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FJ points and laughs at IBLP basic & advanced seminar texts


halcionne

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All right, back to clear conscience. Picking up where we left off on page 50 of Basic (this is pretty long; I'll probably break it up into more manageable chunks):

THE PURPOSE OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE

A. BOLDNESS TO WITNESS

  • At a summer camp, Don, a high school sophomore, was deeply concerned over his inability to tell other of his faith in Christ. Our conversation went as follows:
    "How long has it been since you've been able to witness?"
    Don: "For about a year."
    Can you think of anything that happened a year ago that might have caused your present inability to witness?"
    Don: Well, last year I was on the high school basketball team, and once I let out a string of swear words in the locker room. The fellows were really shocked since I was supposed to be a Christian. Ever since then, I've been ashamed to talk to others about the Lord."
    Don had good reason not to witness! He knew his friends would call him a hypocrite. Notice how God relates a clear conscience to effective witnessing:
    • "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." (I Peter 3:15, 16)

    [*]At that same summer camp, a senior girl revealed the same problem regarding her fear and inability to tell others of Christ at school. When she was asked if she could pinpoint a cause for this, she reported the following situation:

    Jan: "Things were going along just fine until one day in math class. We had a test that day, and my girlfriend let me see some of her answers. I've really felt horrible since, and I know what my girlfriend would say if she heard me telling others I was a Christian. She'd say, 'You big hypocrite!'"

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The vast majority of white Americans circumsized until very recently (probably still do? I don't know anyone with boy children). I think it's a safe bet that they're all cut, even if Gothard didn't recommend it.

It is becoming a controversial topic. You could probably look at almost any birth board and find a big argument about it.

I told my husband that I want him to research circumcision if we have a boy, so we can have a intelligent discussion about whether or not we want to do it. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said he assumed we would just circumcise.

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It is becoming a controversial topic. You could probably look at almost any birth board and find a big argument about it.

I told my husband that I want him to research circumcision if we have a boy, so we can have a intelligent discussion about whether or not we want to do it. He looked at me like I was crazy, and said he assumed we would just circumcise.

Right, but their boys are age 27 down to 11.

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Basic Page 51:

B. FREEDOM TO RESOVLE CONFLICTS

  • Often the lack of a clear conscience may be the onw stumblingblock [sic] to the salvation of others in the family. Such was the case with Tom.
    Tom: "My parents aren't Christians, and they seem to make things as difficult as they can for me. They want nothing to do with church or the Bible."
    "Tom, how important is it to you that your parent become Christians?"
    Tom: "It's very important to me! I really want to see them accept Christ."
    "Then there's something very important you must do."
    Tom: "But there's really not too much I can do. We just don't seem to get along no matter how hard I try."
    "Tom, here's what you can do. Get alone somewhere and carefully write down all the things you have done which cause your parents to get angry with you. Put these under general topics such as laziness, ungratefulness, poor attitudes. Then go to each of them and ask for their forgiveness for these things."
    Tom went home determined to carry this out. Two weeks later I received a note from him. Here is what he wrote:

"I did what you suggested and went to each member of my fmaily and made amends with them. Each one was deeply touched by this--even my younger brother. I've been trying to live up to Christian standards here at home, but I've slipped a couple of times. I have also taken your advice and am memorizing a verse of Scripture each day. My mother is coming to church with me regularly now. Thank God!"

Tom wrote again

"I gust thought I would write and tell you of the latest developments in our family. My mother recently went to talk with our pastor, and she rededicated her life to Christ. Now there are two of us in our family. I'm very thankful to the Lord for answering prayer."

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Basic, pp 51-52:

C. ALERTNESS TO MAKE WISE DECISIONS

  • One rainy night, the president of a lumber company was driving home on a winding forest road. As he rounded one curve, he was startled to see a boy on a bicycle right in his path. He slammed on his brakes to avoid hitting the boy, but on the slippery pavement, he could not stop in time. He heard the quick crunch and thud against the front of his car.
    In that split second, he had to make a decision--a decision which was to influence the rest of his life.
  • He backed up his car, drove around the boy lying on the road, and in a cold sweat stepped on the gas and drove home. The next morning as he was eating breakfast, his wife turned on the radio. At that very moment they were reporting the hit-and-run accident which had occured the night before. In addition to the first car hitting the boy, another car had come and not being able to avoid him, ran over the boy. He was in critical condition in the hospital.
    The man's wife made a comment about how terrible it was that the first driver had not stopped. Her husband nervously agreed. A few moments later, his son came running into the kitchen to report, "Hey Dad, your front headlight is broken!" The father quickly explained, "Yes, I broke it going into the garage last night. I'll have to get it fixed."
    That day at the office he could not concentrate. Finally, at noon, he drove to the police station and explained that he was the one who had run into the boy. He was put into jail.
    It seemed that the entire town was incensed at this accident. The judge found it necessary to make a public example of the seriousness of this crime. The hit-and-run driver was sentenced to twenty years in prison!
    After the trial, he asked the judge, "What would have been the penalty if I had taken the boy to the hospital?"
    The judge assured him, "I don't think there would have been any. It was an accident. You would have done what you could."

THE HIDDEN CAUSE OF A WRONG DECISION

  • A reporter became interested in finding out why a responsible businessman and father would make the wrong decision at the scene of an accident. Upon further inquiry, he learned about the following incident from the man.
    "When I was a boy, my father came home one day with a beautiful pocket watch. I saw him put it in the top drawer of his dresser. One day I wanted to show the watch to the fellows at school. I thought of how important it would make me feel.
    "I didn't think my father would like the idea, so without telling him, I carefully unwrapped it from the napkin around it and slid it into my pocket. I decided I would put it back that night, and he would never know the difference.
    "That day in school I was showing it to the fellows, and one of them wanted to hold it. As he was giving it back, he dropped it. It seemed to break into a thousand tiny pieces. My heart sank. I picked up as many pieces as I could find. That night I wrapped all the pieces in the napkin and put it back into my father's top dresser drawer.
    "A week or so later, my father discovered the broken watch. In a rage, he asked who had done it. I was really afraid, so I told him I didn't know anything about it. He didn't say anything more to me. As I look back, I can see that ever since then, I've run from an accident rather than face the consequences."
  • Many, many decisions in life are influence by the state of our conscience!

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Blehhhhh this is like those terrible forwarded messages I get all the time on whatsapp. So sappy!

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Basic, pp 53-54:

D. POWER TO OVERCOME TEMPTATION

  • A six-year-old girl came to her mother one day and solemnly asked, "If I do something wrong, isn't it enough to ask God to forgive me?" Her mother carefully explained that if she had offended someone else, she should also ask that person to forgive her.
    The little girl turned around and slowly went to her room. A short while later she returned, deep in thought, and asked, "Mommy, what if the person won't forgive me?" Her mother reassured her that if she were truly sorry for what she had done, she would certainly be forgiven.
    Again the little girl turned and walked to her room. About ten minutes later, she returned and slowly explained: "I didn't lie to my grandma, and I didn't lie to my brother, but I lied to you." Her mother asked, "How did you lie to me?" "Three nights ago when I came into your room, you asked me if I had a nightmare because you said I could only sleep with you and Daddy if I had a nightmare. I told you that I did--but I didn't.
    "The next morning when everyone asked me what the nightmare was, I had to make one up." By this time she was in tears, and her eleven-year-old brother walked into the room, wondering what she was crying about.
    After the mother explained, the little girl asked her brother, "Don't you ever lie?" He replied, "Yess. When I was your age, I did." In surprise, she asked, "Haven't you lied since?" His emphatic answer becomes extremely significant in the light of our need to build responses to overcome temptation.
    "No. It's just not worth it! If you lie, you have to go back and tell the truth anyway, and then ask forgiveness, and is just not worth it!"
    THE SECRETS OF A SWINDLER
  • One of the shrewdest "con artists" of our day revealed some of his trade secrets in a book he wrote. In the book he explained how he was able to sell such items as the Brooklyn Bridge, Miami Beach and the Empire State Building to intelligent businessmen. Here is his basic method of operation.
    He would first approach a successful businessman on a small "investment opportunity." This "opportunity" would not take much capital but in a very short time it would pay tremendous returns. For example, the businessman would be invited to invest one-hundred dollars in some product which would be sold for one-thousand dollars in a few weeks.
    As the businessman looked over all the details, it appeared to be a real opportunity--all except for a little "quick dealing" which the con artist was going to do behind the scenes so that they would both "come out ahead." This behind-the-scenes activity was minimized as "only normal in business" and "what everyone else is doing." On the other hand, the nine-hundred dollar profit was emphasized and kept in front of the businessman.
  • When the businessman invested his hundred dollars on the small venture, the con artist knew by experience that he was also hooke for the big venture.
    True to his word, the con artist returned in a few weeks with nine-hundred dollars and triumphantly laid it on the businessman's desk as he told him what a wise investor he was. Then he left.
    A few weeks later, he returned with new enthusiasm. He just found out from reliable sources that a large part of Miami Beach (or something else) was going to be sold at a bargain price. If the businessman would invest one-hundred thousand dollars, he would multiply it to a million in no time!
    The con artist explained that if any of his "customers" balked at this point, he had only to remind them that they were partners and had engaged in a "little infraction of the law" which no one else knew about.

In precisely the same way, Satan uses a defiled conscience to defeat a Christian in ever-larger temptations. Rarely is the Christian aware of the final "price tag" on temporary "pleasures" of sin. The guilt of his transgression becomes Satan's method of blackmail to go deeper and deeper into sin.

  • The Indians applied the principle mentioned in Psalm 32:1-4 of "moisture turning into the drought of summer" in detecting a guilty person among their tribesmen.
    When a crime was committed, they would line up all the suspects. They would then heat a knofe. Each suspect was told to stick out his tongue. The flat side of the knife was put against the tongue for an instant, then taken away. If the Indian were innocent, it would not burn him; but if he were guilty, the knife would burn his tongue.
    The principle was that a guilty person's mouth becomes dry and, therefore, the heat against a dry tongue would burn it. On the other hand, the innocent person's mouthand tongue would be moist and the hot knife would only turn the moisture into steam. The same result occurs when testing a hot iron by first licking one's finger. The heat only singes the water--not the finger.

I know 1981 was a different time, but were people really this gullible?

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It's common in most of America I believe

You are correct

It's typically assumed that you are snipped

Things have been changing.... However...

Out of 72 kids at my preschool about half are boys, and only two kids are not circumcised... And one in British! So... Not a lot of progress.

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Basic Page 51:

:x I love (read: hate) how everything is the kid's fault. Oh, your dad emotionally and physically abuses you? Well, what'd you do to deserve it?! Oh, your parents won't become Christians? What are you doing to screw up your witness?! It's any wonder that we have so many examples of abuse in this community. :angry-banghead:

Basic, pp 53-54:

:roll: Suuuuuuuure. Obviously all the example stories presented are fake, but the only way I can think of this one getting any faker is if you replaced every word with "fake" or variants of it.

Basic, pp 53-54:

So, I looked up the verses cited because that phrasing just seems so odd. I think they may be interpreting the verse a little too literally? Most modern translations (including the New KJV and the Authorized KJV) as well as the Jewish Orthodox Bible phrase it like this "my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer" (NIV). I looked the verse up in a Greek/Hebrew lexicon Bible at it seems like the KJV used is the word for word translation of the verse, but given the amount of translations that contain the other version... :shrug: I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking this.

...of course, fundies are totally not known for taking the Bible too literally. :roll:

Also, I had no idea the rate of circumcision in the US was so high. 77 percent in 2010 :pink-shock:

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Basic, pp 54-55:

E. ABILITY TO BUILD GENUINE FRIENDSHIPS

  • The most basic quality needed for friendships is sincere humility. This is the one quality which is sure to result from gaining a clear conscience.
    At one major point in my life, I made a list of all those who weren't as friendly toward me as they could be. In each case, I recalled that there was something I had done or neglected to do which accounted for their lack of friendliness.
  • I had not gone back to any of them sooner because in almost every case, I felt they had wronged me in more serious ways than I had wronged them. In most cases, I felt they had decided that they were at least 90 per cent wrong.
    When God made it clear to me through His Word and the conviction of His Holy Spirit that I should forgive them, forget about their 90 per cent, and take care of my 10 per cent, I went back to each one and asked for his forgiveness.
    I can honestly say that these are now among my best friends. In fact, several of them are among the greatest supporters of the work in which I am now involved.
    When I purposed to make things right with those seventeen whom I had wronged, there was one I almost did not get on the list. I did not plan to ever see him again; and besides, I did not think I was more than maybe 2 per cent wrong. But I knew he had ill feelings toward me, and I remembered the Scripture,
    One day he stopped at my home to borrow something. Before he left, I had the opportunity to talk with him alone and ask his forgiveness.
    This man became one of my most enthusiastic supporters and through his reports to others, a chain of events occured which later resulted in gifts of over $30,000 being given to the youth work in which I was involved.

    AN UNEXPECTED BONUS OF A CLEAR CONSCIENCE
  • Another illustration of this vital point comes from a high school sophomore named Cal. He asked me if he should go back to the owner of a store where he had once worked. While he was working there, he had taken some money out of the cash register. His question in going back came because he did not have any money to pay back the owner.
    I assured him that God was deeply concerned that he go back as soon as possible and confess what he had done. He could pay part of it now and assure the owner that the total amount would be returned soon.
    One week later, I saw Cal. He was beaming with joy as he exclaimed:
    "I went back to the owner of the store. He was really surprised to see me and especially amazed that I would confess what I had done and offer to pay it back. Not only did he forgive me, he gave me a good-paying job! He said that the courage and honesty I had in coming back to him are the qualities he's looking for in his employees."

How true God is on this point:

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13)*

*Minor punctuation changes, etc, from Bible Gateway

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It's all to over the top, I can't help but laugh. Cal's story reminded me of the old Mormon commercial where the kid sings, "I told the TRUUUUUUTH!"

[bBvideo 560,340:14c4d917]

[/bBvideo]

I never realized that's Alfonso Ribeiro, omg

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Haha, okay, fair enough :)

Still, you'd think it would occur to the guy that the paediatrician probably says things like that to everyone, rather than taking it as evidence of divine favour.

You would be amazed how many people think that comments by strangers are a sign of special qualities in their child. They didn't get the memo about how it's polite to compliment a baby.

I once saw a person online gushing about how they knew their child was gifted because people always commented on her alertness as a baby. I didn't have the heart to tell her that's what people say to babies who aren't very cute, but also don't have much hair and are average sized.

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"I went back to the owner of the store. He was really surprised to see me and especially amazed that I would confess what I had done and offer to pay it back. Not only did he forgive me, he gave me a good-paying job! He said that the courage and honesty I had in coming back to him are the qualities he's looking for in his employees."

Oh please. That is so stupid it's not even funny. How could anyone possibly believe this crap?

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Basic, pp 54-55:


*Cough*bullshit*cough* :roll:

Basic, pp 54-55:

If becoming best friends with people that wronged you is the end result of following this text, they've just ensured that I will never, ever even try it. Seeing this, I'm grateful that I didn't grow up hearing this crap so I know that when people are emotionally abusive you don't have to keep them in your life or be friendly to them or that it's all your fault! :angry-banghead:

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You would be amazed how many people think that comments by strangers are a sign of special qualities in their child. They didn't get the memo about how it's polite to compliment a baby.

I once saw a person online gushing about how they knew their child was gifted because people always commented on her alertness as a baby. I didn't have the heart to tell her that's what people say to babies who aren't very cute, but also don't have much hair and are average sized.

Hahahahaha, that's both funny and kind of sad. But, hey, now I know what to say when my friends have ugly, bald babies :P

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Ohhhhhh, the baloney. Sometimes people don't like you because your personalities don't click. Not everybody needs to be best buddies. As a counselor once told a friend of mine, "20% of people will love you no matter what you do, 20% will hate you no matter what you do, and 60% won't give a rat's @$$."

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Basic, pp 54-55:

*Minor punctuation changes, etc, from Bible Gateway

He wasn't planning on seeing this not-friend again because they were on poor terms, but then the guy just shows up at his house to borrow something? Uh...

I am amazed by how true to life these examples are. IBLP just seems to get human nature, y'know?

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In 2002 it never even occurred to me not to circumcise my son. My husband is, so that's what we did. Two years later my nephew was born on our state's version of medicaid. They don't cover it so he wasn't. When his brother was born they decided not to do it so they would be the same. As a teenager/adult I only ran into one uncircumcised (and I ran into my fair share ;) ) I'm actually surprised it's as low as 77%. The times are changing.

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In 2002 it never even occurred to me not to circumcise my son. My husband is, so that's what we did. Two years later my nephew was born on our state's version of medicaid. They don't cover it so he wasn't. When his brother was born they decided not to do it so they would be the same. As a teenager/adult I only ran into one uncircumcised (and I ran into my fair share ;) ) I'm actually surprised it's as low as 77%. The times are changing.

My husband - 1952 - is not circ'ed. (My guess is that this was a money decision at that time by his parents. They were very poor).

My kids were born in 81 and 83. (We didn't know until they were born that they were girls). We had decided during the pregnancies not to circ if we had boys.

My grandson - born 2013 - is not circ'ed.

The pedi my daughter uses - same pedi I used - says that in our area it's 50/50 circed/non-circed.

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I always find it interesting that something I just assume to be the norm, isn't for everyone. :)

To those in this thread that are posting the NIV for the quoted KJV, Thank You! Word salad indeed. I find KJV to be the best cure for insomnia.

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I showed my cult books to my sister and her boyfriend. BF found a segment that may be good for some laughs, from Advanced, page 165:

Development of an Immoral Woman

INWARD MOTIVATION Admiration of father

VISIBLE RESPONSES Appearance vs. attitudes

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Whose adorning...even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (I Peter 3:3-4)

INWARD MOTIVATION Feelings of inferiority

VISIBLE RESPONSES Conflicts over appearance

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom" (Proverbs 13:10)

INWARD MOTIVATION Desire for acceptance by others

VISIBLE RESPONSES Competition for admiration

RELATED SCRIPTURES "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts" (II Timothy 3:6)

INWARD MOTIVATION Need for security

VISIBLE RESPONSES Rationalization of impurity

RELATED SCRIPTURES "The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it" (Proverbs 30:17)

INWARD MOTIVATION Guilt

VISIBLE RESPONSES Arguments and break-ups

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee" (Proverbs 9:8)

INWARD MOTIVATION Fear of more hurt

VISIBLE RESPONSES Flirtation and unpredictability

RELATED SCRIPTURES For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil" (Proverbs 5:3)

INWARD MOTIVATION Hatred

VISIBLE RESPONSES Revenge and justification

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (II Peter 2:14)

These bible verses aren't relevant to much, from what I can tell, but it doesn't matter because it's all the woman's fault. Of course. And he really butchered one of those verses--the first one.

This passage didn't entertain me at all. :roll:

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To start, I'm not exactly sure what I just read, but here goes:

I really want to hope that by "father" they mean God the Father because it just comes out way too creepy otherwise.

INWARD MOTIVATION Feelings of inferiority

VISIBLE RESPONSES Conflicts over appearance

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom" (Proverbs 13:10)

Inferiority causes conflicts over appearance which is best demonstrated by a verse on pride even though pride is usually connected with an feeling of superiority. Fundie logic sometimes....

INWARD MOTIVATION Need for security

VISIBLE RESPONSES Rationalization of impurity

RELATED SCRIPTURES "The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it" (Proverbs 30:17)

I can't even begin to figure out why that verse is connected with this motivation and response. Although, I can't even figure out how the motivation and response go together.

INWARD MOTIVATION Fear of more hurt

VISIBLE RESPONSES Flirtation and unpredictability

RELATED SCRIPTURES For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil" (Proverbs 5:3)

So a fearful woman is a smooth operator?

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Need for security. She needs to feel safe so she sleeps around maybe? I don't know. The verses make no sense. I need way more context than these things offer, which is probably by design. The passages probably have very little to do with what they are trying to get across.

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Ok, I got bored/bothered enough to find better verses than what they give. Of course with all NIV verses because KJV = :angry-banghead:

INWARD MOTIVATION Admiration of father

VISIBLE RESPONSES Appearance vs. attitudes

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Whose adorning...even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" (I Peter 3:3-4)

This verse isn’t actually that bad if only they didn’t snip part of it and give it in the KJV version. Compare with the NIV:

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.

INWARD MOTIVATION Feelings of inferiority

VISIBLE RESPONSES Conflicts over appearance

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom" (Proverbs 13:10)

Let’s try Proverbs 31:30 instead: Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

1 Samuel 16:7 was also a contender but that’s directed towards a man!

INWARD MOTIVATION Desire for acceptance by others

VISIBLE RESPONSES Competition for admiration

RELATED SCRIPTURES "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts" (II Timothy 3:6)

Galatians 1:10: Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

INWARD MOTIVATION Need for security

VISIBLE RESPONSES Rationalization of impurity

RELATED SCRIPTURES "The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it" (Proverbs 30:17)

1 Corinthians 5:11: But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolateror slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

INWARD MOTIVATION Guilt

VISIBLE RESPONSES Arguments and break-ups

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee" (Proverbs 9:8)

James 4:1: What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

INWARD MOTIVATION Fear of more hurt

VISIBLE RESPONSES Flirtation and unpredictability

RELATED SCRIPTURES For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil" (Proverbs 5:3)

1 John 4:18: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

INWARD MOTIVATION Hatred

VISIBLE RESPONSES Revenge and justification

RELATED SCRIPTURES "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (II Peter 2:14)

Proverbs 10:12: Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.

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