Pennington Point daughter escapes/ Has no ID's MERGED

[freejingerbeth]

I know people have said that this can be seen as a negative thing towards homeschooling because extremists are portrayed.

But really, kids attend public school all the time without birth certificates or social security cards. It's the combination of non- registered birth, no Christening/Baptism records, no medical records, no immunizations AND no help from her parents that is causing her issues. It isn't just because she is home schooled. The difference is that if she had attended public school she could at least document her presence in the U.S. From age 5.

Oh ! Just thought of something ( sorry if I missed someone saying this ) wouldn't her parents have filed some sort of paperwork with the state saying they were homeschooling their kids? Which would be filed somewhere and list her name, address and birthdate? Or are they soooooo off- grid that they pretended they didn't exist at all?

I live in CO, as when my kids started school, I had to produce a birth certificate.

[Lissa1481]

In CO, where I live, I have to mail an intent to homeschool to my district every year, I have to keep attendance records, minimum curriculum standards (including numbers of hours on specific subjects), and starting in 3rd grade, they have to take the state standardized test annually. The attendance and curriculum are not formally monitored but if my family were to come under investigation for any reason, I would need to produce evidence that I'm keeping up my end of the deal.

We are in Colorado also, and do a part time public school program, but we still have to do all of that. And it's really not that big of a challenge . I'm surprised it is not required by all states.

[Grimalkin]

Jacob Pennington has a youtube channel. Mostly, Lizzietalks or something, its a young Christian vlogger who describes herself as a love guru. He has a total snarkworthy "commercial" he made with his mom.....its so odd to consider a mother and adult or teenage son producing it, and Lisa definitely loves the attention. Lastly, lots of the dad practicing his closing arguments and cross examinations. He seems to really like this Lizzie gal who is a sophomore.

[knit1purl1]

We are in Colorado also, and do a part time public school program, but we still have to do all of that. And it's really not that big of a challenge . I'm surprised it is not required by all states.

No, it's really not a big deal at all. It felt like a lot to keep track of this time last year when we decided to homeschool this year but with a decent planner book and a binder for portfolio pieces, it's not a problem at all.

[Mama Mia]

thanks for the insight, browniemomma. :)

regarding the quoted statement specifically, that's exactly what i started thinking of. of course minors aren't going to be liable for unreported income, but once they're of age, it's fair game. and if they can't prove that they were dependents (because that's what they are right now), then what? i shudder to think the legalities that are being sidestepped and the consequences that the chidults could ultimately suffer or the headaches they will have to deal with. not lisa and james. the chidults. :angry-banghead:

If they are having difficulty obtaining a social security number ( or share their parents beliefs ) , they can file taxes for themselves by using a Taxpayer Identification Number -- TIN. It's a number generated solely for the purposes of paying taxes. It's mostly used by immigrants. I only have experience with it being used by undocumented workers, but I know there are other cases where people use it. It has restrictions on the sorts of credits and refunds the person can receive, but it is a way to stay compliant with filing requirements. If someone is employed by an actual employer they will also need to prove their legal right to work in the United States. But if they are self employed or an independent contractor they can just use the TIN.

I have never heard of anyone being questioned about not having been claimed as a dependent and then filing their own taxes. If you think about it, that really wouldn't be remotely practical to pursue. As a large portion of young adults have quite a few years between when their parents claim them and they make enough to file.

Sorry if this had been covered, it's a fast moving thread and I keep missing stuff.

Oh, and to the pp, I assume it varies by state. I know at least a few years ago in CA it wasn't a requirement. There are a large number of children in the state who did not arrive here with birth certificates and they are entitled to an education.Also I know it is now a requirement to register a birth in Texas, but I wonder if it was when Faith was born? Regulations on everything have increased dramatically since 9-11.

[Mama Mia]

Not in TX. Homeschools are considered private schools and there is no oversight or reporting. I homeschool in TX. I'm sorry to say this, but I think reporting is a good idea. In SC, we reported to a homeschooling association which kept our records. It keeps the parents accountable and honest, and legal.

So the parents don't even have to tell the state who is enrolled in their private school?

[thoughtful]

I finally caught up on this thread. Thanks to those who have been contributing information. I have nothing serious to add, other than posting that it made the Christian Science Monitor, which I don't think had been mentioned yet: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/20 ... uld-you-do

On the non-serious side, while I was thinking about James and Lisa's slick, slippery attempts to wriggle out of trouble, this image came to me:

[Cartmann99]

I don't know about public schools where you are, but I needed my kids' birth certificates, SS #'s, and shot records when they started school.

I would need everything that VVV listed plus a driver's license or photo ID of parent or guardian, and either a utility bill, lease agreement, or mortgage statement to prove residency.

[nelliebelle1197]

If they are having difficulty obtaining a social security number ( or share their parents beliefs ) , they can file taxes for themselves by using a Taxpayer Identification Number -- TIN. It's a number generated solely for the purposes of paying taxes. It's mostly used by immigrants. I only have experience with it being used by undocumented workers, but I know there are other cases where people use it. It has restrictions on the sorts of credits and refunds the person can receive, but it is a way to stay compliant with filing requirements. If someone is employed by an actual employer they will also need to prove their legal right to work in the United States. But if they are self employed or an independent contractor they can just use the TIN.

I have never heard of anyone being questioned about not having been claimed as a dependent and then filing their own taxes. If you think about it, that really wouldn't be remotely practical to pursue. As a large portion of young adults have quite a few years between when their parents claim them and they make enough to file.

Sorry if this had been covered, it's a fast moving thread and I keep missing stuff.

Oh, and to the pp, I assume it varies by state. I know at least a few years ago in CA it wasn't a requirement. There are a large number of children in the state who did not arrive here with birth certificates and they are entitled to an education.Also I know it is now a requirement to register a birth in Texas, but I wonder if it was when Faith was born? Regulations on everything have increased dramatically since 9-11.

I checked the TIN out in the regs and it looks like only immigrants, aliens and foreign military spouse can now get one. You have to have a raft of paper and have to prove foreign status.

What documents are acceptable as proof of identity and foreign status?

IRS streamlined the number of documents the agency accepts as proof of identity and foreign status to obtain an ITIN. There are 13 acceptable documents. Each document must be current and contain an expiration date. IRS will accept documents issued within 12 months of the application if no expiration date is normally available. Documents must also show your name and photograph, and support your claim of foreign status. Below is the list of the only acceptable documents:

Passport (stand alone document)

National identification card (must show photo, name, current address, date of birth, and expiration date)

U.S. driver's license

Civil birth certificate (required for dependents under 18 years of age)

Foreign driver's license

U.S. state identification card

Foreign voter's registration card

U.S. military identification card

Foreign military identification card

Visa

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) photo identification

Medical records (dependents only - under 6)

School records (dependents only - under 14, under 18 if a student)

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Revised- ... -for-ITINs

[Delilah]

If they are having difficulty obtaining a social security number ( or share their parents beliefs ) , they can file taxes for themselves by using a Taxpayer Identification Number -- TIN. It's a number generated solely for the purposes of paying taxes. It's mostly used by immigrants. I only have experience with it being used by undocumented workers, but I know there are other cases where people use it. It has restrictions on the sorts of credits and refunds the person can receive, but it is a way to stay compliant with filing requirements. If someone is employed by an actual employer they will also need to prove their legal right to work in the United States. But if they are self employed or an independent contractor they can just use the TIN.

I have never heard of anyone being questioned about not having been claimed as a dependent and then filing their own taxes. If you think about it, that really wouldn't be remotely practical to pursue. As a large portion of young adults have quite a few years between when their parents claim them and they make enough to file.

Sorry if this had been covered, it's a fast moving thread and I keep missing stuff.

Oh, and to the pp, I assume it varies by state. I know at least a few years ago in CA it wasn't a requirement. There are a large number of children in the state who did not arrive here with birth certificates and they are entitled to an education.Also I know it is now a requirement to register a birth in Texas, but I wonder if it was when Faith was born? Regulations on everything have increased dramatically since 9-11.

Thank you for this explanation. I was considering asking about how a person pays taxes w/o a SS#, but I was worried about asking a stupid question.

I just finished getting caught up on this thread. I'm truly amazed at the depth of research FJ'ers have done. I understand the situation so much better now. As someone said upthread, Alecia Faith's parents sure did a job on her.

So, here's what I'm still unclear on:

1. Why hasn't the IRS nailed the Penningtons yet? With all the publicity, are they likely to get an audit now? I sure hope so!

2. Someone said upthread that not filing the info for a BC within 5 days is a misdemeanor. Have the Penningtons acknowledged that they broke a law?

I'm glad the cat fight is over. That was unpleasant. :(

edited for spelling

[Delilah]

One more thing I'm unclear on (sorry if it was answered before and I missed it). The Penningtons are stating that they helped their oldest 2 kids through the process of getting documents, and they were mid-way through getting Alecia Faith her documents. Would they have run into the same problems that she is having, or would their efforts have been more successful because they have more stuff to prove her identity and citizenship? How much did the law change in November complicate the situation? (Someone mentioned that a law had changed in Nov about getting a DL I think) They make it sound like they were totally getting her documentation, but she flew the coop before they were able to finish. If they are spouting bullshit, I want them publicly called out on it.

[VVV]

One more thing I'm unclear on (sorry if it was answered before and I missed it). The Penningtons are stating that they helped their oldest 2 kids through the process of getting documents, and they were mid-way through getting Alecia Faith her documents. Would they have run into the same problems that she is having, or would their efforts have been more successful because they have more stuff to prove her identity and citizenship? How much did the law change in November complicate the situation? (Someone mentioned that a law had changed in Nov about getting a DL I think) They make it sound like they were totally getting her documentation, but she flew the coop before they were able to finish. If they are spouting bullshit, I want them publicly called out on it.

I would bet money that they are spouting bullshit. They are lying liars who lie.

[mirele]

1. Why hasn't the IRS nailed the Penningtons yet? With all the publicity, are they likely to get an audit now? I sure hope so!

Well, this is the deal. It's entirely possible that the IRS has gone after them, and we wouldn't know about it, because there's an agreement in place and the Penningtons are paying the IRS. That said, I believe there is an order from a judge out there and the IRS owed the Penningtons some money due to defending themselves in a lawsuit.

Also, the Penningtons have been pretty much off the radar. The IRS is limited in the amount of money it has available to pursue tax evaders, so it goes after people who are pushing bogus tax shelters, pure trusts or sovereign citizen schemes to others. I suspect that jailed creationist evangelist Kent Hovind would not have popped up on the IRS's radar had he not been palling around with other tax evaders and promoting their whack tax theories in addition to his whack creationist theories. Even though Hovind is in prison for tax evasion, he continues to hold to the beliefs that put him there. Hovind called a follower up last week from the jail where he's currently being held. He asked the follower to track down a list of men. Two of the five people mentioned are currently incarcerated for tax evasion, a third was released two years ago, and the fourth died in prison. Kent loves his tax evadin' pals. The Penningtons do not run in circles like this.

[Soulhuntress]

Well, this is the deal. It's entirely possible that the IRS has gone after them, and we wouldn't know about it, because there's an agreement in place and the Penningtons are paying the IRS. That said, I believe there is an order from a judge out there and the IRS owed the Penningtons some money due to defending themselves in a lawsuit.

Also, the Penningtons have been pretty much off the radar. The IRS is limited in the amount of money it has available to pursue tax evaders, so it goes after people who are pushing bogus tax shelters, pure trusts or sovereign citizen schemes to others. I suspect that jailed creationist evangelist Kent Hovind would not have popped up on the IRS's radar had he not been palling around with other tax evaders and promoting their whack tax theories in addition to his whack creationist theories. Even though Hovind is in prison for tax evasion, he continues to hold to the beliefs that put him there. Hovind called a follower up last week from the jail where he's currently being held. He asked the follower to track down a list of men. Two of the five people mentioned are currently incarcerated for tax evasion, a third was released two years ago, and the fourth died in prison. Kent loves his tax evadin' pals. The Penningtons do not run in circles like this.

Delilah this and the feds take a long time to build a case and hopefully the US attorney has this mess on their radar. :popcorn2:

[lucylauser]

Hey everyone, I've been following this thread for a couple days while waiting to have my account activated. I appreciate your support for Alecia/Faith.

She is a close friend of mine, so I've been involved with the situation since last October and also helped her manage emails and comments that came from going viral. I've known her family since 2010 or 2011, and used to be best friends with her older sister Grace (until I was shunned for believing wrong things). I've met them in person several times, and I also talked to some mutual friends who have known her family years longer than I have, to get as much of an objective view of the situation that I could.

I'm not a fan of talking about people when they're not present, so I'll try to avoid participating in any denigration of her parents. Obviously I'm on Faith's side and I agree that her parents have been involved in some shady shenanigans in response to her publicity. I totally disagree with their approach to parenting, their neglect to file birth certificates, and I am upset by their self-centered actions. I commented on their Facebook page, when they posted James's video response, and my comments were deleted and I was blocked--seems that anyone who exposes their inconsistencies or disagrees with them is going to be removed. That's basically how they deal with people who disagree.

Faith posted an update tonight that her father has started to cooperate, and agreed to sign any documents needed and give her any information she needs. She's also asking that people do not post demeaning comments about her parents. She says, "Even though I do not agree with them on many things, I would like their reputation to be protected as much as possible."

They are not horrible people, but it's true they have some major flaws. Let's just not forget that this is about helping Faith and other people in her situation, not about tearing down her parents and ruining their lives or reputations.

Thanks!

[lawlifelgbt]

Guys, Faith just posted to the Help Me Prove It FB page...said her dad is now willing to help her with any documentation, and to please not disparage her parents. They don't agree, but she wants to be civil. Did they just crack?

[Mama Mia]

why do i keep repeating myself?

they have adult kid drivers. they must have SOMETHING that is both acceptable and also that has not been filed with the state. that is LOGICAL.

and, what exactly do you propose alecia present without help from her parents? as i've beaten like a dead horse, it is highly illogical that she could just print a form and fill it out and have it be sufficient. specifics please, brownie, if you're going to insist that it can be done without her parents, why don't you list specifics that can be done? and don't use the application nonsense because i'm about 99% sure it has to be verified in some way and just printing it off and presenting it is not enough. that does not make sense in any manner, way, shape, or form. period. end of discussion.

I know this is going to sound illogical, because it is. And I am not bashing Alecia's motives, I think she is just overwhelmed and confused, as anyone would be.

BUT, Yes, there are MANY government agency programs and services that require proof of a negative, if you don't have proof of a positive.

That can mean, for example, doing things like getting statements from a social security office verifying you do not receive social security benefits. Or going to the welfare office, filling out an application in order to be denied so you have the denial letter, even if you knew you weren't eligible in the first place. Or filling out a drivers license application, even if you don't have the required documents, so that the clerk at the court can run the information on the application and verify there isn't already a drivers license for that person. The same with the social security application. It isn't picking up a blank application that helps with proof, it's having an official review it to ensure you don't already have whatever it is.

Because from the governments viewpoint it isn't just about Alecia obtaining the documents she needs to function, it's also about making sure she doesn't already have documents proving a valid identity. So that she can't commit fraud.

Does that make more sense? Trust me, I understand if it doesn't, but, honest, that's how it works :)

Also, I think another issue is that she is confused about terminology. I read a bit on her Facebook and watched the video. What stood out to me was that, again, my impression, was that she is using the term " court" to mean going before a Judge. So she is pushing to go before a Judge with her issues. When what she really just needs to do is submit her documents to the " court" which is likely actually a specific office.

I do think this has been harder than it absolutely needed to be, but these sorts of things are confusing at best.

Also, as far as the other adult children being able to get documents, I think it was probably relatively easy because the parents likely filled out and signed the affidavit.

From my reading of the lists of documents it appears that the primary document to obtain the birth certificate is the affidavit. And then to supplement that they will accept things like school records, social security application etc.

Just saw that the TIN is only for immigrants. Oops, sorry, I thought it might apply to some other folks too. It's not that bad to file for, you only need one of the documents listed and most folks I know use a Consular card. .... Hmmm.... Wonder what those chidults are going to do about taxes? :think: Searching around I found quite a few off - grid sites that give various ideas, most of which seem very iffy. Getting a TIN through a religous objection on a case by case basis seems to have worked for at least some people.

[Delilah]

Hey everyone, I've been following this thread for a couple days while waiting to have my account activated. I appreciate your support for Alecia/Faith.

She is a close friend of mine, so I've been involved with the situation since last October and also helped her manage emails and comments that came from going viral. I've known her family since 2010 or 2011, and used to be best friends with her older sister Grace (until I was shunned for believing wrong things). I've met them in person several times, and I also talked to some mutual friends who have known her family years longer than I have, to get as much of an objective view of the situation that I could.

I'm not a fan of talking about people when they're not present, so I'll try to avoid participating in any denigration of her parents. Obviously I'm on Faith's side and I agree that her parents have been involved in some shady shenanigans in response to her publicity. I totally disagree with their approach to parenting, their neglect to file birth certificates, and I am upset by their self-centered actions. I commented on their Facebook page, when they posted James's video response, and my comments were deleted and I was blocked--seems that anyone who exposes their inconsistencies or disagrees with them is going to be removed. That's basically how they deal with people who disagree.

Faith posted an update tonight that her father has started to cooperate, and agreed to sign any documents needed and give her any information she needs. She's also asking that people do not post demeaning comments about her parents. She says, "Even though I do not agree with them on many things, I would like their reputation to be protected as much as possible."

They are not horrible people, but it's true they have some major flaws. Let's just not forget that this is about helping Faith and other people in her situation, not about tearing down her parents and ruining their lives or reputations.

Thanks!

I'm glad you're here! I admire Faith for wanting to avoid ruining her parents' reputations. The two of you seem like very nice people.

I laughed when I read "shady shenanigans". What a cute user name that would be! :D

[lucylauser]

I'm glad you're here! I admire Faith for wanting to avoid ruining her parents' reputations. The two of you seem like very nice people.

I laughed when I read "shady shenanigans". What a cute user name that would be! :D

That would be a great username! Maybe I'll change mine.

Thank you for your kind words. I admit I've slipped into saying some rather mean things, mainly in her YouTube comments to people who know very little about the situation and were very rude themselves, but that's not what I want to be like and Faith's maturity has inspired me to be more careful.

[Mama Mia]

I just looked at the Texas guidelines for filing a delayed Birth Certificate.

I m glad her dad is helping her, I'm sure it will be much easier.

I think the main reason she is stuck is that she is confusing two things. In her Facebook photos she has a list dated Feb 10 detailing the steps she's taken and documents she has.

She needs to be submitting the forms and supporting documents as detailed in the guidelines.

IF they deny her application - probably due to not enough documentation THEN the next step is to schedule a hearing with a judge. That's what the manual says.

She's writing Senators and getting frantic because a Judge won't see her --- but at this point a Judge SHOULDN'T see her.

She has to get denied at the previous step first. That's the rule. She might even get approved at the first step, but she has to get official notice one way or another before a judge will consider her request.

So if she does submit the paperwork and gets turned down initially, she needs to know that doesn't mean she won't be approved, it just means that it needs to go before a judge.

She could also go through the below linked federal process to get a passport and then go from there.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passpor ... dence.html

Also, in that list, she states one of her documents is a notarized name change from just November 2014. What kind of I.D did she use for the name change? Why can't she use that now?

Also, in that list, she states the Department of Motor Vehicles accepted her proof of identity, but not her citizenship. What did she use to prove identity there?

[lucylauser]

I just looked at the Texas guidelines for filing a delayed Birth Certificate.

I m glad her dad is helping her, I'm sure it will be much easier.

I think the main reason she is stuck is that she is confusing two things. In her Facebook photos she has a list dated Feb 10 detailing the steps she's taken and documents she has.

She needs to be submitting the forms and supporting documents as detailed in the guidelines.

IF they deny her application - probably due to not enough documentation THEN the next step is to schedule a hearing with a judge. That's what the manual says.

She's writing Senators and getting frantic because a Judge won't see her --- but at this point a Judge SHOULDN'T see her.

She has to get denied at the previous step first. That's the rule. She might even get approved at the first step, but she has to get official notice one way or another before a judge will consider her request.

So if she does submit the paperwork and gets turned down initially, she needs to know that doesn't mean she won't be approved, it just means that it needs to go before a judge.

She could also go through the below linked federal process to get a passport and then go from there.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passpor ... dence.html

I believe she has submitted paperwork. That's what was denied. She submitted all the evidence she had, and it wasn't enough.

She has a lawyer now. I just wrote this update for my blog: https://castinglargeshadows.wordpress.c ... ennington/

[VVV]

Hey everyone, I've been following this thread for a couple days while waiting to have my account activated. I appreciate your support for Alecia/Faith.

She is a close friend of mine, so I've been involved with the situation since last October and also helped her manage emails and comments that came from going viral. I've known her family since 2010 or 2011, and used to be best friends with her older sister Grace (until I was shunned for believing wrong things). I've met them in person several times, and I also talked to some mutual friends who have known her family years longer than I have, to get as much of an objective view of the situation that I could.

I'm not a fan of talking about people when they're not present, so I'll try to avoid participating in any denigration of her parents. Obviously I'm on Faith's side and I agree that her parents have been involved in some shady shenanigans in response to her publicity. I totally disagree with their approach to parenting, their neglect to file birth certificates, and I am upset by their self-centered actions. I commented on their Facebook page, when they posted James's video response, and my comments were deleted and I was blocked--seems that anyone who exposes their inconsistencies or disagrees with them is going to be removed. That's basically how they deal with people who disagree.

Faith posted an update tonight that her father has started to cooperate, and agreed to sign any documents needed and give her any information she needs. She's also asking that people do not post demeaning comments about her parents. She says, "Even though I do not agree with them on many things, I would like their reputation to be protected as much as possible."

They are not horrible people, but it's true they have some major flaws. Let's just not forget that this is about helping Faith and other people in her situation, not about tearing down her parents and ruining their lives or reputations.

Thanks!

It's good that Faith has the support of friends like you.

I think the parents have done a pretty thorough job of denigrating themselves through their own words, videos and blog posts. And I don't think it is being disrespectful to say that based on his own words, Faith needs to be very very very careful in dealing with her father. I hope she has supportive people--plural, and at least one or two of imposing size--with her at any meetings with her parents. I fear for her future if she ever returns voluntarily or involuntarily to her parents' control.

[lucylauser]

It's good that Faith has the support of friends like you.

I think the parents have done a pretty thorough job of denigrating themselves through their own words, videos and blog posts. And I don't think it is being disrespectful to say that based on his own words, Faith needs to be very very very careful in dealing with her father. I hope she has supportive people--plural, and at least one or two of imposing size--with her at any meetings with her parents. I fear for her future if she ever returns voluntarily or involuntarily to her parents' control.

I agree. I wish I lived near her, because I'm a person of rather imposing size and I know a thing or two about mediating, and I don't trust her father at all (I was going to say farther than I could throw him but I might actually be able to throw him a few feet so that might not work). But I have to do what I can from several states away.

[carebaer]

Oh, and to the pp, I assume it varies by state. I know at least a few years ago in CA it wasn't a requirement. There are a large number of children in the state who did not arrive here with birth certificates and they are entitled to an education.

You do have to show proof of age in CA though. Most districts list a birth certificate as a requirement for enrollment. (Although there are alternate documents that also show proof of age. It appears to vary by district which of those documents are accepted.) While there is a large number of immigrant children in CA most do have a birth certificate or some birth record from their home country or a refugee camp.

[16strong]

So they haven't filed taxes since shortly after Faith was born? WOW. The Pennington parents are really up shit creek now. If IRS was interested before, they're REALLY going to be interested now. They may have finally decided to give Faith what she needs (I'll believe it when I see it), but they are sorely mistaken if they think that doing so will end their "woes." I think this is only the beginning.