Pope:Child-free Couples are Selfish

[julie paradox]

Oh for pity's sake, not this again.

Here's the thing: I had children. I did this for ENTIRELY SELFISH reasons.

Yes, I have "made sacrifices" in order to make it work. But I did that because it would get me what I wanted. Totally selfish.

I'm totally on board with people deciding not to have children - it ups the replacement number for the rest of us!

(Did I mention I'm selfsh? ;) )

[whoviana]

The thing that disturbs me the most that the pope made his rabbit comparison when he was visiting in the Philippines where 3 children gave a speech before the world on how extremely poverty stricken their country is, how children are forced into child labor and child prostitution, tens of millions of children and why isn't anyone helping them, and she sobbed. She asked for help from the Vatican and Catholic people, in general. So when a poverty stricken country asked the Vatican's help the pope just said to the world not to breed like rabbits if they cannot afford kids.

Now that he's back in the developed countries and his ass is comfortable and there are people out there that they can milk, he encourages first world people to make taxpayers for the Vatican.

I know that it is mandatory to call this pope cool and evolved because sometimes he spews out something that's in accordance with common sense, but I'm just as much appalled as him as any other "spiritual leaders" who cast judgment on people.

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

I'm with Whoviana. It seems that people feel obliged to think this pope is great because he is slightly more in touch with reality than his predecessors (not a tough achievement but there you go).

I have to say I laughed at his comment that being child free would result in loneliness. is he suggesting people should have children just so that they can burden them in their old age? Sounds a bit - er - selfish to me!

I have a child but am "one and done" - earth mother I am not and I fully respect the views of those who choose to many child free, many of whom are very involved in charity and community activities.

[nokidsmom]

Hearing anyone, including his holiness, calling childless people selfish is one of those things that makes me really stabby.

There are all kinds of reasons why people don't have kids. Some of it is choice. Some of it is not and it breaks these people's hearts that they can't have them. Sure fertility treatments and things like IVF make it possible for many, but it's not available to everyone nor are there any guarantees that will work. Some conditions are completely untreatable, is the case for my sister and BIL.

And for those for whom it is a choice, it might be that there are underlying health conditions that make it downright dangerous. Or there are setbacks that happen to the couple (financial, health, work, housing) that make it a very bad choice and they want to do better by the child and can't so they don't have them ( a pretty unselfish reason IMHO).

And for those who simply don't have them because they don't want them for whatever reason even if it's a reason someone else thinks is stupid or superficial, well, fine. What's the point in insisting that people have unwanted kids? Why would that be any good for the couple, the kid, the world at large that this unwanted kid will eventually go out into? Why is that anyone's business?

Just ranting here.

[whoviana]

He clearly told the poverty-stricken Philippinos not to breed like rabbits then orders financially stable catholics in the richer countries to breed. No comment.

[Feberin]

It's highly regional. It is entirely possible you live somewhere it's very cheap, but it actually sounds like it might be subsidised. That would never happen here, it's un-American, accepting that society needs well cared for children to be the next generation of tax payers and voters.

I paid $200 a week for my son's daycare when he was a baby. It was an in home licensed daycare and that was the full time rate. However that's like the lowest rates you can find around me for decent childcare and it was five years ago.

I feel like having my kids was one of my more selfish decisions. Not that we don't provide for them and I like to think they have a pretty nice life but I had them because I wanted to have children. I always find it funny when somebody says that not having kids is selfish since I have never been able to come up with a non-selfish reason for having biological children.

[Marian the Librarian]

Hmm. Let me see if I can wrap my feeble little female brain around what Mr. Pope is saying:

I married for the first (and only) time in my mid-50s. Per Bible, it's better to marry than burn. So, that makes me good. :pray:

BUT, I married after my fertility ship had sailed; hence, I have no children. So, that makes me selfish, and bad. :twisted:

Would it have been better if I'd stayed single? No...single women = BAD! :twisted:

Would it have been better if I'd spent a bajillion dollars on fertility treatments, on the microscopic chance that I might have conceived in my 50s? No...selfish, and unnatural! :stir-pot:

It would appear that, in Mr. Pope's eyes, I'm damned of I do, and damned if I don't.

Damn! :lol:

[eh02]

Where are the religious leaders telling everyone that it's selfish to have your own biological kids when so many children already need to be adopted?

For the record, I don't necessarily believe that. Everyone should make the choice that feels right to them, because THEY will be the one raising those children.

But if they're trying to play Morality Police with everyone's family planning choices...why aren't they pushing much harder for church members to adopt? Why waste so much time causing a stink about birth control and abortion when you could do something for all the children who already desperately need families and homes? How is that less selfish than someone choosing not to have children?

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Where are the religious leaders telling everyone that it's selfish to have your own biological kids when so many children already need to be adopted?

For the record, I don't necessarily believe that. Everyone should make the choice that feels right to them, because THEY will be the one raising those children.

But if they're trying to play Morality Police with everyone's family planning choices...why aren't they pushing much harder for church members to adopt? Why waste so much time causing a stink about birth control and abortion when you could do something for all the children who already desperately need families and homes? How is that less selfish than someone choosing not to have children?

Because that would mean acknowledging the reality that not all children are wanted and many cannot be cared for. They'd rather pretend that everybody on earth could be living behind a white picket fence if only they would come around to the church's teachings.

I've always felt that social conservatism is in many ways more utopian than its liberal counterparts. Because liberals will say "well, things will never be perfect, there will always be dysfunctional families and unplanned pregnancies and people who just can't make things fit into the ideal mold. So let's make sure everyone has options and safety nets so that they can deal with unforeseen circumstances." Whereas a lot of conservative social policies are based on the idea that if only people would stop having sex and start going to church we wouldn't have these problems in the first place, so let's not worry too much about the problems we have now, because all will be well after people hear the word of god.

For what it's worth, I do have a lot of respect for Francis for his focus on poverty, and I am sure that if you asked him about adoption he'd be all for it. But as a long-lapsed Catholic I have given up on the idea that the church will ever be helpful on matters of gender and sex.

[Rainytown]

Why is this a topic for him? It seems to me hat unwanted children are a larger issue than the occasional couple that chooses not to have kids. I personally don't know anyone who has actively chosen to have no children and succeeded in remaining childless . I know a few couples who were unable to conceive and many more that shouldn't have though. Fwiw, I am a catholic and this really isn't something that the church focuses on. How would anyone know if a couple is childless by choice? It's no ones business.

I knew as early as high school that I did not want to be a parent. We have been married 21 years and never had children, and we will not be having them (unless there's some type of Duggar "miracle".)

I can also guarantee that those adults who choose to be childfree (especially in the US) spent more time counting the cost and agonizing over their decision than those who think popping out children = adulthood. I'm not talking about those parents who knew the financial, emotional and physical costs before getting pregnant. I'm talking about people who thought it would be neato to have a baby, or those who just don't care about using reliable birth control, or a hundred other reasons.

It takes exceptional people who commit themselves and all possible resources to raising happy, beloved, secure kids. Shame on the Pope for not making the point that EVERY child should be a wanted and cherished child.

[August]

I knew as early as high school that I did not want to be a parent. We have been married 21 years and never had children, and we will not be having them (unless there's some type of Duggar "miracle".)

I can also guarantee that those adults who choose to be childfree (especially in the US) spent more time counting the cost and agonizing over their decision than those who think popping out children = adulthood. I'm not talking about those parents who knew the financial, emotional and physical costs before getting pregnant. I'm talking about people who thought it would be neato to have a baby, or those who just don't care about using reliable birth control, or a hundred other reasons.

It takes exceptional people who commit themselves and all possible resources to raising happy, beloved, secure kids. Shame on the Pope for not making the point that EVERY child should be a wanted and cherished child.

In the US 50% of children were unplanned.

[Cleopatra7]

Based on my personal experiences, conservative Catholics don't have a problem with the ostensibly celibate and childless members of the hierarchy telling them to have lots of babies because they believe that priests are ontologically different than ordinary people and have more insight than they do on matters of faith and morals. Therefore, what a priest has to say on childbearing and childrearing will always trump that of a layperson who is married with children, despite the fact that the former has no empirical knowledge of the subject.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Who are these mythical couples with pets and travel instead of kids, by choice?

I know people without children. I just don't know any couples where this was a clear and deliberate choice, for reasons that are strictly due to a desire to live a glamorous life. It's a bit disappointing that a Pope who has been thinking independently in other ways would fall back on a stereotype.

[MamaJunebug]

My children who are infertile are RC ... not out of any great adoration for the church, but because they're Italian, it's a cultural thing.

I thank God (literally) that they are not devout, because Francis' words would have cut them to the quick. How dare he use his papal pulpit to criticize people of whom he has *no* personal knowledge?

Bully. Right there with Doug Phillips Is A R/Tool, R.C. "Spanky" Sproul, Jr., and the rest of the self-satisfied sack of them all.

He's not my pope and I'm glad about that.

Also, Marian the Librarian, I lurve you!

[2xx1xy1JD]

My children who are infertile are RC ... not out of any great adoration for the church, but because they're Italian, it's a cultural thing.

I thank God (literally) that they are not devout, because Francis' words would have cut them to the quick. How dare he use his papal pulpit to criticize people of whom he has *no* personal knowledge?

Bully. Right there with Doug Phillips Is A R/Tool, R.C. "Spanky" Sproul, Jr., and the rest of the self-satisfied sack of them all.

He's not my pope and I'm glad about that.

Also, Marian the Librarian, I lurve you!

I know most religious leaders will insert some phrase like "I'm only talking about those who have chosen not to have children, not those who can't". It doesn't make those sort of speeches any easier to hear. I've been with women who have tried everything to have kids, who have been through pregnancy or infant loss, and when a speech like that comes along, it feels like a knife in the gut.

[eri]

Overpopulation is real. I would rather have more CF people than baby-crazy people.

[EmiGirl]

2 of my friends were getting married back in 1991. Catholic, in a region with a high Catholic population. She was pregnant, but the church will turn a blind eye if you marry before the birth. they attended the Pre-Cana (I know I spelled that wrong, it's the meetings with the priest before your wedding), and their priest said they needed to promise that they would have three children in the next five years. my friends did not want to lie to the priest, so they said, "no, we don't think we can support three children right away." they were 20 and 23 and still in college. the priest refused to marry them because of that answer. they got married at city hall after the baby was born. it turned out that she had a very difficult pregnancy and a last-minute C-section because the baby's head was so big. they never bothered to find out if the church would have excused them from having 2 more babies after that. maybe the pope would have called them selfish for stopping.

That's just awful. No one can promise to have x number of kids in x years.

[stardust]

This kind of talk saddens me. Growing up in a religious family and seeing my Mom as a housewife for a good portion of my life, I vowed never to get married. I'm now 19 and having a life partner has slowly started to appeal to me, as my mom has since gotten a job, my father has retired, and they are still a happy couple (there are still things about marriage that turn me off, however. I believe the bible wholeheartedly and I the wife is supposed to submit to the husband. I don't see myself submitting to anyone, which is why there's still a part of me that probably won't get married even if I met someone I loved).

It took me awhile to become okay with even thinking about marriage, but I know in my heart that I never wish to have kids and it just kills me that some Christians consider it wrong for a healthy, fertile couple to purposefully prevent having children. It makes my blood boil to know that even if I met someone I loved and decided to get married, people would judge me or think something was wrong because I don't want kids.

It's even unheard of or considered selfish if you, as a married woman, get pregnant and decide to give the baby away to a couple who will love and take care of it. I can't even believe that some people would put adoption and selfish in the same sentence! There are actually people out there that believe that if you are married and you do not want children that you are sinful, despite there being no biblical evidence of it.

It just makes me angry the way that these people think. There are some people who just do not want children. Not every woman has the instinct to be a mom. If I didn't have the option to give up the child to another family, (not bringing abortion into the debate, as I believe it's immoral) it would not be fair to the child because I'm not a maternal person and much as I respect them, I do not enjoy children. In some cases it would be harmful to the child to know that their parent doesn't want them.

Wouldn't it be nice if religion wasn't so damn black and white?

[stardust]

Also, am interested on the pope's take on couples who only have children for their own fulfillment. You hardly hear people say that they want kids because they want to make a difference in a child's life. I know a lot of people who desire kids because "I want someone who will love me" and "I want someone to take care of me when I'm old." Are those people considered selfish?

[stardust]

2 of my friends were getting married back in 1991. Catholic, in a region with a high Catholic population. She was pregnant, but the church will turn a blind eye if you marry before the birth. they attended the Pre-Cana (I know I spelled that wrong, it's the meetings with the priest before your wedding), and their priest said they needed to promise that they would have three children in the next five years. my friends did not want to lie to the priest, so they said, "no, we don't think we can support three children right away." they were 20 and 23 and still in college. the priest refused to marry them because of that answer. they got married at city hall after the baby was born. it turned out that she had a very difficult pregnancy and a last-minute C-section because the baby's head was so big. they never bothered to find out if the church would have excused them from having 2 more babies after that. maybe the pope would have called them selfish for stopping.

You know, it's funny. These people claim that children are a gift, then turn around and use them as punishment for those who have sinned. Same way a teen girl who gets pregnant shouldn't have the option of abortion and should 'accept' her punishment and become a mother at 14. I can't help but think that a good portion of their 'beliefs' are just political propaganda.

[ladyamylynn]

Who are these mythical couples with pets and travel instead of kids, by choice?

I know people without children. I just don't know any couples where this was a clear and deliberate choice, for reasons that are strictly due to a desire to live a glamorous life. It's a bit disappointing that a Pope who has been thinking independently in other ways would fall back on a stereotype.

Funny how these things depend on your own social circle. My husband and I have chosen not to have kids- we love our pets, classic cars, and travel, restaurants, etc. We are far from alone in our group of friends. Neither his brother nor my two sisters and their partners have kids, and neither do most of my close friends. All mid-late 30's professionals.

[LittleOleMe]

There are way more people out there having children for selfish reasons than not having children for selfish reasons. And since when is not having children for selfish reasons bad?? I know someone is child free by choice and married and enjoys her expensive purses and nice clothes and yearly vacations out of the country. That's her choice. She doesn't like children. She has step children and she can't stand them (Although thats their own fault as one is a high school drop out druggie and I don't really know the other.)

I actually know people who had children for selfish reasons. They were married and both had very successful jobs. They didn't want children bc they insist that having just one would cause the world to explode. But they felt their genes should get passed on and kept in the gene pool. They're both intelligent people and they should be passing this on to a child. So they decided to have a token child when she was 38. (And this is them talking. They seriously said they were having a token child to keep their genes in the pool. Fucking serious.) That's selfish. That's the exact attitude that should make you NOT have children. These are the people we don't need having children. "Oh I'm smart and successful so I better have a child to make sure my precious genes get passed on" :angry-banghead:

[catlady]

I know a lot of people who had children for "selfish" reasons: "because I want them," "because they will make my life complete" "because I feel it's time to think about someone other than myself." (I know this is sounding snarky, but I promise you that is not my intent.)

The common denominator is that they CHOSE to have their babies. if it's ok to choose to have a baby, why on earth isn't it ok to choose not to have one? especially when there are plenty of groups out there who are still condemning single mothers? it's the same kind of 1950's social conformity--if you don't fit into the same neat little box as everyone else (read: obey parents, court, marry, have sex, have babies, in that order, and all the while do not deviate from your neighbors), then there's something wrong with you.

[roddma]

In my reading, I find the parents of larger religious families are the harshest critics of smaller families and child-free people. Even more secular parents call child-free people Peter Pans who dont want to grow up or 'die to self'. .IMO these kinds of people perhaps took on more than they can handle or thought children would fulfill them and want everyone else to feel their misery.Maybe they secretly are jealous of people who got to make sound choices. I know they love their kids, but likely wish they had put some more thought into it. If you are truly happy with your choice, you wouldnt be attacking people who make other choices.

I wonder if the Pope has ever visited a nursing home. He would see having kids doesnt mean they will be there.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Funny how these things depend on your own social circle. My husband and I have chosen not to have kids- we love our pets, classic cars, and travel, restaurants, etc. We are far from alone in our group of friends. Neither his brother nor my two sisters and their partners have kids, and neither do most of my close friends. All mid-late 30's professionals.

You're right, different social circles.

I just find that many of the childless people I know aren't that way by choice. Aside from infertility, there are those with serious health issues, those who never found a partner, those in difficult marriages, those who have issues that would prevent them from being effective parents, etc. So, I never make any assumption that someone is childless by choice unless they clearly indicate that this is the case.