, I'm a bit of an addict, I admit. I really love getting to see the actual IBLP materials, so whatever you care to post, I will avidly read.

For your own benefit, I think you should post whatever suits your fancy or interests you most at posting time. I don't know what kind of treasure you have on your hands there, so feel free to share whatever gems you choose.

And many thanks for this project!!

I keep saying graph when I mean to say chart. Anyway thanks for the input, everyone. I find the anecdotes so self-serving and artificial they give me the willies. I think I need to post something lulzy for my own sanity, then we'll get back to clear conscience material.

[bekahdimples]

I keep saying graph when I mean to say chart. Anyway thanks for the input, everyone. I find the anecdotes so self-serving and artificial they give me the willies. I think I need to post something lulzy for my own sanity, then we'll get back to clear conscience material.

Have you found anything funny?

You thanked me before for bumping the thread so I thought I'd do it again...

It seems to be a lot of charts... I feel like the way you write them is clear tho.

[halcionne]

Have you found anything funny?

You thanked me before for bumping the thread so I thought I'd do it again...

It seems to be a lot of charts... I feel like the way you write them is clear tho.

Thanks for bumping again!

Sorry for not adding anything lately. We're having a mini heat wave and it got up to 90* inside my poorly insulated apartment yesterday. Another thread on the forum put me in a funk, too, so nothing in the books made me laugh. Excuses, excuses. I'll just pick up where we left off, in a bit.

[Gimme a Free RV]

Thanks for bumping the thread--it was just the push I needed to tackle page 47, which is a chart and will be a formatting nightmare. But it addresses the four conflicts mentioned earlier, so maybe it'll be worth it.

PURPOSE TO ASK FORGIVENESS

This is by far the most difficult step. It must be done in an attitude of complete sincerity and genuine repentance.

There are several ways to ask forgiveness which are guaranteed not to work--such as, "I was wrong, but you were too;" "If I was wrong, please forgive me;" "I'm sorry;" etc.

Hang on a minute!!! :o Didn't Gothard himself say something to this effect when "apologizing" about his actions towards his victims? Maybe someone can look that up. (I'm at work.) His "apology" was a faux apology, at best and a self-serving, skin-saving statement, at worst.

[halcionne]

For a change of pace, here's something on abstinence that touches on the 40/80 day rule from Advanced, page 175:

WHAT ARE GOD'S GUIDELINES FOR TIMES OF ABSTINENCE?

1. During the menstrual cycle
   "But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman (Ezekiel 18:5-6)
   If there is an unusual flow or a need for healing such as chronic yeast infection, then the following should also be observed:
   
   
2. Seven days after menstrual cycle - Leviticus 15:28
   "But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:28)
   Many couples have discovered deeper levels of communication by observing fourteen days of abstinence when needed. There is also benefit in having stronger seed by waiting until the wife's time of ovulation.
   
   
3. 40 days after the birth of a son - Leviticus 12:2-4
   "...If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days..." (Leviticus 12:2-4)
   
   
4. 80 days after the birth of a daughter - Leviticus 12:5
   "But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days" (Leviticus 12:5)

So, he's literally just interpreting old testament laws. I'm underwhelmed. I'm interested in his rationale for choosing to follow this law and not the ones on, say, eating shellfish or wearing poly/cotton blends...

[alba]

For a change of pace, here's something on abstinence that touches on the 40/80 day rule from Advanced, page 175:

So, he's literally just interpreting old testament laws. I'm underwhelmed. I'm interested in his rationale for choosing to follow this law and not the ones on, say, eating shellfish or wearing poly/cotton blends...

Because then fundies would struggle to find cheap, ugly fabric with which to make frumpers.

[lilith]

Do the Duggars circumcise their boys? If they follow those verses it would seem like they would. Is male circumcision common in IFB circles?

[EmiGirl]

Do the Duggars circumcise their boys? If they follow those verses it would seem like they would. Is male circumcision common in IFB circles?

It's common in most of America I believe

[halcionne]

Do the Duggars circumcise their boys? If they follow those verses it would seem like they would. Is male circumcision common in IFB circles?

The vast majority of white Americans circumsized until very recently (probably still do? I don't know anyone with boy children). I think it's a safe bet that they're all cut, even if Gothard didn't recommend it.