Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[August]

I don't know the protocols for vaginal breech, but I do know that before they started my pit they did a three second u/s to make absolutely sure the baby was head down. But, I was on the side of c-section for breech.

[Cassia]

I just reread the People article. The only 'medical professional' named in the article was a student midwife, Rachel Goad. No midwife or doctor was named, that I can see. I tried to read it very carefully, but it's in my nature to skim, so I may have missed it. I didn't even see the name of the author anywhere, which says something about my attention to detail, or possibly about the quality of the magazine and its writers.

We know Jill's doctor, once admitted, was Dr. Hill*, and we know he worked with Venessa Giron. I have seen his name in context with other area midwives, too, but I don't remember who off the top of my head. Point being that maybe Venessa was secretly involved, like a previous poster suggests. Or that the People writer and their editor are truly bad at their jobs.

*Dr. Hill is another figure who may or may not be worth looking into. He was involved in a love triangle that brought the police to the hospital parking lot (I can dig the article up if anyone wants), which is juicy, but probably not relevant to this thread. :shock:

Since first reading that article, I've been under the impression that Jill did not have an actual midwife with her at home, just the student midwife listed above. After all, the only people mentioned as being there were Rachel Goad, Michelle, and Jana.

My opinion of Jill has been steadily waning over the past month, but if she seriously attempted a home birth with only a student midwife then she's dumber than I ever could have imagine.

It makes (a tiny bit) more sense if she was secretly seeing Venessa as her "real" midwife and choose not to name her because of everything going down with her licence.

I'm having visions of Mackenzie's birth, when Josh and Anna opted to have their DOULA act as their midwife, last minute.

I'm holding onto my theory that Jill and Derick wanted her to drop that kid on their 2.5 mile hike, so that they could have an unassisted, wild birth story to crow about from the rooftops.

[apandaaries]

I just reread the People article. The only 'medical professional' named in the article was a student midwife, Rachel Goad. No midwife or doctor was named, that I can see. I tried to read it very carefully, but it's in my nature to skim, so I may have missed it. I didn't even see the name of the author anywhere, which says something about my attention to detail, or possibly about the quality of the magazine and its writers.

We know Jill's doctor, once admitted, was Dr. Hill*, and we know he worked with Venessa Giron. I have seen his name in context with other area midwives, too, but I don't remember who off the top of my head. Point being that maybe Venessa was secretly involved, like a previous poster suggests. Or that the People writer and their editor are truly bad at their jobs.

*Dr. Hill is another figure who may or may not be worth looking into. He was involved in a love triangle that brought the police to the hospital parking lot (I can dig the article up if anyone wants), which is juicy, but probably not relevant to this thread. :shock:

I'm totally interested in learning more about Dr. Hill, especially if it's scandalous. :)

[grandmadugger]

There's so much about Jill's birth story that doesn't make sense to me. The first is when her water broke. No one will convince me her water broke when it did unless there is video proof and one of the strips that show it was actually her water and not pee.

I'm also not reading anything into who was or wasn't listed in the People article. Everyone involved would have had to sign a waiver. I'm guessing most didn't want to be in People magazine.

[halcionne]

I'm totally interested in learning more about Dr. Hill, especially if it's scandalous. :)

FJer southernfriedwriter found this: http://www.siloamconnection.com/areanew ... f-the-year

Newspaper article courtesy of FJer southernfriedwriter, from the dilly dally threads, here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25573&p=915139#p915149 (physician of the year link is on that page, too)

I wish I could remember where I saw evidence that Dr. Chad Hill is Venessa's attending physician, but I don't. It was probably on one of her fb pages, Venessa Giron's internet presence is pretty thin outside of Facebook. I don't recall seeing any other doctors mentioned, wherever it was.

[grandmadugger]

FJer southernfriedwriter found this: http://www.siloamconnection.com/areanew ... f-the-year

Newspaper article courtesy of FJer southernfriedwriter, from the dilly dally threads, here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25573&p=915139#p915149 (physician of the year link is on that page, too)

I wish I could remember where I saw evidence that Dr. Chad Hill is Venessa's attending physician, but I don't. It was probably on one of her fb pages, Venessa Giron's internet presence is pretty thin outside of Facebook. I don't recall seeing any other doctors mentioned, wherever it was.

September of 2014

Please hold little Ada Rose in your heart and prayers.

She was born at 8:18 am at 31 weeks and weighs 3 lb 13oz 17" long! We are so thankful for Dr Hill and Siloam staff who were amazing and so good to our mama !!! Mom did an amazing job and Ada is strong and thriving!

[lovemygsp]

Well the dr/midwife connection certainly explains why Jill went to a hospital far away without a good nicu(after seeing meconium).

[Evangeline]

If they were honest people might see that all is not perfect in Gothard's medical teaching....

If someone wouldn't mind explaining, what are the supposed benefits of homebirth, according to Gothard?

[countressrascal]

If someone wouldn't mind explaining, what are the supposed benefits of homebirth, according to Gothard?

I don't know anything about Gothard and why his followers hold hard and fast to home birth. I give you some insight regarding why fundies prefer home birth-medical insurance, home births are less expensive than hospital for a normal vaginal birth also the fear of an un necessary C-Section and that their tubes will be tied. FYI once they are an emergency transfer the bills sky rockets. Plus that someone other their husband will see their lady parts. I believe the real reason is that a majority of them have been taught that sex is bad, your body is the temple of God and they are uncomfortable with their sexuality,that they have the same reaction that a rape victim has to any type of vaginal exam, also they can not communicate what is really going on. Right now I am working on a course to help LM improve their screening skills, which is needed.

[linnea27]

I don't know anything about Gothard and why his followers hold hard and fast to home birth. I give you some insight regarding why fundies prefer home birth-medical insurance, home births are less expensive than hospital for a normal vaginal birth also the fear of an un necessary C-Section and that their tubes will be tied. FYI once they are an emergency transfer the bills sky rockets. Plus that someone other their husband will see their lady parts. I believe the real reason is that a majority of them have been taught that sex is bad, your body is the temple of God and they are uncomfortable with their sexuality,that they have the same reaction that a rape victim has to any type of vaginal exam, also they can not communicate what is really going on. Right now I am working on a course to help LM improve their screening skills, which is needed.

I think there is a "trust god"/"god's design" factor, too. Prayer is all you need, y'all.

[grandmadugger]

I think there is a "trust god"/"god's design" factor, too. Prayer is all you need, y'all.

I don't think any of them choose homebirth for the "it's better for mom and baby to be in a relaxed environment" etc reasons we hear from most "crunchy" people. Though the Bates use a hospital but that's another story.

[iknowright]

I don't think any of them choose homebirth for the "it's better for mom and baby to be in a relaxed environment" etc reasons we hear from most "crunchy" people. Though the Bates use a hospital but that's another story.

There are fundies who don't follow Gothard. Some of the women have real jobs and will seek medical care, but for the Gothard fundies, homebirth is the pinnacle of their childbearing crown.

First, non-medical midwives are one of the only Gothard "approved" jobs a female can hold ( I believe other acceptable jobs are nannies, housekeepers, and other domestic type jobs). So, having a home birth means the mom and family are utilizing an approved and acceptable Gothard midwife.

Second, women's bodies are uber important to Gothard. He gives instructions on everything from hair styles (long, waves - not straight and not too curly are considered the most godly), to breastfeeding, to rules of intercourse after childbirth, to detailed styles of skirts (like lace, pleats, length), collars on shirts...blah blah blah.

Thirdly, Gothard seems to think he is part physician. Maybe someone can jar my memory, but I believe he and some quack had some literature out there about how almost all diseases and sickness are caused by lack of faith or some sin.

Lastly, not all homebirthers are Gothardites or fundies, but a big draw for them to homebirth is that it is simply one less place for the evil medical companies or government to be involved with control over them and their children's bodies. They eat up the campaign of misinformation about immunizations, hospitals, physicians, epidurals, C-sections, and basically choose homebirth out of fear.

I really think that both Michelle Duggar and Kelly Bates had some hospital births ONLY because it was the only way they could deliver for that particular pregnancy. With their advanced maternal ages, subsequent close pregnancies one right after the other and sheer number of pregnancies, delivering any other way became impossible.

[halcionne]

There are fundies who don't follow Gothard. Some of the women have real jobs and will seek medical care, but for the Gothard fundies, homebirth is the pinnacle of their childbearing crown.

First, non-medical midwives are one of the only Gothard "approved" jobs a female can hold ( I believe other acceptable jobs are nannies, housekeepers, and other domestic type jobs). So, having a home birth means the mom and family are utilizing an approved and acceptable Gothard midwife.

Second, women's bodies are uber important to Gothard. He gives instructions on everything from hair styles (long, waves - not straight and not too curly are considered the most godly), to breastfeeding, to rules of intercourse after childbirth, to detailed styles of skirts (like lace, pleats, length), collars on shirts...blah blah blah.

Thirdly, Gothard seems to think he is part physician. Maybe someone can jar my memory, but I believe he and some quack had some literature out there about how almost all diseases and sickness are caused by lack of faith or some sin.

Lastly, not all homebirthers are Gothardites or fundies, but a big draw for them to homebirth is that it is simply one less place for the evil medical companies or government to be involved with control over them and their children's bodies. They eat up the campaign of misinformation about immunizations, hospitals, physicians, epidurals, C-sections, and basically choose homebirth out of fear.

I really think that both Michelle Duggar and Kelly Bates had some hospital births ONLY because it was the only way they could deliver for that particular pregnancy. With their advanced maternal ages, subsequent close pregnancies one right after the other and sheer number of pregnancies, delivering any other way became impossible.

Just to complicate things further, not all ATI families give birth at home; Julie Mueller Knox had a baby on April 9--here is a pic of the baby with an auntie where you can see he was born in a hospital or hospital-type setting. More pics, which include glimpses of a nurses' station, at the Mueller blog: muellermice.blogspot.com/2015/04/a-new-arrival.html.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure we know enough about the Knoxes to assume they're still in ATI, however. They live in Iowa and he's a piano tuner, iirc. But the Muellers have made some pretty stellar ATI pairings, so I expect that Julie and Brian are toeing the line.

[maple802]

I think most, if not all, of the Mueller grandchildren were born in hospitals based on the pictures that they've posted on their blog over the past few years.

[mountfirefly]

So, this is a comment on the post Vanessa made about the meeting with the state "not going well" last June.

"So, it was over the strep B? I don't think it has so much to do with a mother needing to be on BC or you shaking anyone. We women are in charge of our bodies. Strep B is always a risk, no matter where you have the baby. She well could have had the baby in the car without anyone nearby, before anything could have been done. Don't take this personally, and neither should her mom. There is no blame to be had. Tragic things happen, we are human and it is part of nature. You are so far from negligent that it's not even funny and those people pointing fingers are just being assholes. Really. Dry your tears and know that I love you, and I'm in good company because a TON of other people do too and are confident in your abilities and care."

So.... I really want to know... SHAKING anyone?

[iknowright]

Just to complicate things further, not all ATI families give birth at home; Julie Mueller Knox had a baby on April 9--here is a pic of the baby with an auntie where you can see he was born in a hospital or hospital-type setting. More pics, which include glimpses of a nurses' station, at the Mueller blog: muellermice.blogspot.com/2015/04/a-new-arrival.html.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure we know enough about the Knoxes to assume they're still in ATI, however. They live in Iowa and he's a piano tuner, iirc. But the Muellers have made some pretty stellar ATI pairings, so I expect that Julie and Brian are toeing the line.

I have no idea about the Muellers. I am not saying that Gothardites NEVER use hospitals for childbirth...I'm saying it isn't the most favored way for them. It is usually a last resort measure. The distrust of modern medicine is high with extremists. Now I think I'm sounding snarky but I'm trying to explain my take on this and it is coming out sounding snarky. Sorry. I don't mean to be.

[FundieFarmer]

So, this is a comment on the post Vanessa made about the meeting with the state "not going well" last June.

"So, it was over the strep B? I don't think it has so much to do with a mother needing to be on BC or you shaking anyone. We women are in charge of our bodies. Strep B is always a risk, no matter where you have the baby. She well could have had the baby in the car without anyone nearby, before anything could have been done. Don't take this personally, and neither should her mom. There is no blame to be had. Tragic things happen, we are human and it is part of nature. You are so far from negligent that it's not even funny and those people pointing fingers are just being assholes. Really. Dry your tears and know that I love you, and I'm in good company because a TON of other people do too and are confident in your abilities and care."

So.... I really want to know... SHAKING anyone?

Not the child, I should hope.

[16strong]

Well the dr/midwife connection certainly explains why Jill went to a hospital far away without a good nicu(after seeing meconium).

Trying not to yell here ...so what all of this is implying is that the Duggars would rather the mother and/or baby die than risk being connected to a doctor with a controversial personal life? Are we really talking about that level of disregard for human life? :pink-shock:

Sorry, but I'd take a Bill Clinton type any day if it meant saving my life and my baby's. Maybe that makes ME the pro-life one. ;)

[halcionne]

I have no idea about the Muellers. I am not saying that Gothardites NEVER use hospitals for childbirth...I'm saying it isn't the most favored way for them. It is usually a last resort measure. The distrust of modern medicine is high with extremists. Now I think I'm sounding snarky but I'm trying to explain my take on this and it is coming out sounding snarky. Sorry. I don't mean to be.

I didn't find your comment snarky, and if it had been snarky, that's okay too. :) I agree 100% with the bolded, but at the same time, we know there are ATI/IBLP people who wear pants, and I suppose there are plenty of ATI folks who prefer to give birth in a hospital. Assuming they can afford it and they haven't gone too far off the fundie deep end. Fundie fundies? :lol: The Muellers look like a nice, happy, financially comfortable family, which troubles me because they're hiding their cult ties pretty well. But that's another topic! ;)

[halcionne]

Trying not to yell here ...so what all of this is implying is that the Duggars would rather the mother and/or baby die than risk being connected to a doctor with a controversial personal life? Are we really talking about that level of disregard for human life? :pink-shock:

Sorry, but I'd take a Bill Clinton type any day if it meant saving my life and my baby's. Maybe that makes ME the pro-life one. ;)

I interpreted lovemygsp's comment more like this: Jill's midwife uses X doctor and he's based at Y hospital, so that explains why they went all the way to Y hospital.

I wondered if the midwives in Jill's circle flock to him because he's lax or something, but that was pure speculation on my part. I don't know that her midwife friends all use him, or only use him. And he won a doctor of the year award in 2012.

[16strong]

I interpreted lovemygsp's comment more like this: Jill's midwife uses X doctor and he's based at Y hospital, so that explains why they went all the way to Y hospital.

I wondered if the midwives in Jill's circle flock to him because he's lax or something, but that was pure speculation on my part. I don't know that her midwife friends all use him, or only use him. And he won a doctor of the year award in 2012.

Ah, that makes more sense. I still wouldn't want to drive farther if meconium was involved, though. I'm really hoping that Jill plans for a hospital birth next time.

[grandmadugger]

Ah, that makes more sense. I still wouldn't want to drive farther if meconium was involved, though. I'm really hoping that Jill plans for a hospital birth next time.

She has no choice but to plan a hospital birth next time. Arkansas law says no LM can do a VBAC. Now Jill possibly could do some underground thing BUT she's too much in the spotlight to pull that off. If she wants a home birth she's going to have to find a state that allows it and go there but again that's going to look odd. Here are the rules about VBAC at home http://www.azdhs.gov/als/midwife/docume ... states.pdf

[goldfishgoddess]

Didn't Jill test positive for Group B strep when her water broke? As reported by People mag.

I'm still shaking my head thinking of her going nearly 42 weeks, primap with an oversized baby, group B+ strep, water broken with a breech baby.

These midwives in ARK seem to be violating the boundaries of high risk.

[silverspoons]

I interpreted lovemygsp's comment more like this: Jill's midwife uses X doctor and he's based at Y hospital, so that explains why they went all the way to Y hospital.

I wondered if the midwives in Jill's circle flock to him because he's lax or something, but that was pure speculation on my part. I don't know that her midwife friends all use him, or only use him. And he won a doctor of the year award in 2012.

If you look at the doctor of the year article , Dr Hill, delivered almost every baby born at the hospital. I'm wondering if he is the only ob/gyn with privilages at that hospital. Maybe in exchange for the hospital covering his malpractice he has to deliver every baby including emergencies , uninsured etc.

If Jill had not seen a doctor during her prenatal care, I would assume she would have to take whoever was willing to take her. She is lucky there was someone willing. Doctors can turn you down. Yes an ER has to help a women in labor but it does not mean you get a ob to deliver your baby. It could be an ER dr, surgeon or family practice doctor.

My ex was a surgeon and hated his ob rotation in med school. He decided to practice at a rural hospital that had no ob/gyn left in the area. Part of his contract was as a surgeon he would do any emergency deliveries or C-sections. The hospital covered all malpractice. Luckily there were only a handful of emergencies every year.

[maple802]

She has no choice but to plan a hospital birth next time. Arkansas law says no LM can do a VBAC. Now Jill possibly could do some underground thing BUT she's too much in the spotlight to pull that off. If she wants a home birth she's going to have to find a state that allows it and go there but again that's going to look odd. Here are the rules about VBAC at home http://www.azdhs.gov/als/midwife/docume ... states.pdf

Her brother and sister-in-law appear to have chosen the "above ground" route for home birth in MD. Lay midwives are a no-go in this state. The last episode of the show included footage from their appointment with a midwife who is a CNM at a practice of CNMs that attend home births in MD.