Josiah Duggar Courting - Part 2

[Mylnijya]

I have several stories of young marriages working out including my parents. I also have a mountain of stories of young people being made to feel like they can't have sex unless they get married so they rush into marriage, have a baby fast and then realize that they don't know each other and aren't compatible because the only reason they got married was sex. So then they either stay married and miserable because they have also been told divorce is a sin or they get divorced.

I'm guessing you are anti-choice, and the best way to stop abortion is to provide sex education, make birth control easily accessible, provide a government safety net so that poor pregnant women don't feel like their only option is abortion, and do away with the stigma of being pregnant outside of marriage so that a pregnant woman who isn't married feels no shame. Do you know what is not a good way to prevent abortion? Telling young people that they can only have sex if they get married really young. I don't see how a person can be pro-life and yet anti- all the steps that have been proven to actually reduce abortion.

The reality is that some people are going to make the wrong choices. We can't prevent that by making marriage out to be the bad-guy here. How many other people regret the various sex partners they've had? How many regret the STD they have? How often does birth control NOT prevent a pregnancy? (All the time!!) How often does birth control cause secondary infertility or other emotional/physical side effects? (All the time!) With all of the information, free birth control, sex education, and on and on, abortions happen in the thousands every single day because people continue to believe the lie that sex doesn't really create life as long as you take a pill, throw seran wrap on your penis, inject shit in your body, put some copper contraption up your yoni whatever. It fails all the time. So then being "responsible" means ending a life. Nonsense.

In my mind, the ultimate worst thing is not a crappy marriage or even divorce. The ultimate worst thing is living this lame life with no commitment to anybody or anything but one's own self.

I am pro-life. I do not think casual sex is ever ok. I think if a pregnancy happens, the two people should either get married and give it all their best try; if that's not going to happen but the woman has the support of her family then single motherhood; or if she doesn't or she doesn't want to parent then adoption. That's it! End of story.

So would I encourage my teens to marry? No. Would I tell them to wait until they are this magical age of 25? No. Would I tell them they are horrible failures if their marriage doesn't work? No. Would I demand they wait until marriage for sex? No. Will I encourage it? Yes. Will I be super pissed if they get pregnant in an uncommitted relationship and their "solution" to the situation is to get an abortion? YES. Heartbroken. For Life.

Do I think Josiah and Marjorie are making the worst mistake of all mankind if they get married? No. Will their marriage suck? Maybe! Maybe not. Maybe it will just be a lifetime of weird.

[formergothardite]

Do you have real proof that birth control causes secondary infertility and emotional/physical side effects ALL THE TIME? Can I ask where you live that teens are given real sex education, birth control is free and easily available? It isn't like that where I live in the Bible belt. There also is a lot of negative shame for any teen that would want to access these things if they were available meaning that they probably wouldn't take these things. If the mother doesn't have the support of her family? Are you saying she should be shamed and forced to give her child up? Or do you support government programs that would support this young mother no matter what her family felt?

Having been raised like I was raised I do know a lot of people who did exactly what you are saying they should do and who it was beat into their heads that it was a grave sin to put one's self first. Why is it lame to not want to commit to marriage and babies and instead be single? I think it is more selfish to create an environment where people feel pressured into marriage for reasons like they want to have sex.

[Firiel]

The reality is that some people are going to make the wrong choices. We can't prevent that by making marriage out to be the bad-guy here. How many other people regret the various sex partners they've had? How many regret the STD they have? How often does birth control NOT prevent a pregnancy? (All the time!!) How often does birth control cause secondary infertility or other emotional/physical side effects? (All the time!) With all of the information, free birth control, sex education, and on and on, abortions happen in the thousands every single day because people continue to believe the lie that sex doesn't really create life as long as you take a pill, throw seran wrap on your penis, inject shit in your body, put some copper contraption up your yoni whatever. It fails all the time. So then being "responsible" means ending a life. Nonsense.

ALL THE TIME.

[Mylnijya]

Do you have real proof that birth control causes secondary infertility and emotional/physical side effects ALL THE TIME? Can I ask where you live that teens are given real sex education, birth control is free and easily available? It isn't like that where I live in the Bible belt. There also is a lot of negative shame for any teen that would want to access these things if they were available meaning that they probably wouldn't take these things. If the mother doesn't have the support of her family? Are you saying she should be shamed and forced to give her child up? Or do you support government programs that would support this young mother no matter what her family felt?

Having been raised like I was raised I do know a lot of people who did exactly what you are saying they should do and who it was beat into their heads that it was a grave sin to put one's self first. Why is it lame to not want to commit to marriage and babies and instead be single? I think it is more selfish to create an environment where people feel pressured into marriage for reasons like they want to have sex.

I'm a childbirth educator and I get couples in my classes "all the time" (aka every single series I've done) who got pregnant while on some form of birth control. So that's what "all the time" means. It means I see it it constantly. And they're always amazed that it happened! They just can't believe it. I had a mom this year who got pregnant even though her tubes were tied. So that's what "all the time" means. As a culture we believe you can have sex and that as long as you use birth control you're guaranteed a baby-free consequence. And it just isn't true.

There is vast research documenting the side effects of hormone birth control. Mood alterations, depression, changes in libido, increases in breast cancer rates, the list goes on. None of this is uncommon aka it happens "all the time!" Copper rings and Mirena can cause secondary infertility by scarring the cervix. Look it up!

I'm fine if people want to be single. I'm just saying that if what someone calls "being single" also involves having sex with another person, then understand there is an invisible third party who's life is potentially at stake. And if you think that could just never ever happen, then you're wrong. And obviously lots of people are wrong.

I live in Southern California and there is a Planned Parenthood down the street and no it isn't hard to get birth control or anything else. Obviously their free birth control is working really well. :pull-hair:

[bal maiden]

:popcorn2:

[Firiel]

I'm a childbirth educator and I get couples in my classes "all the time" (aka every single series I've done) who got pregnant while on some form of birth control. So that's what "all the time" means. It means I see it it constantly. And they're always amazed that it happened! They just can't believe it. I had a mom this year who got pregnant even though her tubes were tied. So that's what "all the time" means. As a culture we believe you can have sex and that as long as you use birth control you're guaranteed a baby-free consequence. And it just isn't true.

There is vast research documenting the side effects of hormone birth control. Mood alterations, depression, changes in libido, increases in breast cancer rates, the list goes on. None of this is uncommon aka it happens "all the time!" Copper rings and Mirena can cause secondary infertility by scarring the cervix. Look it up!

I'm fine if people want to be single. I'm just saying that if what someone calls "being single" also involves having sex with another person, then understand there is an invisible third party who's life is potentially at stake. And if you think that could just never ever happen, then you're wrong. And obviously lots of people are wrong.

I live in Southern California and there is a Planned Parenthood down the street and no it isn't hard to get birth control or anything else. Obviously their free birth control is working really well. :pull-hair:

Well, since you know birth control statistics so well, I guess I don't even need to direct you here: https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/ ... ectiveness

Most birth control failures are user failures. Reliable forms of birth control (hormonal, IUD, and male condoms) are all over 98% effective when used correctly. If someone really wants to avoid a pregnancy, they can double up. Correct use of condoms and of hormonal birth control means that there is only a .006% chance of pregnancy-- that's hardly a failure rate of ALL THE TIME.

[sense and nonsense]

Your point that birth control can fail is valid, but it still stands that there is no legal way to force two individuals to get married anywhere in the US. Nor would such a law pass, countless infringements on rights and easy misuse. (Can you imagine the fundie dads who could prevent their daughters and sons from leaving the faith?) You want an ideal society, but it is also an impossible one.

It's nice and easy to type this out on a public internet forum, but you simply cannot create an environment that would make every parent/child/family relationship a perfect (in your view) one where both parents are married. It's much more helpful to think about how to help young pregnant women cope better in a realistic way.

Celibacy and abstinence are not always viable. And if a couple isn't compatible, the family will be unhappy anyway, but unhappy with a marriage certificate. That's all that matters, right?

[JillyO]

I'm a childbirth educator and I get couples in my classes "all the time" (aka every single series I've done) who got pregnant while on some form of birth control. So that's what "all the time" means. It means I see it it constantly. And they're always amazed that it happened! They just can't believe it. I had a mom this year who got pregnant even though her tubes were tied. So that's what "all the time" means. As a culture we believe you can have sex and that as long as you use birth control you're guaranteed a baby-free consequence. And it just isn't true.

There is vast research documenting the side effects of hormone birth control. Mood alterations, depression, changes in libido, increases in breast cancer rates, the list goes on. None of this is uncommon aka it happens "all the time!" Copper rings and Mirena can cause secondary infertility by scarring the cervix. Look it up!

I'm fine if people want to be single. I'm just saying that if what someone calls "being single" also involves having sex with another person, then understand there is an invisible third party who's life is potentially at stake. And if you think that could just never ever happen, then you're wrong. And obviously lots of people are wrong.

I live in Southern California and there is a Planned Parenthood down the street and no it isn't hard to get birth control or anything else. Obviously their free birth control is working really well. :pull-hair:

This post right here, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example of why America needs better sex ed. :wink-penguin:

[J'Lurker]

Do you fine folks ever hear others speak (and despite wearing your best stupidity-tolerance pants) kind of wish their parents had chosen abortion?

[ClaraOswin]

I have several stories of young marriages working out including my parents. I also have a mountain of stories of young people being made to feel like they can't have sex unless they get married so they rush into marriage, have a baby fast and then realize that they don't know each other and aren't compatible because the only reason they got married was sex. So then they either stay married and miserable because they have also been told divorce is a sin or they get divorced.

I'm guessing you are anti-choice, and the best way to stop abortion is to provide sex education, make birth control easily accessible, provide a government safety net so that poor pregnant women don't feel like their only option is abortion, and do away with the stigma of being pregnant outside of marriage so that a pregnant woman who isn't married feels no shame. Do you know what is not a good way to prevent abortion? Telling young people that they can only have sex if they get married really young. I don't see how a person can be pro-life and yet anti- all the steps that have been proven to actually reduce abortion.

I know the above wasn't directed at me. But am I reading this wrong? I can't be pro-life AND pro = making birth control easily accessible, providing a government safety net so that poor pregnant women don't feel like their only option is abortion, and doing away with the stigma of being pregnant outside of marriage so that a pregnant woman who isn't married feels no shame?

[Mylnijya]

Well, since you know birth control statistics so well, I guess I don't even need to direct you here: https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/ ... ectiveness

Most birth control failures are user failures. Reliable forms of birth control (hormonal, IUD, and male condoms) are all over 98% effective when used correctly. If someone really wants to avoid a pregnancy, they can double up. Correct use of condoms and of hormonal birth control means that there is only a .006% chance of pregnancy-- that's hardly a failure rate of ALL THE TIME.

Listen, I agree that if used correctly and ESPECIALLY if doubled up, then yes birth control can prevent pregnancy.

That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about what I see happening in the real world of people who DO get pregnant while on some form of birth control and are so dang shocked and bewildered that it happened to them! I love when people point out that most birth control failures are user failures. That cracks me up! Because birth control users are PEOPLE and I guess we're not robots. So those statistics are based on robot users I guess? I can tell you right now that the couples who are in my classes, it is well over 30% who tell me they were using some form of birth control when they got pregnant. It is so common to me now it is laughable. The shocked look. The disbelief. I see it ALL THE TIME. So yeah, that little miniscule statistic that drug companies like to quote, I suppose it is reassuring to some people, but that's not what is happening in this very real life of ours. At least these couples in my classes are taking responsibility for the life they've created. But what about the rest of the "birth control pregnancies" when the mom wasn't ready to be a mom? She's the one who has been lied to the most! So now what is she supposed to do? Oh, I know enter abortion solution. The vast numbers of abortions come from men and women believing the lie that their sex won't create life. It will. It does! And maybe if you double up on birth control it won't, or you use it perfectly it won't. But don't count on it. Don't ever count on it.

[LittleOleMe]

I have several stories of young marriages working out including my parents. I also have a mountain of stories of young people being made to feel like they can't have sex unless they get married so they rush into marriage, have a baby fast and then realize that they don't know each other and aren't compatible because the only reason they got married was sex. So then they either stay married and miserable because they have also been told divorce is a sin or they get divorced.

I'm guessing you are anti-choice, and the best way to stop abortion is to provide sex education, make birth control easily accessible, provide a government safety net so that poor pregnant women don't feel like their only option is abortion, and do away with the stigma of being pregnant outside of marriage so that a pregnant woman who isn't married feels no shame. Do you know what is not a good way to prevent abortion? Telling young people that they can only have sex if they get married really young. I don't see how a person can be pro-life and yet anti- all the steps that have been proven to actually reduce abortion.

I'm lost here. Are you saying that people who do not support abortion MUST support young people - including teenagers - getting married bc everyone who gets pregnant outside of marriage has to birth that child within a marriage? That's really crazy fucked up. And here's my anecdote about that. A good friend of mine used to be a school teacher down in Texas. She was teaching sixth grade and thought all the kids were joking about these two kids in the class (12 and 13) being married. Turns out there were bc they had a baby. Not kidding you. That is beyond fucked up. I know it happens in the Roma cultures but still.

And now to the second part. Are you (different you - I realize that) saying that those are NOT good ways to prevent abortion?

And I would agree that we need to get rid of the stigma of single pregnant women. They shouldn't feel shame for being pregnant outside of marriage. Not being married doesn't necessarily mean not in a committed relationship. And that really shouldn't matter. Plenty of people who do get pregnant within marriage still don't take responsibility for their children. And plenty of people who have children outside of marriage DO take responsibility for their children. Despite Duggar logic, marriage doesn't automatically turn someone into a responsible adult. Neither does pregnancy. Two perfect examples. I have two children. They were born into a committed relationship but not a marriage. He eventually left us for someone else bc he didn't want to take responsibility for them anyone and no longer felt the need to be an adult. (And screwing a barely legal was worth it, apparently.) One of my other friends also has two children, but they were born into a marriage. He, too, left bc screwing someone who wasn't his wife was more entertaining than being a parent. We are both raising our children by ourselves with little to no involvement from assholes who fathered them. The only difference is that she had a government issued piece of paper tying them together.

[formergothardite]

I know the above wasn't directed at me. But am I reading this wrong? I can't be pro-life AND pro = making birth control easily accessible, providing a government safety net so that poor pregnant women don't feel like their only option is abortion, and doing away with the stigma of being pregnant outside of marriage so that a pregnant woman who isn't married feels no shame?

Sorry I was unclear. What I was saying is that if a person is truly going to be pro-life then they aren't going to be against all the things that actually prevent unwanted pregnancy and abortion. If a person really wants to lower the abortion rates they need to help create an environment that actually does that. That environment isn't "Get married young so you can have sex."

[Mylnijya]

Your point that birth control can fail is valid, but it still stands that there is no legal way to force two individuals to get married anywhere in the US. Nor would such a law pass, countless infringements on rights and easy misuse. (Can you imagine the fundie dads who could prevent their daughters and sons from leaving the faith?) You want an ideal society, but it is also an impossible one.

It's nice and easy to type this out on a public internet forum, but you simply cannot create an environment that would make every parent/child/family relationship a perfect (in your view) one where both parents are married. It's much more helpful to think about how to help young pregnant women cope better in a realistic way.

Celibacy and abstinence are not always viable. And if a couple isn't compatible, the family will be unhappy anyway, but unhappy with a marriage certificate. That's all that matters, right?

See, I feel that I'm typing just the opposite, so I'm confused now.

I don't expect an ideal society. I feel like all of the posters who forbid young marriage and only accept marriage after age 25 with a college degree and significant financial stability are the ones who are expecting an ideal society.

I expect that people will have sex. I expect that children will come from that sex. So what do we do about this as a society?

Step one- Stop believing the lie that sex and life can be fully severed.

Step two- Sex is a moral issue because there is an invisible third party (the child) whose very life is at stake.

Step three- knowing this you have choices:

1. Abstinence. Yes you can do this. People everywhere do it.

2. Sex in a committed relationship- but should you get pregnant what are the chances that you'll

a) get married?

b) be a single mom?

c) give your child to a loving family?

d) abortion? If this is your answer then go back and read Steps 1 and 2. And get it firmly in your head.

3. Sex while married- kids can be inconvenient then sometimes too. Should you get pregnant while it's inconvenient what will you do?

a) get married? oh you're already married

b) be a single mom? oh you already have a husband

c) give your child to a loving family? oh wait you're already a family

d) abortion? Really? Read Steps 1 and 2.

4. Sex in an uncommitted relationship. This is so completely dumb. Don't do this. Read Steps 1 and 2 please. Read them again. And then find the inner strength to do B or C should you become pregnant. Because these girls get pregnant ALL THE TIME! (There I said it again. :D )

[formergothardite]

Listen, I agree that if used correctly and ESPECIALLY if doubled up, then yes birth control can prevent pregnancy.

That's not what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about what I see happening in the real world of people who DO get pregnant while on some form of birth control and are so dang shocked and bewildered that it happened to them! I love when people point out that most birth control failures are user failures. That cracks me up! Because birth control users are PEOPLE and I guess we're not robots. So those statistics are based on robot users I guess? I can tell you right now that the couples who are in my classes, it is well over 30% who tell me they were using some form of birth control when they got pregnant. It is so common to me now it is laughable. The shocked look. The disbelief. I see it ALL THE TIME. So yeah, that little miniscule statistic that drug companies like to quote, I suppose it is reassuring to some people, but that's not what is happening in this very real life of ours. At least these couples in my classes are taking responsibility for the life they've created. But what about the rest of the "birth control pregnancies" when the mom wasn't ready to be a mom? She's the one who has been lied to the most! So now what is she supposed to do? Oh, I know enter abortion solution. The vast numbers of abortions come from men and women believing the lie that their sex won't create life. It will. It does! And maybe if you double up on birth control it won't, or you use it perfectly it won't. But don't count on it. Don't ever count on it.

If you would like to talk about real life, lets talk about real life. Real life is that people are going to have sex outside of marriage. That is reality, so that is what we are going to deal with, not some fantasy world where people only have sex when they are married and ready to have children. Real life is that real sex ed and not just teaching teens to wait till they get married lowers the teen pregnancy rate. Real life is that having easily accessible birth control lowers the abortion rate. Real life is that creating an environment that doesn't shame unmarried women makes them less likely to have an abortion. Real life is that providing a government safety net so that mothers don't feel like abortion is their only option because they can't afford a baby lowers abortion rates. Real life is that while birth control may cause emotional/physical problems, but so does forcing a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want. Do you care about that as much as you care about the side effects of birth control? Real life is that we can do everything to lower abortion rates but there is still going to be abortion. Making it illegal won't stop it, it will just make it more dangerous. Do you care about the lives of those women?

Real life is that the answer isn't "just get married young so you can have sex". THAT is the absolute wrong reason to get married.

[ClaraOswin]

Sorry I was unclear. What I was saying is that if a person is truly going to be pro-life then they aren't going to be against all the things that actually prevent unwanted pregnancy and abortion. If a person really wants to lower the abortion rates they need to help create an environment that actually does that. That environment isn't "Get married young so you can have sex."

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused because I believe all of those things you listed are VERY important. But I am also more on the pro-life side of things (though I think abortion should be allowed in some cases so I an not totally pro-life like many super religious people.)

As far as those other posts about women who are SHOCKED that they become pregnant on birth control....I think that's just another example of how much education is lacking in that department.

[formergothardite]

See, I feel that I'm typing just the opposite, so I'm confused now.

I don't expect an ideal society. I feel like all of the posters who forbid young marriage and only accept marriage after age 25 with a college degree and significant financial stability are the ones who are expecting an ideal society.

I expect that people will have sex. I expect that children will come from that sex. So what do we do about this as a society?

Step one- Stop believing the lie that sex and life can be fully severed.

Step two- Sex is a moral issue because there is an invisible third party (the child) whose very life is at stake.

Step three- knowing this you have choices:

1. Abstinence. Yes you can do this. People everywhere do it.

2. Sex in a committed relationship- but should you get pregnant what are the chances that you'll

a) get married?

b) be a single mom?

c) give your child to a loving family?

d) abortion? If this is your answer then go back and read Steps 1 and 2. And get it firmly in your head.

3. Sex while married- kids can be inconvenient then sometimes too. Should you get pregnant while it's inconvenient what will you do?

a) get married? oh you're already married

b) be a single mom? oh you already have a husband

c) give your child to a loving family? oh wait you're already a family

d) abortion? Really? Read Steps 1 and 2.

4. Sex in an uncommitted relationship. This is so completely dumb. Don't do this. Read Steps 1 and 2 please. Read them again. And then find the inner strength to do B or C should you become pregnant. Because these girls get pregnant ALL THE TIME! (There I said it again. :D )

You are not living in reality. Not everyone is going to live by your morals. And right now, if I got pregnant, even though I am married I would go get an abortion because things are not as cut and dry as you make it. Have you read Treemom's late term abortion story? If not, go find it and read it and see why there are a lot of reasons to have an abortion, even in a committed relationship.

Also, adoption is the answer to a baby, not a pregnancy. Sometimes the pregnancy is the problem, not the baby that comes at the end.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well there you go. One birth class in southern California informs the statistics of the world.

I feel cheated I did not know this :( Africa is going to be GUTTED!

[sense and nonsense]

See, I feel that I'm typing just the opposite, so I'm confused now.

I don't expect an ideal society. I feel like all of the posters who forbid young marriage and only accept marriage after age 25 with a college degree and significant financial stability are the ones who are expecting an ideal society.

I expect that people will have sex. I expect that children will come from that sex. So what do we do about this as a society?

Step one- Stop believing the lie that sex and life can be fully severed.

Step two- Sex is a moral issue because there is an invisible third party (the child) whose very life is at stake.

Step three- knowing this you have choices:

1. Abstinence. Yes you can do this. People everywhere do it.

2. Sex in a committed relationship- but should you get pregnant what are the chances that you'll

a) get married?

b) be a single mom?

c) give your child to a loving family?

d) abortion? If this is your answer then go back and read Steps 1 and 2. And get it firmly in your head.

3. Sex while married- kids can be inconvenient then sometimes too. Should you get pregnant while it's inconvenient what will you do?

a) get married? oh you're already married

b) be a single mom? oh you already have a husband

c) give your child to a loving family? oh wait you're already a family

d) abortion? Really? Read Steps 1 and 2.

4. Sex in an uncommitted relationship. This is so completely dumb. Don't do this. Read Steps 1 and 2 please. Read them again. And then find the inner strength to do B or C should you become pregnant. Because these girls get pregnant ALL THE TIME! (There I said it again. :D )

Just because two teens get married (w/o a pregnancy in the situation) doesn't mean they are automatically in a loving, supportive relationship that is conducive to bringing up a child.

Secondly, they are most probably not going to be financially secure, finished with education or deciding a career path.

And if you really think that everyone can follow abstinence successfully, please give me your androgen/estrogen suppressants.

Also, while I understand pro lifers believing that life begins at conception (though I do not agree) it's downright ridiculous to go into every sexual encounter thinking of the third party at stake when that third party is basically two cells in two different bodies, at various stages of maturity (the menstrual cycle is a thing).

[OkToBeTakei]

Step one- Stop believing the lie that sex and life can be fully severed.

Can somebody tell me what the fuck that is supposed to mean?

[sense and nonsense]

Also, tapatalk created some major problem, so my previous post was really messed up (I thought it was a different poster) so it might make more sense now, after editing.

[OkToBeTakei]

Also, tapatalk created some major problem, so my previous post was really messed up (I thought it was a different poster) so it might make more sense now, after editing.

I did wonder. :lol:

[Mylnijya]

If you would like to talk about real life, lets talk about real life. Real life is that people are going to have sex outside of marriage. That is reality, so that is what we are going to deal with, not some fantasy world where people only have sex when they are married and ready to have children. Real life is that real sex ed and not just teaching teens to wait till they get married lowers the teen pregnancy rate. Real life is that having easily accessible birth control lowers the abortion rate. Real life is that creating an environment that doesn't shame unmarried women makes them less likely to have an abortion. Real life is that providing a government safety net so that mothers don't feel like abortion is their only option because they can't afford a baby lowers abortion rates. Real life is that while birth control may cause emotional/physical problems, but so does forcing a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want. Do you care about that as much as you care about the side effects of birth control? Real life is that we can do everything to lower abortion rates but there is still going to be abortion. Making it illegal won't stop it, it will just make it more dangerous. Do you care about the lives of those women?

Real life is that the answer isn't "just get married young so you can have sex". THAT is the absolute wrong reason to get married.

Yes let's talk about real life. Let's do that. Sex makes PEOPLE. Sit with that. Marinate in it. Absorb it.

Birth control access is fine. But don't count on it working and the sex not making PEOPLE.

Teens do get pregnant. I've never shamed a teen mother. I appreciate that she has the courage to choose life.

Quit acting like abstinence is completely ridiculous. It's not. Our culture shames those who remain abstinent. Think about that.

Women- you have the womb. Sorry. If you do get pregnant, yes you will be the one to carry the baby. So really spend time pondering the fact that your body is the holder of life. Accept it. Think about it for a very long long long time.

I care deeply about women. That's why I want each and every one of them to stop believing this ridiculous lie that their sex won't create human life. ASSUME THAT IT WILL. And proceed from there.

I support young marriage because I support that these are two adults who are taking responsibility for the sex they're having. I said that many posts ago. I SUPPORT THEM.

I think it is funny how supporting marriage has been twisted into this idea that it means a person wants a utopian society. I think all of you who DON'T support marriage are the ones who have that problem. You think the marriage should be perfect in every way or it shouldn't be done at all. For those of you who love statistics so much, it has been proven that women and children are safer and healthier in the bonds of marriage. Even somewhat crappy marriages! And I'm too lazy to go internet hunting for an article for you. If you Google The Case for Marriage you can find a lot.

[OkToBeTakei]

You don't 'Care deeply about women.' If you did you would support women's reproductive rights. ALL of them. Not just the ones that match your belief system.

You care deeply about that belief. You do not care about all women. Why do I say this? Because I am a woman and you do not care deeply about choices I have probably made. So yeah...Don't lie.

I think I've broken at least 4 of the weird Alphabet commandments .........quite joyfully! :lol:

[LittleOleMe]

I've had plenty of sex that didn't create a new person. It's called proper use of birth control.