Shraders in Zambia - Welcome to Poisonwood, Stephen- Part 3

[Palimpsest]

Thank you Palimpsest .

I am going to arm myself with a nice cold white wine and dive! :lol:

Strapping a bottle of white wine to rescue ferret 1. Ferret 2 usually carries chocolate but if you'd prefer sandwiches let me know!

[formergothardite]

Strapping a bottle of white wine to rescue ferret 1. Ferret 2 usually carries chocolate but if you'd prefer sandwiches let me know!

She is going to need it. XGG is a level of crazy all his own.

[GeoBQn]

I was reading this letter again and that he had to find a new church because the church was concerned about the responsibility of sending two families makes no sense. They were always planning on sending two families, it is just now that they families are not working together. But if they could send two families when they were a team they should be able to send two families when they aren't a team.

I have never heard of "lordship salvation". But since he brought it up he was either accused of believing in it or he accused churches of believing in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_s ... ontroversy

[klavierspieler]

Thank you. I think the only missionary we have discussed here who was disciplined (and hauled back fast from his mission to Mexico) by his sending church is Daniel Lockwood. They have never disclosed his actual sin but it must have been a big one.

Can you, FormerGothardite or anyone else with an IFB background make any sense of John's rambling doctrinal clarification in that context?

Agree with formergothardite, I think most likely he was accused of believing in it. To the best of my remembrance, lordship salvation is a creation of John McArthur's that says true Christians have fruit in their lives to prove they've been changed. This comes from not only accepting Jesus as Savior, but also accepting Jesus as Lord and submitting to him in every part of your life. If there isn't acceptable fruit in your life, you were never a true Christian to begin with. A lot of Christians, esp IFB, feel like this verges too much on works-based salvation and emphasize a grace only, once-saved-always-saved perspective on the whole thing.

Really it's a bunch of nit-picky nitty gritty, so I'm not going to swear I remember it exactly right. If anyone else has a better recollection or grasp on the details, maybe they can help me out.

[formergothardite]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_s ... ontroversy

I remember people arguing over this, I just didn't realize it was called that. It is a pretty big deal in some IFB churches. If he has done or said things that made people suspect he believed in Lordship salvation some churches would view him as a heretic and would explain why he lost a lot of support so fast.

[anjulibai]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_s ... ontroversy

Wow that is anal. They might as well debate the meaning of "is".

[nelliebelle1197]

Works vs grace is major theological tipping point for many and is a big deal in certain circles. Having been heavily exposed in an ifb academy for most of my childhood to the evils of works-based salvation I kinda get it. It was seriously something we studied as little kids!

[uber frau]

Splitting doctrinal hairs: A fantastic way to keep Christians from addressing the real problems in the world. (Just like Jesus did).

[gustava]

Would someone explain to me....in simple terms....what Grifter-Schrader has done that got him cut off by the sending church?

[apple1]

Would someone explain to me....in simple terms....what Grifter-Schrader has done that got him cut off by the sending church?

I'm not sure. I see the "doctrinal disagreement" deal as an excuse, with a strong possibility that the real reason is something that I don't think we know - whether it is a "moral failing", misuse of funds, untruthfulness/lack of accountability with the supporting churches about use of funds...

[Palimpsest]

Would someone explain to me....in simple terms....what Grifter-Schrader has done that got him cut off by the sending church?

I'm struggling with this one too. I can only put it in terms of a totally imaginary conversation (IFB experts/theologians please correct any and all misinterpretations)

Shrader: Need more money!

Sending church: John you are way too expensive. You are a bottomless pit. And where is that plane? BTW, David Rea is almost at 100%. We need to get him to Zambia soon to keep you in line. He needs the $$ more than you and at least had the sense to apply for his residency permit in advance!

Shrader: Noooo! I was here first and I have converts! Arcade, almost Roderick and those 7th Day Adventist guys might convert. Send me the $$$ now! Screw David!

Sending church: You are boasting about fruits of your labor. That sounds dangerously Papist. You are not walking with the Lord because you are not toeing the saved by grace alone line.

Shrader: Fuck you. I have a direct line to God. I am too saved by grace alone -- but look at the fruits of my labor. I grifted two printers and a plane. What has Rea done? He only scored one printer. Give me the money.

Sending church: Repent those words or you are off TeamZamibia and need to find another sending church!

Shrader: Not going to repent. I hate organized religion and churches who try to tell me I'm wrong. Daddy will bail me out! He's done that lots of times.

Sending church: Okeydokey! Bye bye.

Shrader runs away to Daddy and drafts newsletter trying to prove that he is indeed saved by grace alone even though Sending Church dropped him.

[formergothardite]

I'm not sure. I see the "doctrinal disagreement" deal as an excuse, with a strong possibility that the real reason is something that I don't think we know - whether it is a "moral failing", misuse of funds, untruthfulness/lack of accountability with the supporting churches about use of funds...

I agree I think that the doctrinal disagreement might have been an excuse that they used or it was combined with some other problem. Perhaps doctrinal disagreement + there is an entire fucking plane and possibly two tons of paper that have gone missing.

Whatever it was, John pissed off a lot of people. I can't wait till the Rea family gets there. If John manages to stay that long he will turn it into a missionary duel. :popcorn2:

[SPHASH]

Where's Sharon Bailgoat and Shrader Friend?

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

I'm struggling with this one too. I can only put it in terms of a totally imaginary conversation (IFB experts/theologians please correct any and all misinterpretations)

Shrader: Need more money!

Sending church: John you are way too expensive. You are a bottomless pit. And where is that plane? BTW, David Rea is almost at 100%. We need to get him to Zambia soon to keep you in line. He needs the $$ more than you and at least had the sense to apply for his residency permit in advance!

Shrader: Noooo! I was here first and I have converts! Arcade, almost Roderick and those 7th Day Adventist guys might convert. Send me the $$$ now! Screw David!

Sending church: You are boasting about fruits of your labor. That sounds dangerously Papist. You are not walking with the Lord because you are not toeing the saved by grace alone line.

Shrader: Fuck you. I have a direct line to God. I am too saved by grace alone -- but look at the fruits of my labor. I grifted two printers and a plane. What has Rea done? He only scored one printer. Give me the money.

Sending church: Repent those words or you are off TeamZamibia and need to find another sending church!

Shrader: Not going to repent. I hate organized religion and churches who try to tell me I'm wrong. Daddy will bail me out! He's done that lots of times.

Sending church: Okeydokey! Bye bye.

Shrader runs away to Daddy and drafts newsletter trying to prove that he is indeed saved by grace alone even though Sending Church dropped him.

Bravo!

[thoughtful]

I can totally see john flying a crop duster.

I picture it just like this:

[bBvideo 560,340:jqgegsti]

[/bBvideo]

Oh, and John, since your complaint about the music at the car dealership, I hope you have learned that there is no such adjective as "obstinato."

There is a musical term "ostinato," and it is a noun, referring to a repeated motif, generally in the same voice or part, often on the same pitch. Listen to Ravel's Bolero, if you aren't afraid it will inflame your passions, for a good example of a very obstinate ostinato.

Now, come home, get a job, and support your family.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Packing up a large family and moving all of them plus all their crap they just had to bring had to have been quite an undertaking. (We've moved 3 times, all within 30 mins or less of driving distance, with our one child and I plan to never, ever do it again!) Imagine if John could've put a fraction of that effort into a REAL JOB.

His resume reads like that of maybe a 19-22 year-old. And why do fundies substitute in evil public schools?

P.S. John, in my state all you need is a high school diploma or equivalent to be a sub, as far as education goes. It's not exactly something to brag about. It's an honest day's work and I'm not putting it down at all because my dad subbed when times were tight and he did alright. But he also has a degree that allowed him a couple long-time gigs filling in for teachers on leave, with a bit better pay.

[Mama Mia]

I'm going to go the other direction in the works vs grace dispute.

My bet is that Shrader is accusing the Sending church as being works based. As in they wanted him to show some examples of actual work he has accomplished. Instead of simply accepting that grace is enough and everything he does is just peachy-keen.

[formergothardite]

I'm going to go the other direction in the works vs grace dispute.

My bet is that Shrader is accusing the Sending church as being works based. As in they wanted him to show some examples of actual work he has accomplished. Instead of simply accepting that grace is enough and everything he does is just peachy-keen.

That could be true. I can see John flipping out over anything he perceived as the sending church trying to control him, even if it is something as simple as "Where is the plane you were bought?" or "What happened to that printing ministry you were supposed to start?" John seems like the type of guy who would resist any sort of accountability.

I don't think John was ever a substitute teacher. His flair for exaggeration makes me think that he taught CharacterFirst! in public schools while he was still in ATI and he turned that into being an actual teacher.

I would love to hear ShraderFriend's thoughts on John being dropped by his sending church. Is he buying that sorry excuse of a story or is he starting to see John for who he really is?

[apple1]

I'm going to go the other direction in the works vs grace dispute.

My bet is that Shrader is accusing the Sending church as being works based. As in they wanted him to show some examples of actual work he has accomplished. Instead of simply accepting that grace is enough and everything he does is just peachy-keen.

Wow. :) You nailed it, I think.

[Howl]

I didn't realize that John had a background with ATI. Did he leave gothard world under a cloud? Could he go back and work for them? He is, after all, a creature of their own creation, right?

I was surprised to hear he didn't believe in actually belonging to a church; I guess he is just TOO speshul a snowflake for that. How exquisitely ironic, then, that he expects organized congregations (churches) to fund his "work".

Thinking back over this entire fiasco, John was selling congregations his FANTASY of being a missionary, when they believed they were supporting his VISION to work in the mission field. Now they are finally understanding the difference.

Does anyone have a link to more information on the Rea family?

[formergothardite]

I didn't realize that John had a background with ATI. Did he leave gothard world under a cloud? Could he go back and work for them? He is, after all, a creature of their own creation, right?

I was surprised to hear he didn't believe in actually belonging to a church; I guess he is just TOO speshul a snowflake for that. How exquisitely ironic, then, that he expects organized congregations (churches) to fund his "work".

Thinking back over this entire fiasco, John was selling congregations his FANTASY of being a missionary, when they believed they were supporting his VISION to work in the mission field. Now they are finally understanding the difference.

Does anyone have a link to more information on the Rea family?

That is the perfect description of what John did. He was all about the missionary fantasy.

John was raised in ATI but has called Gothard a false teacher.

I was reading some of his old tweets that people posted here and at one point he claimed he bought his own vehicles, purchased a house and paid his own debts. I wonder how if family feels reading that knowing that they are the ones that bought him a van, paid off his house and paid off his debts. I think that John gets so caught up in his fantasy world that he forgets what really happened. I'm sure that in the future he will describe his time in Zambia as him trekking through the bush, fighting off wild animals, and saving souls by the hundreds.

[Buzzard]

I'm struggling with this one too. I can only put it in terms of a totally imaginary conversation (IFB experts/theologians please correct any and all misinterpretations)

Shrader: Need more money!

Sending church: John you are way too expensive. You are a bottomless pit. And where is that plane? BTW, David Rea is almost at 100%. We need to get him to Zambia soon to keep you in line. He needs the $$ more than you and at least had the sense to apply for his residency permit in advance!

Shrader: Noooo! I was here first and I have converts! Arcade, almost Roderick and those 7th Day Adventist guys might convert. Send me the $$$ now! Screw David!

Sending church: You are boasting about fruits of your labor. That sounds dangerously Papist. You are not walking with the Lord because you are not toeing the saved by grace alone line.

Shrader: Fuck you. I have a direct line to God. I am too saved by grace alone -- but look at the fruits of my labor. I grifted two printers and a plane. What has Rea done? He only scored one printer. Give me the money.

Sending church: Repent those words or you are off TeamZamibia and need to find another sending church!

Shrader: Not going to repent. I hate organized religion and churches who try to tell me I'm wrong. Daddy will bail me out! He's done that lots of times.

Sending church: Okeydokey! Bye bye.

Shrader runs away to Daddy and drafts newsletter trying to prove that he is indeed saved by grace alone even though Sending Church dropped him.

For some reason I read this with a british accent and imagined the parties wearing wigs and robes a la Henry 8th...

[Belugaloo]

I finally realized why it is so shocking to me for someone to literally become a missionary in Zambia and only attempt to win souls- not really help with the poverty issues, etc. So 700 Club was on this morning, and before I switched the channel, they started talking about helping a little girl in China who was deaf. Her Father could not afford the hearing aids so they bought them, and paid for a full year for the girl to go to a special school (I think that is what it was, anyway.)

When the 700 club is doing better than you, you know something is wrong!

[Gobsmacked]

I hope the Ferrets arrived back safely! :D

Oh.my.goodness. I spent a CRAZY time down the X-G Greg rabbit hole,

Stayed too long and grazed my knees and elbows trying to scramble out very very quickly! :lol:

Thank you for the info palimpsest .

I won't be returning though!!

Now back to Shrader watching. :popcorn2:

[Gobsmacked]

Thoughtful, you definitely helped with my post rabbit hole rehab!! :lol: