Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[whoviana]

Is this butthole still running amok?

Are you SO very lonely and miserable that pissing off a bunch of strong willed pro-rights women is your only way to get women talk to you continuously? On a 1 to 9999 scale, how pathetic are you?

[ILoveJellybeans]

A few questions:

1. Who owns the term marriage? Is marriage purely a Christian thing?

Nope, it isn't. Christians can get married in a Christian wedding ceremony, that belongs to them and they can always have the right to choose what standards the couple get married. When I talk about wanting gay marriage to be legal for everyone, I don't expect very conservative churches to start letting anyone get married there. They can choose who gets married in their church because of their religious beliefs, and that is fine. They do anyway, like some have dress codes for couples who get married there, some are only willing to hold weddings of people who attend the church, most will only allow people of their religion to get married there.

Muslims get married. Jews get married. Atheists get married, and people don't have to get married in churches. All of these are legal as long as they fit the rules given to every place that allows weddings. Sure, some religions practice polygamy and would allow three people to get married in their churches, but that doesn't fit the rules set out by the state on who can get married, so legally they would only be considered married to one of those people. This means that Christians can not choose who gets married in America, as they don't choose who gets married in the first place. In the eyes of the law, the marriage between a fundie couple who courted and did not kiss until their wedding day, performed at Steven Anderson's church is just as legal as the couple who got married in Vegas after one month of being in a relationship.

2. Why should same sex marriage be illegal because it is against Christian laws, when the laws everyone is expected to follow are not Christian laws?

It is unconstitutional to make laws because your religion says that God doesn't like these things. It goes against the separation of church and state, which I think is the only thing that is stopping America becoming a theocracy of whichever religion's fundie gets there first. Fundies who don't think that the separation of church and state is a good thing still worry that the president is going to ban their religion and persecute them, or think that Obama is a Muslim and that is a bad thing because he is going to start making laws based on sharia law...but the same laws that stop people from making laws that ban their religion are the same laws that mean that they have no right to ban same sex marriage, or make schools teach creationism the way their religion says it does as a scientific fact and not mention the creation myths of other religons or evolution.

I am a lesbian. One day I hope to get married (and I can, I live in a country where gay marriage is legal). I am not going to have hot lesbian sex on your lawn or make you watch or anything. All I want for myself and other gay people is to be able to get married, to be considered a real married couple and have all the benefits that come with that in the eyes of the law. To be able to buy things for my eventual wedding without discrimination. To be able to walk hand in hand with my girlfriend or give her a modest kiss without dirty looks. Im not expecting to have me sticking my hand down her pants and feeling her tits in public to be socially acceptable, because it isn't, and I don't want to see a man do that to his girlfriend either.

Why should I hide who I am in public to stop Christians whining persecution. I am respectful of religious people-if I was invited to a fundie church I wouldn't come dressed as a stripper, I would wear a long skirt. Just the same as if I was invited to a mosque I would take my shoes off and wear a headscarf. I wont stop eating bacon because some religions say it is wrong, but if you are a Muslim, Jew or vegetarian I am not going to be sitting right in front of you eating it and making a big deal of it....but I will still eat it in my own home and when I am out and about, I might sit at a table near to any of these people in a restaurant and order pork, and I have a right to and am not forcing it on them by sitting quietly in the same room eating food that their beliefs say that they cant have. Just the same as if I see a fundie couple, I wont hide that I am a lesbian, but I wont go right up to them and make out with a woman. I will just carry on as normal and if they complain at that, its their problem, not mine.

[treemom]

Yeah, he is young adult brought up in Vision Forum where he has been taught his own superiorority and a twisted view of history. He is actually coming back and engaging and trying to discuss the issues. Calling him an asshole is not helping him learn. I think he dead wrong but all the aggressiveness is doing to keeping him from opening his mind. This is not a situation like BrownieMomma, who drops her Bon mots and disappears. Tree mom and others are doing a good job of talking without insults. Let's educate a young fundie, not close him off

Oh I don't know if I am doing a good job without insults.

[treemom]

What about a funeral for someone's same gendered partner or spouse? Is that acceptable?

[treemom]

You know why this thread frustrates me? Because I remember being around CnD's age (which you can imply by the VF'ers he knows). It reminds me of how annoying and frustrating I was back when I thought I was so clever and smart. And I had no issue with gay people. I was however insistent of my rightness even in the face of more compelling and accurate arguments. It reminds me of the worst of myself.

[formergothardite]

You know why this thread frustrates me? Because I remember being around CnD's age (which you can imply by the VF'ers he knows). It reminds me of how annoying and frustrating I was back when I thought I was so clever and smart. And I had no issue with gay people. I was however insistent of my rightness even in the face of more compelling and accurate arguments. It reminds me of the worst of myself.

It is a bad age for many people. Add in being raised to believe you are intellectually and morally superior to everyone else and it is no wonder he willfully ignores arguments that make more sense. I'm glad that this stage of my life was not documented for everyone to see. I think he will look back and be embarrassed at what he said here. I still am holding out hope that as it becomes more clear that he is incapable of defending his beliefs it will plant a tiny seed of change that will eventually help him grow into a sort of person who doesn't want to use his religion to discriminate.

[RosyDaisy]

I have spent most of my adult life trying to educate and reason with fundies. It doesn't work.

[whoviana]

This was the last freaking time that I'm trying to illustrate or explain anything to a fundie. It is a waste of time, it's like feeding a troll that gets off on it.

[treemom]

I have spent most of my adult life trying to educate and reason with fundies. It doesn't work.

And yet others say that these sorts of conversations helped plant the seeds. FG for instance. So it appears it just doesn't work for you. I refuse to deny other's experiences just because you are under the belief that fundamentalists can change their views. Which you say, all the time...we get it.

[formergothardite]

Just in case CNB was actually serious about wanting to know why it isn't true that the Bible is clearly anti-gay, here is another link. I learned some new things reading this.

http://jesuslovesgays.blogspot.com/2011 ... tutes.html

MALAKOI - Literally means "soft" or "males who are soft". This word has been translated as "effeminate" (KJV), "homosexuals" (NKJV), "corrupt" (Lamsa), "perverts" (CEV), "catamites" which means call boys (JB), "those who are male prostitutes" (NCV), and "male prostitutes." (NIV, NRSV). Until the Reformation in the 16th century and in Roman Catholicism until the 20th century, malakoi was thought to mean "masturbators." Only in the 20th century has it been understood as a reference to homosexuality. In 1522, Martin Luther translated this term "weichlinge" or "weaklings." Philo, a first century contemporary of Paul, applied the term to a man who had remarried his former wife. It commonly designated any male whose behavior was less than respectable. Many scholars argue that malakoi refers to moral weakness in general, with no specific connection to sodomy.

Jung and Smith state that the reputation of Corinth in the ancient world only complicates the translation difficulties. Historical studies indicate that Corinth was well known as a sexual meat market. Therefore the term may have nothing to do with same-sex activity at all. Then again, it may refer only to very common, exploitive forms of same-sex activity such as pederasty or male prostitution. Their conclusion is that neither linguistic nor historical studies can verify which of the translation options is most accurate.

The author of the blog also says this.

They are not to be taken out of context or twisted to be read in a sense that never would have occurred to their original readers. The key question we ask ourselves is this: "How did the original audience likely understand the meaning of this text?

Growing up, as much as it was claimed that we had the best interpretation of the Bible, we never really looked at how the original readers would have taken it. The context of the time, place and society was never taken into account. And I think that is the biggest problem with applying the NT verses about homosexuality to a modern relationship of a loving, committed couple, because that wasn't what the original readers were dealing with.

[ViolaSebastian]

I'm still caught up on the assertion that the sodomy that The Bible refers to is only in reference to same sex couples. So, in your view, if I give my husband a blow job, it's a-ok and biblical. But if I was a man and gave my husband a blow job, that'd be a sin?

[formergothardite]

And to give CND some context, here are some articles that use the Bible to justify segregation. You telling them "well you are wrong" would do no good because just like you have been raised in a culture that reads the Bible to be anti-gay, they were raised in a culture to read the Bible to be pro-segregation. Their arguments probably seem far-fetched to you, but your arguments appear the same when it comes to homosexuality and the Bible.

thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/bible_and_segregation

.drslewis.org/camille/2013/03/15/is-segregation-scriptural-by-bob-jones-sr-1960/

I would recommend people read the one by Bob Jones. It sounds shocking now, but when he was giving this message it wasn't. The people listening would find it shocking and crazy if CND came to tell them they were reading their Bible wrong. Got to love Bob Jones claiming he was totally going to build a college for colored folks but since all this communist desegregation started up he isn't going to be able to do so. :roll:

[Rainytown]

A few questions:

1. Who owns the term marriage? Is marriage purely a Christian thing?

Nope, it isn't. Christians can get married in a Christian wedding ceremony, that belongs to them and they can always have the right to choose what standards the couple get married.

Here's a news flash for Mr. CandD:

When the Washington State Legislature was debating the enactment of marriage equality, one of the uglier little secrets that came out were the statements of SEVERAL elected officials in Washington State who believe that those who are not intending on having children should not be allowed to marry in the state. This would directly affect our marriage of 21 years, our grandparents' thirty-year marriage (they had children with previous spouses) and many more. It has nothing to do with gay or straight. It's all about discrimination against anyone else who believes differently than the Christians about what constitutes a "marriage".

He can parrot his "it's against the Bible" and SIN! SIN! SIN! all he'd like, but the truth is as follows: Marriage is, and always has been, a civil contract between two consenting adults. It's frankly not the church's, or anyone else's business, why two people choose to marry, whether or not they have children, or for what purpose they want their relationship to each other recognized by the state and by society.

[RosyDaisy]

And yet others say that these sorts of conversations helped plant the seeds. FG for instance. So it appears it just doesn't work for you. I refuse to deny other's experiences just because you are under the belief that fundamentalists can change their views. Which you say, all the time...we get it.

I'm sorry. I was being a little bitchy. I use think the same thing, educate and reason with fundies. Then I realized they are always coming up with ways to take our rights away. That's where I draw the line. That's when I stop trying to be nice. That's when I fight back. I guess I lack the patience that others do.

[Idolatry]

This thread doth protest too much about gay weddings...

“We don’t have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity, it’s written in the Bible.†-Ted Haggard

[nelliebelle1197]

Is this butthole still running amok?

Are you SO very lonely and miserable that pissing off a bunch of strong willed pro-rights women is your only way to get women talk to you continuously? On a 1 to 9999 scale, how pathetic are you?

Not everyone on here is a woman and there are some more conservative women on here as well. So please don't generalize about who the 8,000 members may be. This is not Borg collective.

This is probably the most challenge CnD has had in his life. He was brought up in Vision Forum, taught a twisted view of manhood, history and religion. He is parroting so many arguments with which many of us who had a BJU, Abeka and other conservative Christian curriculum are very familiar. It is good for this guy to have FG and CoD challenge him with reasonable arguments. He is never going to open his mind or grow up if people insult him.

[Marian the Librarian]

It never fails! I go away for a weekend, and damn, things get interesting on FJ!

I don't have much to add, beyond thanking Rainytown for starting the thread, on behalf of my 80-something aunt, who was finally able to marry her partner of many decades. :D

I like Desmond Tutu's take on it all: "I would not worship a God who is homophobic, and that is how deeply I feel about this. I would refuse to go to a homophobic heaven. No, I would say sorry, I mean I would much rather go to the other place."

[KittenMitten]

Congratulations to your Auntie. I hope her and her wife's day was perfect. Yes, it was a hell of a thread. I wish he would come back. He didn't answer my questions.

[CloakNDagger]

Congratulations to your Auntie. I hope her and her wife's day was perfect. Yes, it was a hell of a thread. I wish he would come back. He didn't answer my questions.

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

[samurai_sarah]

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

Well, bless your cotton socks then. But it's okay to admit that you've run out of arguments, dear.

[whoviana]

Bwahahah :lol: :lol: :lol:

[treemom]

I'm sorry. I was being a little bitchy. I use think the same thing, educate and reason with fundies. Then I realized they are always coming up with ways to take our rights away. That's where I draw the line. That's when I stop trying to be nice. That's when I fight back. I guess I lack the patience that others do.

I don't have a lot of patience either, but I think people can change. I know I was very intransigent in my early twenties. We do know some do change, so I just hate the insistence that you make quite regularly that it doesn't happen. Again, FG is an example by her own words and I have no reason to doubt her. I certainly don't hold my parents' worldview anymore. Etc. fundamentalist thought is a belief system, like any other, and some will change and grow when introduced to a bigger worlds. especially a world like FJ where we actually do disagree on a lot of things...but tend to be fairly united in things like this. It's good to see that.

[treemom]

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

good. To me that indicates you are on a path of growth and nuance. Hopefully one day you will come to understand more of that. Trust me it is a better world to live in. I am in the path of always growing, and assuming I am wrong more than I am right so I can try and hear what other people say without my biases messing things up.

I decided I like myself a lot more when I think I am wrong more than I think I am right. It's a good trick for me to fight against my desire to have an ordered, objective world. That desire tends to make me resistant to any change. So if I just assume I am wrong I often find I didn't have a good argument to begin with.

[treemom]

I just assumed it was Grey's Anatomy.

[formergothardite]

Too busy with real life... maybe I'll have some time later in the week, or maybe not.

And I pretty strongly dislike a lot of Bob Jones stuff, and had already begun that before FJ.

The thing that you fail to realize is that if we took Bob Jones' speech and swap out race for being gay it would sound just like you.

Honestly I did not expect that CND would admit to changing his mind on this thread or even address all the links I posted about the Bible. I expected that he would find an excuse(real or not) for leaving it. No matter what he claims, deep down inside he has to know that his beliefs are simply impossible to defend because we all know that if he could defend them he would jump at the chance of doing so. Anyone remember his Civil War thread? He firmly believed that slavery should have continued on for ten more years(his lack of empathy for slaves is quiet astounding) and then in the magical world where he was raised, he claimed it would end with no war*. :lol: CND is still very, very brainwashed by VF and it is going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort on his part to rid himself of that brainwashing. I had no expectations it would happen in this thread. But at least he is getting exposed to different ideas on the Bible.

*This CND is why no one here thinks you have really studied history. You studied a very biased view of history and you were taught to look at history through VF lenses. You probably don't even realize you are doing it. Also, work on empathy and compassion. You have none. Absolutely none. You can even study the Bible to help you with that. :wink-kitty:

ETA: I skimmed back over the Civil War thread with CND right after reading Bob Jones' speech and his version of what the Old South was like was pretty much exactly what CND claimed the Old South was like. Something to think about CND.