Shraders in Zambia - Welcome to Poisonwood, Stephen- Part 3

[Palimpsest]

Sorry to repeat myself but what are "position on doctrinal repentance" that caused the church to drop him?

Patience. :) I think you would have had an answer if anyone knew for sure. We have some of the best former IFB minds on FJ pondering the question (that would not be me .) Honestly, it is all speculation and trying to puzzle out the seemingly deliberate obscure clues right now.

For those who have access to John's Facebook, paraphrases of his "clarifications" of his "position on doctrinal repentance" would be greatly appreciated.

[Palimpsest]

I would watch that. :lol:

:lol: I'm beginning to think that "Survivor" is the best analogy. :cracking-up:

[formergothardite]

Patience. :) I think you would have had an answer if anyone knew for sure. We have some of the best former IFB minds on FJ pondering the question (that would not be me .) Honestly, it is all speculation and trying to puzzle out the seemingly deliberate obscure clues right now.

For those who have access to John's Facebook, paraphrases of his "clarifications" of his "position on doctrinal repentance" would be greatly appreciated.

Perhaps it is the wine I've been drinking, but I have been reading more about the lordship salvation debate and I can't even think of a way to sum this shit up. I remember people arguing over when I was IFB but it is really hard for me to wrap my mind around it now. But I do think that Mama Mia was correct and John accused his sending church of believing in it because they were worried about that John hasn't appeared to be doing much in Zambia.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Patience. :) I think you would have had an answer if anyone knew for sure. We have some of the best former IFB minds on FJ pondering the question (that would not be me .) Honestly, it is all speculation and trying to puzzle out the seemingly deliberate obscure clues right now.

For those who have access to John's Facebook, paraphrases of his "clarifications" of his "position on doctrinal repentance" would be greatly appreciated.

Just went through it all now and he doesn't clarify. Just he takes a stance on it

[apple1]

Perhaps it is the wine I've been drinking, but I have been reading more about the lordship salvation debate and I can't even think of a way to sum this shit up. I remember people arguing over when I was IFB but it is really hard for me to wrap my mind around it now. But I do think that Mama Mia was correct and John accused his sending church of believing in it because they were worried about that John hasn't appeared to be doing much in Zambia.

I also am guessing that Mama Mia was correct. Just a guess.

[Palimpsest]

I also am guessing that Mama Mia was correct. Just a guess.

I think MamaMia was right too on the Lordship Salvation. To clarify: my "imaginary conversation" post was more intended to illustrate "fruits/works" vs " grace" than what I thought actually happened. It was truly meant to be facetious. :)

But this brings us back to the weirdness of repentance and "doctrinal repentance," which is how John seems to want to spin it. "Lordship salvation" seems to be a side bar and possible distraction from the real issue of repentance. Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

Help!

[SoybeanQueen]

I suspect the doctrinal repentance has to do with either John or his other missionary friend doing something that the other believed would require a public confession and request for forgiveness. Either the Rea guy thought John was in the wrong and demanded that he openly admit to his sins, which obviously John would disagree with, or the opposite, John believes Rea did him wrong and is mad that the church wouldn't call him out on it.

And it could be about the plane, which would be amusing. Maybe John is peeved that the sending church didn't force Rea to hand over the plane keys.

Driving the speculation bus here. I'm no IFB insider.

[nelliebelle1197]

The Rea site still has mentions of John in old posts. He has been edited but not erased. I wonder what Rea supporters think about the fact that it has been three years since Team Rea went live but Team Rea is still in the US? I am now wondering if Shrader didn't demand movement from Reas and Shrader was accused of expecting works instead of grace... After all, two missionaries can grift better than one and John's resources are shrinking.

[apple1]

But this brings us back to the weirdness of repentance and "doctrinal repentance," which is how John seems to want to spin it. "Lordship salvation" seems to be a side bar and possible distraction from the real issue of repentance. Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

I'm sure I am no help. (As previously stated) I'm former IFB. I have never heard the phrase "doctrinal repentance" in any IFB church I was ever in.

[snickerz]

...I do have him pegged as a Narcissist, because ...

Too long to quote the whole thing, but Jezebel, your post on narcisism was really eye-opening to me! It's dead on for John, but also for Jill Rodrigues & I think for Michelle Duggar too. Fascinating stuff!

[Evangeline]

I've been around the IFB block enough times to know that whenever people claim to part ways over doctrine, that's only the tip of the iceberg. It's considered godly and necessary to separate from someone with bad doctrine, and it can be spun into a good story that doesn't paint anyone in a bad light. It's bad form to ask for more details, because then you're gossiping. If you're willing to be the evil gossip, you can dig for the real story, though. The real story is always much more sordid, and almost always has something to do with money. I would put money on this having nothing to do with doctrine and everything to do with money.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Finding this discussion very interesting. FJ is lucky to have so many clever people who have been involved in fundamental churches

[uber frau]

I've been around the IFB block enough times to know that whenever people claim to part ways over doctrine, that's only the tip of the iceberg. It's considered godly and necessary to separate from someone with bad doctrine, and it can be spun into a good story that doesn't paint anyone in a bad light. It's bad form to ask for more details, because then you're gossiping. If you're willing to be the evil gossip, you can dig for the real story, though. The real story is always much more sordid, and almost always has something to do with money. I would put money on this having nothing to do with doctrine and everything to do with money.

I completely agree.

(Admittedly, most of what I know about IFB is from Stuff Fundies Like but from what I can see different groups of fundies have more in common than they would care to think.)

[Cheetah]

Too long to quote the whole thing, but Jezebel, your post on narcisism was really eye-opening to me! It's dead on for John, but also for Jill Rodrigues & I think for Michelle Duggar too. Fascinating stuff!

If you want to fall down another rabbit hole, the reddit forum 'raised by narcissists' is wonderful (and can be very maddening).

www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/

(I think I first heard about it here on another thread. Can't remember, though).

[Bethella]

If David swipes the plane from under John's nose and flies it himself that would be amazing.

Yes, the plane was purchased from a retiring missionary who could have absconded back to the US with the key. But why couldn't it be mailed back to John? I suspect that John is making the whole missing key story up to dodge awkward questions about the plane.

Tune in for the next episode of "As the Mission Crumbles": Where is the plane and who does it belong to? Will John ever find the key and fly again? Will David ever get to Zambia?

Can we please use "As the Mission Crumbles" as the next thread title? Please? Pretty Please? :lol:

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

^ yes! Might be time to start a new thread anyway!

[Mitz_]

Hey there are phone #'s on the bottom of the letter and they say we can call if we have questions! someone should call and ask, not me because I'm chicken and I don't speak fundie. I guess I could just say that The Lord laid it on my heart to ask and I have been burdened with the need to know.

[Palimpsest]

Possibly another clue or just adding to the confusion.

It seems that John doesn't identify as IFB these days -- he is a Biblical Historic Baptist! Whatever that is. He changed the credits on the "Pleasure - Treasure - Measure" video he posted back in October to " A Missions Message by Bro. John Shrader, Biblical Historic Baptist Missionary to Zambia and Beyond."

This does not appear on the earlier videos but the "Team Zambia " logo and the bolt of lightening are still there.

So perhaps a Biblical Historic Baptist repents differently from an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist?

[Palimpsest]

Hey there are phone #'s on the bottom of the letter and they say we can call if we have questions! someone should call and ask, not me because I'm chicken and I don't speak fundie. I guess I could just say that The Lord laid it on my heart to ask and I have been burdened with the need to know.

Do it! I'm far too chicken myself.

Mind you, they probably won't tell you anything unless you are on John's list of donors.

[Palimpsest]

I completely agree.

(Admittedly, most of what I know about IFB is from Stuff Fundies Like but from what I can see different groups of fundies have more in common than they would care to think.)

Misusing Matthew 18: 15-17 to forbid questioning by calling it slander and gossip is a hallmark of these authoritarian churches. Doug Phillips isn't IFB but this was precisely how he controlled BCA and hid his crimes for so long.

[formergothardite]

Has this blog post been discussed? It is from when John was traveling about trying to raise money. John was treated like a fundie star and people crowded around him wanting him to sign their Bibles. :? There is no way John is going back to a normal life after being treated this way.

nextgenerationreservation.blogspot.com/2013/10/just-in-lords-time.html

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Oh my god. Is that what it's really like for missionaries? Treated like celebrities? Yeah no way is John going back to a used car salesman job again if he can help it.

[KittenMitten]

Has this blog post been discussed? It is from when John was traveling about trying to raise money. John was treated like a fundie star and people crowded around him wanting him to sign their Bibles. :? There is no way John is going back to a normal life after being treated this way.

nextgenerationreservation.blogspot.com/2013/10/just-in-lords-time.html

All these picky little rules and slight differences between churches in the same denominations, such as Baptist, are so hard for me to follow. I need some sort of Venn diagram. Except I don't care.

Signing a bible. Isn't that sacreligious?

[formergothardite]

Oh my god. Is that what it's really like for missionaries? Treated like celebrities? Yeah no way is John going back to a used car salesman job again if he can help it.

I don't think it is like that for all missionaries, but I suspect John encouraged the behavior. In one of John's videos it shows him during his first trip to Zambia and he is walking down the road surrounded by kids who are beaming up at him. You can tell John is loving all the attention he is getting. Here in America, working a regular job, he would never have kids flock to him or have anyone ask him to sign their Bible. John craves the adoration and is not going to give up this lifestyle easily. The only way he will leave Zambia is if they kick him out.

People used to ask Bill Gothard to sign their Bibles. I always thought it was weird. It is supposed to be God's Holy Word and some human is signing it like they are the author? I think the sort of people who sign Bibles are the sort of people who think they are God's gift to this world.

[Joan of Snarc]

Bro. John Shrader, Biblical Historic Baptist Missionary to Zambia and Beyond."