Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[nelliebelle1197]

Are there any news articles or blogs about the strep case? I also wonder if there were prior complaints.

Jill is there, very pregnant in a March 10 post

facebook.com/pages/A-Mommys-Butterfly-Midwifery/155580851151697

eta - I just cant believe that a single incidence would have this effect when Brandi Wood (of the "carri is having twins) rabbithole/tragedy is still happily practicing and that baby died.

home4birth.com

Oh, Buzzard, I saw this and had a brief flash where I hoped this was Carri Me Away's midwife, until the location hit me.

[halcionne]

I just finished the video August provided about real, skilled midwives. Venessa Giron is...not at that level. :angry-banghead:

[artdecades]

Thanks for the link--I will check it out.

Jill's birth story was in People, (scans here): viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25642&start=120#p916532 and was discussed throughout that thread.

ETA link

OK, what I am about to say may be verging into "the dillards sacrificed their baby to satan" conspiracy theory territory but here goes. Jill specifically says she went to her chiropractor when she first went into labor. Someone else in this thread mentioned she worked in a chiropractic office and I found this rogerschiropracticclinic.com/venessa/ (she's a zumba instructor? sure, jan). Anyway, I wonder if Jill was still using her services despite her losing her license, and that is why Jill went to the "chiropractor" when she started labor. She knew that Venessa couldn't practice so she pretended to use other midwives because she knew Venessa could get in trouble.

[grandmadugger]

Well, don't the Duggars live mere miles from both OK and MO?

It's 45 minutes to the MO border but farther to an actual town of any size. Branson is about 2 hours from them. It's about 30 minutes to the OK border. Probably about an hour to a real town too.

[grandmadugger]

OK, what I am about to say may be verging into "the dillards sacrificed their baby to satan" conspiracy theory territory but here goes. Jill specifically says she went to her chiropractor when she first went into labor. Someone else in this thread mentioned she worked in a chiropractic office and I found this rogerschiropracticclinic.com/venessa/ (she's a zumba instructor? sure, jan). Anyway, I wonder if Jill was still using her services despite her losing her license, and that is why Jill went to the "chiropractor" when she started labor. She knew that Venessa couldn't practice so she pretended to use other midwives because she knew Venessa could get in trouble.

Venessa not being able to practice has just happened in the last few weeks. She would have been good to go when Jill went to have her exam with Mrs. Query.

[Shirley Blest]

I am going to tell a story here.

I started into nursing, back in 2001, with the goals of becoming a CNM. That was my dream! Fast forward to 2010...I graduated from LPN school in 2001 and worked and went back to RN school and got my first RN job in L&D! I was elated! The second night in L&D, we had a laboring mom who had been laboring all day. It was around 10pm and we went to lunch (my preceptor and I) as they were readying the mom for a c-section. I was working in the nursery that night.

So baby comes in...big and pink but in distress. We called to have him transferred to UK medical center. After all was said and done, baby had a 6 minute decel in utero around 12pm...the CNM opted not to section at that time. The next morning, the nicu from UK called the mother and told her her child likely had Cerebral Palsy.

I was devastated. And right then I decided that I never wanted to be the reason a child was injured. I quit 2 weeks later. It scared me that bad.

[Shirley Blest]

My point with that story is that...with babies...things can go to shit quick (I've seen this first hand in surgery) and you want someone who is competent and has experience under their belts.

I wouldn't let any of the Duggars or that idiot lay midwife deliver my cats litter...nevertheless my kid!!!

[feministxtian]

A CNM in a military hospital was responsible for the death of my son. I was 29 weeks and went for a checkup. I had some stuff going on that she dismissed as "round ligament" pain. It wasn't that, I was in labor! Went to the hospital that night and delivered a preemie. IF the dumb bitch had taken me seriously, she would have admitted me right there and then. I couldn't sue...military dependents can't sue for medical malpractice. My son died 11 days after his birth due to a grade 4 bilateral brain hemorrhage.

Next pregnancy, I had to battle to see a regular OB/GYN in the military hospital. Fortunately I got labeled "high risk" and saw the OB/GYNs exclusively.

That soured me on any sort of midwife. Give me the best trained medical staff possible.

[SoybeanQueen]

What is it with telling women it's round ligament pain? That's what they told me when I went to the ER while pregnant. Mine was actually appendicitis, thankfully with a good outcome for both of us, but I had to go to a different hospital to be taken seriously.

The midwife who delivered that baby was a cnm, supervised by an ob-gyn, working in a freestanding birth center. I think, just like with doctors and other health care workers, there are good and bad midwives. The hard part is figuring out which is which.

[carebaer]

I do not know the licensing laws in AK-but in AZ a LM can not prescribe any type of drugs that require an DEA number, which none of them have. IV antibiotics require the number, also they are not allow to start an IV, this is a national guideline.

Would it be possible for a mom to have a picc line and either the mom or someone else to hang antibiotics prescribed by a doctor? Obviously, you'd have to find a doctor willing to agree to that prescription which may or may not be possible. But my husband was once sent home with a picc line after hospitalization. The original plan was for a nurse to come once a day to do the antibiotics but his insurance denied that coverage so plan B was for the nurses to train us how to administer them ourselves. So it at least seems possible that a mom could do her own IV antibiotics if she was determined and found the right doctor.

[FundieFarmer]

A CNM in a military hospital was responsible for the death of my son. I was 29 weeks and went for a checkup. I had some stuff going on that she dismissed as "round ligament" pain. It wasn't that, I was in labor! Went to the hospital that night and delivered a preemie. IF the dumb bitch had taken me seriously, she would have admitted me right there and then. I couldn't sue...military dependents can't sue for medical malpractice. My son died 11 days after his birth due to a grade 4 bilateral brain hemorrhage.

Next pregnancy, I had to battle to see a regular OB/GYN in the military hospital. Fortunately I got labeled "high risk" and saw the OB/GYNs exclusively.

That soured me on any sort of midwife. Give me the best trained medical staff possible.

I'm so sorry for your loss, feministxtian.

[PrairieGirl]

A CNM in a military hospital was responsible for the death of my son. I was 29 weeks and went for a checkup. I had some stuff going on that she dismissed as "round ligament" pain. It wasn't that, I was in labor! Went to the hospital that night and delivered a preemie. IF the dumb bitch had taken me seriously, she would have admitted me right there and then. I couldn't sue...military dependents can't sue for medical malpractice. My son died 11 days after his birth due to a grade 4 bilateral brain hemorrhage.

Next pregnancy, I had to battle to see a regular OB/GYN in the military hospital. Fortunately I got labeled "high risk" and saw the OB/GYNs exclusively.

That soured me on any sort of midwife. Give me the best trained medical staff possible.

I am so sorry.

[PennySycamore]

{{{feministxtian}}}

I am so sorry for the loss of your son.

[August]

Halcionne, People was where I saw her birth story, but it doesn't make sense. You can't discover someone's GBS+ after their water breaks, it takes longer than that for the test to come back from the lab. They would have known that weeks before and had a plan to give abx as soon as she ewet into labor. There's no way she was laboring with a midwife and then all of a sudden in the hospital the baby had turned. I mean, yes, very occasionally it happens (but with no waters left?), but midwives fucking rock at feeling the baby's position with their hands and their doppler (mine would even whip out the horn thing because you can only hear the baby's heart from the exact right spot with it, so it confirms your postion). She'd self test each visit, too, by feeling the baby and then aiming exactly for the heart with the doppler.

I don't think CNMs are allowed to attend homebirths due to the nature of it being at home and them having nursing licenses. Where my kids were born, CNMs couldn't attend homebirths. My LM was perfectly fine and has a decades-long track record and has mentored under Ina May Gaskin. I think LMs get a lot of shit they shouldn't, especially when an outcome could have been different if only the mother had decided different. Not to say there aren't some bad midwives. One of my best friends had a roommate until last week who is a midwife, and to be frank, the woman belongs nowhere near children, and I'm afraid even her own son's going to die before 5.

But as far as Vanessa, if she lost her license entirely, there's something more than mom has GBS and refused meds. Unless it was something really bad, like telling the mom an essential oil is the same thing as an antibiotic, then I doubt this was Vanessa's 1st run-in with trouble.

Jill and Jana being suspended means something. Whatever Vanessa was doing is questionable enough that the state questions if those girls, and other apprentices, were learning dangerous stuff. They can probably reapply for permits under somebody else. I can't see them being permanently banned because of somebody else.

They were being trained as LMs, they were by definition being taught dangerous stuff. For example, to deliver a baby without pitocin on hand is dangerous (PPH).

And yes, CNMs do homebirths. But they need an agreeable backup. If their backup won't agree to homebirths they can't do them.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

So this must be the reason that Venessa was not Jill's MW-

I had wondered why Jill was using someone else for her prenatal care. Now I know why.

Also, if her license was revoked in Feb of 2014, this is likely another reason why Jill and Jana were no longer in training in early 2014...too bad the Duggars can never be honest about anything.

If they were honest people might see that all is not perfect in Gothard's medical teaching....

[halcionne]

Halcionne, People was where I saw her birth story, but it doesn't make sense. You can't discover someone's GBS+ after their water breaks, it takes longer than that for the test to come back from the lab. They would have known that weeks before and had a plan to give abx as soon as she ewet into labor. There's no way she was laboring with a midwife and then all of a sudden in the hospital the baby had turned. I mean, yes, very occasionally it happens (but with no waters left?), but midwives fucking rock at feeling the baby's position with their hands and their doppler (mine would even whip out the horn thing because you can only hear the baby's heart from the exact right spot with it, so it confirms your postion). She'd self test each visit, too, by feeling the baby and then aiming exactly for the heart with the doppler.

<>

They were being trained as LMs, they were by definition being taught dangerous stuff. For example, to deliver a baby without pitocin on hand is dangerous (PPH).

And yes, CNMs do homebirths. But they need an agreeable backup. If their backup won't agree to homebirths they can't do them.

Right. I should've said Jill's "birth story," such as it is, is in People. I'm glad there are folks here who know enough to find everything that was suspicious about that story, because I'm certainly not. I was alarmed by all of the nonessential activities they did after her water broke, and not telling anyone her water broke; I didn't recognize the many many other problems with the People account until they were discussed here. :clap:

[FakePigtails]

Right. I should've said Jill's "birth story," such as it is, is in People. I'm glad there are folks here who know enough to find everything that was suspicious about that story, because I'm certainly not. I was alarmed by all of the nonessential activities they did after her water broke, and not telling anyone her water broke; I didn't recognize the many many other problems with the People account until they were discussed here. :clap:

One thing I wondered there was that people were saying the baby wouldn't have flipped that late in labor, thus the midwife may have been trying to do a breech home birth, but the story also said that Jill was offered pitocin in the hospital. But wouldn't they not offer that if the baby wasn't in the right position, or do they offer it and hope that the baby will flip? I just don't know enough about the circumstances where pitocin gets used.

As a sidenote, in the other thread there was defense of Jill because she chose to go to the hospital which yeah, that was smart, but it sure sounded like once she got there she refused recommendations from the doctors and for a long time too so I have a hard time giving her more than minimal credit for that, especially after her odd choices after her water broke.

I hope the birth episode next week clears some of this up (not that I'm holding out too much hope for that).

[chaotic life]

The professional organization for CNMs officially supports a mother's right to choose homebirth in low risk pregnancies. Whether CNMs can attend homebirths depends on their state, whether their practice rights are as independent practitioners of not would determine whether a collaborating physician has any say in her decision in the first place, and whether her malpractice insurance allows it. Whether CNMs will attend homebirths will be part whether they legally can in an individual state and whether the individual chooses to do so within their own practice. In states where CNMs have full independent practice rights, their practice is not dictated by a physician at all. But, a properly trained CNM is not going to do a homebirth on a high risk pregnancy. Just like every professional, there are always good and bad individuals.

[chaotic life]

And just to demonstrate how wildly laws can vary from state to state. I know CNM practice rights in a handful of states off the top of my head. AL requires a collaborating physician on file, a list of protocols and expressly forbids CNMs from actually catching babies in the state. NY gives independent practice and no requirement for a collaborating for CNMs but outlines parameters of what a CNM is legally allowed to treat or not. Oregon, iirc, gives full independent practice rights to CNMs just as they do NPs. If the CNM wording is the same as the NP wording, it simply states they are legal providers authorized to practice to the full extent of their training.

[SassyPants]

One thing I wondered there was that people were saying the baby wouldn't have flipped that late in labor, thus the midwife may have been trying to do a breech home birth, but the story also said that Jill was offered pitocin in the hospital. But wouldn't they not offer that if the baby wasn't in the right position, or do they offer it and hope that the baby will flip? I just don't know enough about the circumstances where pitocin gets used.

As a sidenote, in the other thread there was defense of Jill because she chose to go to the hospital which yeah, that was smart, but it sure sounded like once she got there she refused recommendations from the doctors and for a long time too so I have a hard time giving her more than minimal credit for that, especially after her odd choices after her water broke.

I hope the birth episode next week clears some of this up (not that I'm holding out too much hope for that).

No, I cannot imagine starting Pit on a woman with Jill's purported situation and fetal presention- I think The Dillards are not being honest about the situation.

I can't imagine a baby like that flipping last minute and NO ONE noticing.

And why would you go to a hospital in her purported situation (I think they are lying about the situation) and REFUSE treatments offered- may as well have stayed home. Again, I think the Dillards are lying. I think Jill got tired and went to the hospital get to get pain relief and ended up with a Csection for a multitude of reasons.

[halcionne]

I just reread the People article. The only 'medical professional' named in the article was a student midwife, Rachel Goad. No midwife or doctor was named, that I can see. I tried to read it very carefully, but it's in my nature to skim, so I may have missed it. I didn't even see the name of the author anywhere, which says something about my attention to detail, or possibly about the quality of the magazine and its writers.

We know Jill's doctor, once admitted, was Dr. Hill*, and we know he worked with Venessa Giron. I have seen his name in context with other area midwives, too, but I don't remember who off the top of my head. Point being that maybe Venessa was secretly involved, like a previous poster suggests. Or that the People writer and their editor are truly bad at their jobs.

*Dr. Hill is another figure who may or may not be worth looking into. He was involved in a love triangle that brought the police to the hospital parking lot (I can dig the article up if anyone wants), which is juicy, but probably not relevant to this thread. :shock:

[lascuba]

OK, what I am about to say may be verging into "the dillards sacrificed their baby to satan" conspiracy theory territory but here goes. Jill specifically says she went to her chiropractor when she first went into labor. Someone else in this thread mentioned she worked in a chiropractic office and I found this rogerschiropracticclinic.com/venessa/ (she's a zumba instructor? sure, jan). Anyway, I wonder if Jill was still using her services despite her losing her license, and that is why Jill went to the "chiropractor" when she started labor. She knew that Venessa couldn't practice so she pretended to use other midwives because she knew Venessa could get in trouble.

That's actually a very real possibility. Plenty of women hung up on homebirth are stupidly loyal to even the most dangerous midwives. There's this midwife in Australia who's left a string of dead babies in her wake, and yet she still gets a ton of support, even from the parents who lost their babies! In Jill's case, since Venessa only lost her license recently, she might have been seeing her secretly because she wanted to avoid the bad publicity of a seeing a midwife who was being investigated for negligence.

[countressrascal]

Would it be possible for a mom to have a picc line and either the mom or someone else to hang antibiotics prescribed by a doctor? Obviously, you'd have to find a doctor willing to agree to that prescription which may or may not be possible. But my husband was once sent home with a picc line after hospitalization. The original plan was for a nurse to come once a day to do the antibiotics but his insurance denied that coverage so plan B was for the nurses to train us how to administer them ourselves. So it at least seems possible that a mom could do her own IV antibiotics if she was determined and found the right doctor.

Yes, it happens all the time however

[OkToBeTakei]

Midwife equals a degree for which you must have the suitable academic entry requirements of the University applied to.

Academic degree and professional qualification given on completion of study/practice.Study is full-time.

Member of professional body on completion.

That is a midwife.

Anybody else is just a pal holding your hand.

[Jana814]

Thanks for the info everyone. I learn so much from this message board.