Which kid will be the worst off in the end?

[whoviana]

^^

Very well put!

[socalrules]

I think that the oldest Duggars will have the hardest time. They are likely starting to realize how uneducated and uninfomred they are about the world. I fear they are likely to stay that way instead of admitting their parents did this to them and getting some type of education/training to build their future. They are the ones who have had the literal fear of God beaten into them. I am starting to think that they are too steeped in the Koolaid to get themselves out. I used to think that Derrick would pull Jill out of the cult but I am starting to think that she will either pull him deeper into it or they will be the one to divorce because he will realize his mistake. I may be alone but I am a firm believer that this marriage will not stand the test of time. Jessa and Ben, on the other hand, will likely gladly continue "suffering" while Jim Bob pays their bills and they get to spout the stupid.

I may be alone but I think the younger kids actually will fare better in the long run. ALthough I worry about them educationally, they do not seem to spend time spouting cult nonesense because it is obviously that it hasn't drilled into them. If someone was actually taking the time to effectively raise them like their older siblings, they would not be so ill mannered. They likely do not see things as black and white as their older siblings because no one has had the time to completely brainwash them. I think that by the time the youngest are adults, a lot of the rules will have lapsed and they will have a better chance of pursuing the path they choose in life, rather than the ones their parents choose for them. They are the most likely to go on and get more education and build an identity separate from their parents. Plus, I just don't see Jim Bob being able to make jobs for them or buy them houses when he has to financially support their older siblings' spouses and kids. They will be forced to take the initiative if they want anything out of life.

[SassyPants]

I think that the oldest Duggars will have the hardest time. They are likely starting to realize how uneducated and uninfomred they are about the world. I fear they are likely to stay that way instead of admitting their parents did this to them and getting some type of education/training to build their future. They are the ones who have had the literal fear of God beaten into them. I am starting to think that they are too steeped in the Koolaid to get themselves out. I used to think that Derrick would pull Jill out of the cult but I am starting to think that she will either pull him deeper into it or they will be the one to divorce because he will realize his mistake. I may be alone but I am a firm believer that this marriage will not stand the test of time. Jessa and Ben, on the other hand, will likely gladly continue "suffering" while Jim Bob pays their bills and they get to spout the stupid.

I may be alone but I think the younger kids actually will fare better in the long run. ALthough I worry about them educationally, they do not seem to spend time spouting cult nonesense because it is obviously that it hasn't drilled into them. If someone was actually taking the time to effectively raise them like their older siblings, they would not be so ill mannered. They likely do not see things as black and white as their older siblings because no one has had the time to completely brainwash them. I think that by the time the youngest are adults, a lot of the rules will have lapsed and they will have a better chance of pursuing the path they choose in life, rather than the ones their parents choose for them. They are the most likely to go on and get more education and build an identity separate from their parents. Plus, I just don't see Jim Bob being able to make jobs for them or buy them houses when he has to financially support their older siblings' spouses and kids. They will be forced to take the initiative if they want anything out of life.

And if some of the older ones move more center in beliefs, they might be able to influence the younger kids... JB and M are approaching 50 and checked out. What will JB be like in 15 years when Josie is 20...less inclined to be checked in, IMO. I am sure that the older Duggar girls will still be involved in parenting their sibs IF they maintain a decent relationship with JB and M and remain in NW Arkansas. This might be a great thing for the younger kids, if the older ones have moved closer to centrist beliefs.

[calimojo]

I think the older kids had a much more rigid and strict upbringing, that may have included borderline direct abuse ( blanket training, etc). But I think they also probably got more attention from their parents. I think the younger kids have had far less structure and from their behavior it doesn't seem like they were raised as strictly. I think they will suffer from that lack of structure, lack of education and motivation. They have also had far less attention from the parents.

From old to young, all the kids have been raised in dysfunctional ways. Hopefully they will find friends/spouses on the outside who will help them transition and heal

[Cleopatra7]

And if some of the older ones move more center in beliefs, they might be able to influence the younger kids... JB and M are approaching 50 and checked out. What will JB be like in 15 years when Josie is 20...less inclined to be checked in, IMO. I am sure that the older Duggar girls will still be involved in parenting their sibs IF they maintain a decent relationship with JB and M and remain in NW Arkansas. This might be a great thing for the younger kids, if the older ones have moved closer to centrist beliefs.

JB and Michelle have spent their entire adult lives in Christian legalism. It's all they know and from their perspectives it has worked, not just in terms of creating adult children who font question their beliefs but also in terms of making them minor celebrities. If ATI is still around in ten years, you can be sure that Josie and the Lost Girls will be at Journey to the Heart and Jackson will be at ALERT camp. Even if ATI does fold before then like VF did, I'm sure there will be plenty of other IFB re-education camps willing and eager to accept an errant Duggar teen.

[feministxtian]

I think all the kids will have problems. Jana seems SO over it all. Jill is beyond clingy. Jessa seems to be uber controlling. Jinger looks like a trapped lion. JD seems to spend as much time away from the family as possible. The rest of the kids (the younger ones) seem to not have the structure nor education to do much in life. They have no education, no self-discipline. They've been neglected by those who SHOULD have been raising them (their parents). The little girls were tossed aside in favor of "precious, miracle Josie".

I don't see a lot of success for any of the 19. Josh had his dreams tossed aside in favor of the "family business" and I think he resents the hell out of that. He got pushed into a marriage and immediate pro-creation. He didn't look too thrilled when M3 was announced and definitely didn't look thrilled with M4. Jill & Derick will probably do ok, but I think Jill's clinginess (and catgate) will cause some problems down the road.

The parents have done the kids a HUGE disservice by choosing this legalistic, insane lifestyle. It kills me to say this but I honestly think the Bates did a better job with their brood.

[Feberin]

As sad as it sounds, I think the older kids are going to be okay. Those who leave (and I'm losing hope that any will), will have incredible support from outside sources like FJ.

Although I like FJ I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a source of support for any Duggars who want to leave the lifestyle. Considering they don't actually know any of us and some of our speculation could honestly be viewed by them as insulting. If any did escape I'm sure FJers would want to help in any way possible but I think an escaped Duggar would more likely turn to support from Michelle's side of the family or friends that aren't fundie than an internet message board.

I think it's pretty much impossible to really say who will be worse off in the end. Like others have stated the older kids were more abused but the younger ones were more neglected. I think with the girls a lot of it depends on their future husbands. Any of the girls could end up with a husband who is amazing or one who is abusive. It's impossible to tell who they'll marry or how it'll go in the end. Perhaps the older girls will get more offers since they're well known but perhaps by the younger girls Jim Bob will allow men who aren't as fundie because he's just eager to finish marrying off the girls.

The boys it really depends on the careers they manage to squeak out. In this regard I think the older boys are more fortunate. Not only do some (JD and Joe) seem to have a great work ethic but there will be more resources to start businesses and more options not already taken by their brothers. I doubt Jim Bob would allow Justin to also start a towing business that would be competing with JD's.

I know this all sounds very sexist saying husbands for the girls and careers for the boys but in their world I feel like these are the biggest predictor of success in their lives. Also if any do escape who knows if they are the lucky ones or not. They may end up being the most damaged since they had more trouble conforming to their family's expectations of them while somebody like Jill who is happy in that lifestyle may thrive.

[calimojo]

I really want a legit news operation that the Duggars interact with to ask Jill and Derick about parenting choices. I want Derick to have the camera on his face and be asked if he and Jill will follow the Pearl's methods. I want to know if Derick knows that the Pearls recommend beating a baby with a flexible ruler if they move. I want Grandma Dillard to be there when those questions are asked. I imagine she would not approve of her grandson being spanked under the age of 1.

Does Derick know about this part of their history? If so, and he willingly married into that, and truly admires JB and M as he professes, then he is such a disappointment. Jill might not know any better, given that she was raised that way and may have used those techniques on her buddy group. But I would hope that if Derick ever came home from work and saw evidence of blanket training that he would go full on headship and forbid Jill from ever doing that.

I want to see him asked about this in a talking head. I want to see the producers of the show grow some ovaries and ask some truly meaningful questions, not just about modesty rules and how courtship works.

I know this won't happen, but I can dream.

I also wish that someone would go to the Women's show where Jessa is talking, and ask her, in front of the group if she will use blanket training or other advice from the Pearls. I want this out in the open. I want it to be picked up by online media.

I am all for people doing their own thing. If Michelle wants to submit to Jimbob all day and all night and pop out baby after baby, I support her right to do that, even though I don't understand it.

But when it comes to children, I just can't stand it. I wish I could do something to help these kids.

[SportsgalAnnie]

I think Jinger,Josiah, Joy, Jordyn and Jenny need to group up and leave as soon as they can. To me they all look more miserable then the others. :cry: I think all five of them could soar if they are allowed to have a voice in the world for their own opinions and Not some bull crap they are fed.

Overall I think Jordyn and Jenny have it the worst, most ignored kids I wonder if JChelle would even realize if they left.

I wonder if anyone was able to escape if they ran into JD on duty if they would be taken back home or if they would be allowed to go.

[ariel9]

-Josh and the older kids especially Josh. Josh went through most of the craziness and was cleaved just when things got better.He had his dreams of being a lawyer were shot dead. His DC job won't last forever if the show gets cancelled either.

-Jessa because again when the show gets cancelled she's relying on a possessive 19 year old to provide for her and eleventy kids.

-The rest of the older kids (sans Jill) again Pre TLC life included blanket training, mental breakdowns, and bathroom meals.

-Siah since he is always sent away to be reprogrammed and lost his only confidant to the kool-aid.

-The younger kids if they can get past their lack of schooling maybe have a shot at convincing their old worn down parents do let them actually do something with their lives.

[bunnybunz]

Do you think it would be good or bad for them if they got cancelled?

[Dandruff]

Do you think it would be good or bad for them if they got cancelled?

In some ways I think it would be good for them. There would be less attention - from leghumpers, critics, and the media - so hopefully they'd start figuring out how they want to live their lives without the constant celebrity and need to smile and watch everything they say. I see the show as an ongoing distraction for them, a ride. At some point they'll need to get off and deal with the "real" world and its requirements; e.g., education and self-reliance skills.

[SayWhat]

Do you think it would be good or bad for them if they got cancelled?

Tough question. The TLC cash flow would stop. I think JB is a however he seems fiscally savvy and probably has enough saved that they would never go back to the poor days of pre-TLC.

Mullet & Boob would continue on the fundie speaking circuit and the married adult children seem to be getting in on that dog & pony show.

It would give the non-married adults, teens and younger kids more privacy to live out their lives.

So my conclusion is that it would be good thing.

[calimojo]

But, being in the public eye, may have saved them from some of the really crazy stuff. I don't think people would have taken kindly to seeing marks on a baby's arms from blanket training with a flexible ruler.

If they got cancelled, they would see this as persecution, which would possibly make them doubledown on all the strict legalistic religious stuff. While the younger kids have been neglected, it seems they haven't been as force fed the doctrine, possibly. Having eyes on them may have helped them.

But you take religious zealots, make them defensive and feel persecuted and then leave them to their own devices and you could get an ugly situation.

I think what would have been best, is for them to have just done a few specials/year. The newness and uniqueness of their lifestyle wouldn't have gotten stale like it is now (how many talking heads are we to be subjected to about modesty standards and courtship?), and they would have gotten some extra money to support their family. But they wouldn't have had to sacrifice their privacy as much as they do now.

I enjoyed watching the specials. I liked seeing how they managed their day to day activities. But now the show is dull a watching paint dry.

[Jana814]

Do you think it would be good or bad for them if they got cancelled?

I think it would be good for the show to cancelled. They need to get back to a "normal" life. All the younger kids (Jackson to Josie) & maybe the 2 older then Jackson know if a life w/ camera's on them.

[sockinshoe]

Although I like FJ I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a source of support for any Duggars who want to leave the lifestyle. Considering they don't actually know any of us and some of our speculation could honestly be viewed by them as insulting. If any did escape I'm sure FJers would want to help in any way possible but I think an escaped Duggar would more likely turn to support from Michelle's side of the family or friends that aren't fundie than an internet message board.

What I meant was that the older Duggar kids are at an age where, should they escape, they are well known. They'd get a lot of support from the public/viewers (including sources like FJ). If the show goes under in a few years, what's to say that anyone will be paying attention when the little ones bolt (if they do). Sure, there will be a few dedicated fundie-watchers around, but who knows how helpful they can be. If an older kid were to run, they'd have immediate access to the media (interviews = $$$); interest in them would be very high (meaning books, blogs, tours, etc., which equal more money); they'd be a huge deal. If a little one were to run in ~10-15 years, they may not have access to all those resources, which would make escape a struggle or even deter them from leaving at all. I think the financial control Jim Bob has over his kids is probably a factor in whether or not they run. Even if they have individual TLC money, these kids are unskilled, uneducated, unprepared; they would be hard-pressed to get a job outside of maybe retail or food service (which doesn't necessarily pay a living wage). Also, leaving would end the TLC money.

[nastyhobbitses]

I worry the most about Jenny and Josie. There are so few photos or videos I see of Jenny smiling, and when she does, the smile doesn't seem to reach her eyes. Maybe she's just not a very smiley kid (she'd fit right in in Russia, where no one smiles), but she always seems so tired and sad. Not natural for a seven-year-old girl (unless, again, she's just not a very smiley kid). Josie, even if she doesn't have the developmental delays everyone suspects, has been raised with minimal discipline and structure, and as the Miracle Baby , she's being spoiled and coddled to an unhealthy degree. I doubt she will gain the necessary emotional maturity to live as a successful adult if her parents/sister-moms keep this up.

I also feel so sad for Joy. She was such a spunky kid and I definitely identified with her (though I wasn't nearly as much of a tomboy as she was when I was younger), and now it seems like all that spark has been snuffed out so she can be a Proper Fundie Lady. I think she has good enough sense and seems smart enough that she'll do well going forward, but I really wonder what she'd be like today had she been allowed to retain that tomboyish personality of hers.

[twinmama]

I think it would be a positive thing for the youngest kids if the show stopped. First, obviously, for their privacy. Second, the older ones would finally have to have a real adulthood and maybe seeing them struggle and not each be handed a house and land at marriage with no effort would show the younger ones that the lifestyle isn't all rainbows and unicorns. If all they ever see is blissfully happy married 19 year olds living in a free, full decorated house with money to travel, they will never leave! But if they see struggle, no money, 5 kids and no food... they might think twice about doing the same thing.

Sorry, totally wasn't referring to sexuality, just gender stereotypes but I'll leave it off to avoid confusion.

(snip}

[happy atheist]

!

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[HarleyQuinn]

Jenni worries me the most because it seems like she's already showing signs of depression.

[whoviana]

Jordyn is like a feral kitten. So many people and she doesn't really belong to anyone.

[VelociRapture]

I'm currently taking a Lifespan Development class, during which we discussed symptoms of Depression during different stages of development. Below is a link to a website that lists symptoms that can appear in children:

http://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety ... depression

With children it can be very difficult to tell whether or not they are depressed because symptoms can closely resemble normal developmental behavior.

I can't say whether Jenny is depressed or not - I don't watch the show regularly and, even if I did, the show only allows an extremely small glimpse into their lives. I would suggest that we tred a bit carefully with this topic because we don't want to place a label like that on a child, especially because mental illness is viewed as being the patient's fault in that culture (complete bullshit - but I digress). I do think she is very sad over the changes that have happened lately - two of her sisters getting married and her person (Jill) having a baby. And I think she is quite introverted and feels overwhelmed a lot by the chaos of her parents' home.

I think time will tell how these kids do. I worry for Josh because he doesn't look happy about having more kids and because his job isn't too secure if the show ends. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that he feels rather trapped at the moment - his wife wants a big family, he was raised to believe prevention of pregnancy is a mortal sin, and his job kind of depends on that as well. If he suddenly announced they were done having kids it could have a negative impact for them financially; as the eldest he would remember the early days quite vividly and I think he loves his family enough to not want that for them. I know he isn't that great a person, but I do worry about him a bit more than some of the others.

[Alexa]

I think the obvious ones that will have trouble are Jennifer, Jordon, Joy, and Josiah. It's hard to say if they are being helped by the show staying on the air or if it is making things worse. I really feel bad that Josiah has been away for so long.

Josie will be the worst off if she really is struggling with fine and gross motor skills. She is also the child most non-viewers will recognize and be interested in, which may be a bummer for her and a good thing.

Josh is in for a huge wake up call once the show is over and if/when he is let go from his D.C. job. Anna is obviously going to keep having baby after baby for as long as she can and Josh is going to have to find a way to support all of them. They've become accustomed to a very, very nice lifestyle and it isn't going to last forever.

Same with Jessa, she and Ben are now used to living high on the hog with no real jobs. When the gravy train ends, it will be a huge shock. Jessa isn't Jim Bob's favorite either, I wonder if he'll even let them keep the little house or hand it on to another kid who has just gotten married. I have a feeling she is going to regret not picking a more stable headship in the future.

I think Jana, joseph, John David, and the rest of the younger boys (not Josiah) will be fine. On the fence with Jinger. If she finds a husband who can take her away from the family, even just a few hours away I think she'll be fine. If she marries a kid like Ben she's in trouble.

[nataraja]

I am not worrying for Jennifer. She often seams unhappy and isn't smiling very much but I am optimistic that she will gain streangth out of it as her life continues. She seams to be the kind of girl that is quiet and reserved while her mind is secretly pretty active. I do believe this will help her later in life.

I always envision her as a future scholar. Even if she never goes to collage I see her as the type of women that'll read and write a lot. Maybe I am wrong but I am really not worried for her, I am actually more curious for who she will become.

Jordyn seams to be quite the opposite of Jennifer: She has a lively, sunny and self-confident personality. Jordyn's and Jennifer's personalities seam to complete each other and for that reason I expect the two of them to stick very close together their whole life.

This did not answer the question of the thread but I just wanted to give my two cents that I do not agree with the common sentiment that Jennifer will be the worst off in the end.

[CorruptionInc.]

When Josie is 20, JB and M will be mid 60s.

How long will they give a crap?

My Pa was 65 when I turned 20. He was a fantastic parent then and still is.

But then again my dad is a not a fruit loop with a mullet and some f-ed up way of looking at life.