Shraders in Zambia - Welcome to Poisonwood, Stephen- Part 3

[formergothardite]

So is john a con artist or just really hopeless?

Watching with interest!

I don't think he starts out thinking he is going to con people, but I do think that he is so self-absorbed and wrapped up in his fantasy world that he doesn't think anything of constantly taking from others and doing whatever he wants with the funds and supplies others give him. He has grand ideas but is a terrible planner and doesn't appear to like doing the boring day to day stuff that would make these plans work. I am sure that he probably really intended to run a printing ministry and drive into the bush to deliver Bibles. But when he lost interest in these projects because it wasn't easy, he didn't think anything of just dropping them and jumping to something else even though he has spent so much of other people's money on them.

[SPHASH]

I don't think he starts out thinking he is going to con people, but I do think that he is so self-absorbed and wrapped up in his fantasy world that he doesn't think anything of constantly taking from others and doing whatever he wants with the funds and supplies others give him. He has grand ideas but is a terrible planner and doesn't appear to like doing the boring day to day stuff that would make these plans work. I am sure that he probably really intended to run a printing ministry and drive into the bush to deliver Bibles. But when he lost interest in these projects because it wasn't easy, he didn't think anything of just dropping them and jumping to something else even though he has spent so much of other people's money on them.

Like when that crying girl gave him all her graduation money, it was pretty good amount too. He should have politely declined it. When I say con artist, I'm referring to Arcade possibly being a plant and not being truthful about Arnaud's financial state.

[Palimpsest]

Sure!

Since Arnaud appears to be fairly well off, I don't think it is that bad that he paid for the taxi and bought John soda to drink. John clearly didn't want people to realize that the people he was hanging out with weren't living in huts on the brink of starvation. I'm not really sure why he wanted people to think that he took money to buy "carnal" things from people who couldn't afford to give him that money, but that was apparently the image he was going for.

I don't remember Arcade being discussed as a plant! How did I miss that?! John is actually getting to be more interesting than the Poisonwood Bible. What crazy shenanigans is he going to get up to next? :popcorn2:

For the bolded, A like is not enough, Formergothardite! I bow to your way with words.

For the rest, in reverse order. See my post above on the Arcade plant issue. Apparently, that discussion was in my head only. :embarrassed:

Re. Arnaud being comparatively well off? Well yes, I think he probably is - for Zambia.

BUT! Insert fair warning for major over-generalizations about Africa and Africans ahead!

Arnaud dresses really well (love that red jacket) and seems to have disposable income. He has a very spiffy wardrobe and several jackets. Or he rents jackets for photo ops because he wants to be cool. He seems to be single (thus the disposable income) but may also be the sole support of his mother.

Dressing well and offering to pay for taxis does not mean that Arnaud is rich by any US standards. The way he dresses and the way he lives may be very far apart. He does seem to be educated but his standard of living may well seem like "poverty" to John's eyes. Professionals in Africa do dress well because it is expected. (They are also likely to be rolling their eyes behind the backs of slovenly Westerners in T-shirts, unpressed clothes, and scruffy jeans. Have they no pride?) They are going to care for a very small professional wardrobe meticulously. If you only have one "good" shirt, then that shirt will be washed, ironed and starched every night impeccably to prepare for the next day.

I don't think it is bad that Arnaud invited John and David for dinner. I would expect it. I would also expect Arnaud (most Africans) to fall over themselves in generous hospitality to a visitor and offer to pay for taxis, buy drinks, and put on a gourmet banquet for visitors -- even if they blew an entire month's food budget and rent on the entertainment and hospitality.

In my experience, the appropriate response from the guest in Africa is to tactfully downplay the over-the-top feasting. My family always said - thank you so much for the invitation, just so you know, we don't drink alcohol or eat goat or cow. That helped to avoid an overly extravagant meal. We always brought a really generous gift for the host, and definitely refused the offer of transport home. WTF were John and David doing accepting all those taxi rides? They should have said no.

And you know, that isn't so far off Western etiquette either. Or is it? Perhaps I'm just a weird Third Culture Adult but I bring some sort of gift when I am invited anywhere. I ask if I can contribute to the meal -- but if that is refused, I turn up with (depending on the host) small gift, chocolate, wine, sparkling non-alcoholic apple juice, a loaf of bread, flowers or a pot plant. I also don't expect my hosts to pay for my transport home. Who does?

John and David ate and drank their way through Burundi and took advantage of Arnaud's hospitality in John's own words. They were ultimate Ugly Americans - whether Arnaud is rich and could afford those grifters or not.

[Palimpsest]

You didn't miss that conversation about Arcade being a plant, Palimpsest now believes that was a conversation she had with herself. It kinda worries me that I find that totally understandable.

Thank you , Palimpsest , for offering to send the rescue Ferrets for me but I made it out o.k...

To the bolded, me too! Thanks for understanding my confusion. I think.

Perhaps I'm the person who needs those rescue ferrets! :lol:

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Does any one know if John has ever used the printing press and paper?

Gosh I don't think he has mentioned it for months!

Anyone else know more?

[Gobsmacked]

Thank you palimpsest for offering the ferrets once again. I skimmed thru old pages and left quickly. :?

I wonder if John shares any information about their financial situation with Esther, or just pats her on the head and tells her to run back to the children/kitchen and leave the IMPORTANT stuff to him?

If Arcade is a plant again would Esther know?

I'm extremely confused now. :popcorn2:

[formergothardite]

Like when that crying girl gave him all her graduation money, it was pretty good amount too. He should have politely declined it. When I say con artist, I'm referring to Arcade possibly being a plant and not being truthful about Arnaud's financial state.

When it comes to things like that I'm not sure if he purposely tries to deceive people or if he is just so caught up in his little missionary fantasy world that he doesn't even realize how much he lies anymore. I don't think he views it as lying either. I think he has found a way to justify to himself stretching the truth and lying by omission. He needed a convert for his missionary fantasy, but it is very suspicious that Arcade lived and studied not far from where John's father lived.

[salex]

I wonder if part of his being so tone deaf about taking things from others, not bringing even a token of a gift (candy for the kids even) when he is a guest, not buying a round of sodas or paying for his own cab is part and parcel of the entitlement that comes from the whole deputation process?

The process of deputation (from what I can tell-- this is coming from someone who has never seen it in real life) appears to be John going in to a group of people, telling him that God has picked him for this "thing" and God wants them to pay for him, God's chosen, to do this.

And they give him money. And have him sign their bibles. And it is likely he never pays for anything when other people are around (meals, cokes, gasoline, whatever). Pretty soon, he becomes a little demi royalty-- no need for money in his pocket and he can walk with his hands behind his back because someone will always open the door for him.

And, in his "pre deputation days" I don't see him OR Esther being the "hostess gift" sort of people. I doubt they studied, or took seriously, any cultural expectations of other countries. After all, why bring a gift when they are offering the "correct" interpetation fo Christ to the wrongminded Christians in Zambia?

[Gobsmacked]

Now I'm wondering if the whole baptism of Arcade was real. :(

[KittenMitten]

Is Arcade a person that Stephen saved in Africa, but would not help with real life issues like starvation? What about the part about being a plant again, does that mean Arcade was an audiance plant?

[SPHASH]

Now I'm wondering if the whole baptism of Arcade was real. :(

It didn't look like there were a whole lot of people there, a few younger local kids and John's kids.

[Palimpsest]

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I don't think Arcade is a plant -- meaning a person from Katy, TX that Shrader is pretending to have converted in Burundi. It is just too far fetched, even for me.

For that to be true not just John and Esther, but also David Rea, Bro. Douglas, Arnaud, Eddy, all the people in Katy, TX who have ever met Arcade including Daddy Shrader's church members, would all have to be in on the dirty secret. John has posted about Arcade for ages and surely someone would have spilled the beans by now if he is a total fake.

I think, as I said above, it's far more likely that somehow Arcade followed John (his hero and teacher) back to the US and lived with Daddy Shrader/a church member while spending perhaps a single semester at Sam Houston University. Then he moved from Bujumbura - or Katy - to Kafue. Again following his guru, John. He just messed up on his FB "About" page.

Speculation only: I'd find it hard to believe that John himself is helping Arcade financially, but his sad story (orphaned in the war, no family, true "convert" pining to know the real Jebus) could have touched someone's heart and they offered to sponsor him to train with John. I also think that John has, or had, at least one big bucks donor. One able to hand over 15K for a plane with only a few hours notice! I found a definite link between John and the VF Hazardous Journeys crew way back when, so Jim Leininger is a possibility for a big bucks donor. He donates a lot to missionaries and, as he was vulnerable to DPIAT's con artist personality, he could well be susceptible to John's act.

I also think that John does believe he is honest. In PR/political terms he "spins." This is not a dictionary definition just my mind meandering: he doesn't outright lie but manipulates and deceives people disingenuously and he deflects and distracts attention from things he doesn't want his followers to know. And that is fine in his world view. He thinks it is perfectly OK to twist the truth, lie by omission, and blame Satan for his own mistakes because it is all in the service of God.

[Mitz_]

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I don't think Arcade is a plant -- meaning a person from Katy, TX that Shrader is pretending to have converted in Burundi. It is just too far fetched, even for me.

For that to be true not just John and Esther, but also David Rea, Bro. Douglas, Arnaud, Eddy, all the people in Katy, TX who have ever met Arcade including Daddy Shrader's church members, would all have to be in on the dirty secret. John has posted about Arcade for ages and surely someone would have spilled the beans by now if he is a total fake.

I think, as I said above, it's far more likely that somehow Arcade followed John (his hero and teacher) back to the US and lived with Daddy Shrader/a church member while spending perhaps a single semester at Sam Houston University. Then he moved from Bujumbura - or Katy - to Kafue. Again following his guru, John. He just messed up on his FB "About" page.

Speculation only: I'd find it hard to believe that John himself is helping Arcade financially, but his sad story (orphaned in the war, no family, true "convert" pining to know the real Jebus) could have touched someone's heart and they offered to sponsor him to train with John. I also think that John has, or had, at least one big bucks donor. One able to hand over 15K for a plane with only a few hours notice! I found a definite link between John and the VF Hazardous Journeys crew way back when, so Jim Leininger is a possibility for a big bucks donor. He donates a lot to missionaries and, as he was vulnerable to DPIAT's con artist personality, he could well be susceptible to John's act.

I also think that John does believe he is honest. In PR/political terms he "spins." This is not a dictionary definition just my mind meandering: he doesn't outright lie but manipulates and deceives people disingenuously and he deflects and distracts attention from things he doesn't want his followers to know. And that is fine in his world view. He thinks it is perfectly OK to twist the truth, lie by omission, and blame Satan for his own mistakes because it is all in the service of God.

Your "spin definition is a very good fit for John. It sounds like narcissism . I see John as being the narcissist poster child . A cut and paste from somewhere:

"Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Some lies maintain the facade of the False Self: the perfect, superior self the narcissist thinks she is or pretends to be. On a more conscious level, lies are central to:

* Staying in power and keeping things under control

* Keeping the flow of narcissistic supply (adulation by others, which are like ambrosia to the NP)

* Satisfying the grandiose, entitled self

* Avoiding any shame if their status is not as high in reality as they think it should be

* Minimizing the onerous possibility of having to concern himself with your needs."

...I've seen enough to say that he definitely does lie. He just makes the lie fit into his version of reality.

I don't think Arcade has ever been to Katy either, it is probably some sort of language stumbling block that caused him to put that on FB. It just doesn't make much sence. But I wouldn't put it past John or all of those other people to cover something up and keep it out of the public eye as much as possible. They talk about things among themselves and some others in their church group but don't put it on Facebook or anything like that. Obviously there is something going on with John right now and no doubt a lot of people know about it. His father said something about how he hopes that people who really know John are not ignorant of how the devil works. In other words, those terrible things John is being accused of are just not true, the devil has gotten all up in that church that dumped him and therein lies the problem. I have a feeling that Daddy has a lot of experience in covering John's butt. What was Mr. Keller thinking when he handed Esther over to him?

[Howl]

Just checked the Website for the Tricounty Baptist Church in Katy, Tx.

Pastor is Rick Shrader and John Shrader is assistant pastor.

Compared to some church Web sites, it is pretty slim, but

We have a strong commitment to Missions and practice a Faith Promise Giving program to support like-minded missionaries around the world.

I wondered if part of the issue ("From: Katy" is that John helped Arcade set up his FB page.

[slickcat79]

Is Arcade a person that Stephen saved in Africa, but would not help with real life issues like starvation? What about the part about being a plant again, does that mean Arcade was an audiance plant?

John's story is that he met Arcade when he and David Rea went to visit Burundi a couple of years ago. After John arrived in Zambia, Arcade came to live in a house nearby which John rented along with his family's accommodations. John used to claim that house was strictly for his ministry students, but now that no further students have materialized he is using it as his church. Arcade was supposedly orphaned due to partisan attacks in Burundi, but I believe that was some years ago. The last period of major violence was in the mid 90s.

Roderick is a local man that John met after arriving in Zambia. Apparently Roderick's father was poisoned by a family member :? and died, leaving his family without support. They were 7th day adventists, and John has managed to convert Roderick from Christianity to Christianity. He has given several testimonies about his conversion, but AFAIK has not been baptized. It was Roderick's family that John mentioned not being able to support on a continuing basis.

John actually made an extensive entry about Roderick back in September. He also mentioned in the September newsletter that he'd received the funds to buy his $6K copier, and planned to pick it up within the week. He then made an entry in early October saying that he'd gotten the "marvelous miracle machine" and they had it at the house. I summarized these entries earlier in the thread, but I can't find them on his FB anymore. I'd be fully willing to believe that it's some kind of FB glitch or an oversight on my part, but I'm wondering if John has gone back to edit a few things. If anyone else can find these old entries, I'd be interested in a refresher.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

So he has the printing press but hasn't used it?

Seriously what is the obsession with printing presses when there are so many cheap ways to print flyers/tracts etc?

To me it's like an un-talented person sewing clothes by hand, why would you do that when you can buy them from a shop for cheaper, quicker and better quality?

What am I missing?

[slickcat79]

Okay, I found the entry about the printer through John's pictures. From 10/1/14:

Marvelous Miracle Machine that makes Possible Printing and Publishing of God's Powerful Printed Page with His Promise of Pardon! Praise the Prince of Peace!

Wow, I can't believe this wonderful tool for printing gospel tracts, as well as discipleship and training material, is actually sitting in our house!!! This high speed machine makes 90 copies per minute and the cost of ink is only .004 cents per copy! I haven't worked out a cost per sheet of paper yet, but that's dirt cheap compared to what printing costs here in Zambia! Pinch me, I must be dreaming!! We are so thankful for a giving church that sacrificially gave a 6,000.00 love offering for this machine! I love how God did it and simply must share the story with you!

(*see the picture of the copier/printer below. This machine is made by the same company that makes Ricoh and Gestetner branded printers, but they use a different brand here in Africa)

One day, in a land far, far away (America), I was sitting there talking with the pastor and some church members after a meal as part of missions conference, and we were discussing our plan of printing Gospel tracts and training materials, when the pastor asked me how much a machine costs. I had been told by a friend we could get a used one for less than three thousand, and take it over on the container with us. To that point that had been our plan. I told him that, but also said I would check again with my friend. That was on Saturday night. Long story short, when I checked that night, I found that he had learned the machines for the US are a different hertz than the ones on Africa, as well as voltage! That completely submarined my plan to buy used and take with us!

The next morning at the missions conference after the morning service, the pastor suddenly asked me from the pulpit again, quoting the price of 2,500.00! Imagine my discomfort of having to share, from the pew, about what I had learned the evening before, and that the price would be more than double as we would have to buy the machine there! Awkward, but it was a direct question. I answered it, then what happened next left me In shock.

The pastor led the church to take a love offering, challenging them to give sacrificially. Incredibly, they gave 6,100.00! I was speechless!! God knew that printing and copying is incredibly expensive in Africa, and we have a great need for far more than we could ever produce!

We welcome you to praise God with us and pray with us for the powerful potential of the printed page! As David cried in Psalm 26:7 and 68:7,

"That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works."

"The Lord gave the Word: great was the company of those that published it."

I also love the application in Isaiah 52:7!

"How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation.." (Isaiah 52:7)

Isn't God so very incredible and amazing!?!

- Bro. John Shrader

I don't know that he's used it since :?

[salex]

Do we even know if he bought the printer. That picture could have been taken anywhere--warehouse, sales floor-- it is not hooked up to anything.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

I wish shraderfriend would come back.

[slickcat79]

Do we even know if he bought the printer. That picture could have been taken anywhere--warehouse, sales floor-- it is not hooked up to anything.

No. As always, we only have what John chooses to share. That is what the inside of their house looks like though, and it would be a clear and blatant lie if he didn't actually buy it. No messing around with the idea that he doesn't mean to mislead people.

The January newsletter. More vaguebooking:

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

So I've been messaging a person with inside information on John. I can't say anymore as he/she does not want to be identified. This person may be lying to me but I don't think so.

So apparently the problems are too do with Lordship salvation;

His/her response to that question; Yes - and than he tried to cover it up / spin it because realizations were being made as to what he believed

Also said churches where starting to see him for who he is and losing support

Also said having met him we are on the right track as to our personality assessments of him.

Anyone have any burning questions? He/she may or may not answer them but I'll ask

Also I have been given permission to share what he/she told me.

[snickerz]

According to Daddy's FB, our friend John is in danger of losing $2,000 a month in support because of this "repentance" problem. It is of course the work of Satan. In order to thwart Satan, send money.

[Mitz_]

So I've been messaging a person with inside information on John. I can't say anymore as he/she does not want to be identified. This person may be lying to me but I don't think so.

So apparently the problems are too do with Lordship salvation;

His/her response to that question; Yes - and than he tried to cover it up / spin it because realizations were being made as to what he believed

Also said churches where starting to see him for who he is and losing support

Also said having met him we are on the right track as to our personality assessments of him.

Anyone have any burning questions? He/she may or may not answer them but I'll ask

Also I have been given permission to share what he/she told me.

Excellent, MMM . I don't know if your source will know the answers but I'm interested in:

Is there an explanation about the plane other than "someone else has the key" ?

Are the children O.K.?

[Howl]

I just did a very quick trip down the Lorship salvation rabbit hole but quickly clawed my way out. I can't even begin to understand this (it seems like hairsplitting to me), but apparently it is a fraught doctrinal issue that erupts like a volcano periodically among Evangelicals and is a Big Deal.

MMM, this is incredibly juicy stuff. When are the Rea family due in Africa?

Here is a summary of the controversy from Christianity Today

The forerunner of the current debate erupted in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Two well-known evangelicals, Everett F. Harrison and John R. W. Stott, debated the issue in Eternity magazine in September 1959. Harrison was the first professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary and Stott was at the time rector of All Souls Church in London. Harrison took the position that, while the acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord is essential to salvation, the demand that "one must make Jesus his Lord as well as his Savior to be truly redeemed" is to confuse salvation with the legitimate obligations of the Christian life. Stott, on the other hand, insisted that one must "surrender to the Lordship of Christ" to be saved. "Lordship Salvation," then, is the claim that, to be saved, one must not only believe and acknowledge that Christ is Lord, but also submit to his lordship.

In his 1969 book Balancing the Christian Life, Charles C. Ryrie, who was then professor of systematic theology at Dallas Theological Seminary, made the claim, now widely cited, that one could have Christ as Savior without having him as Lord. This rekindled the controversy throughout the 1970s. In my opinion, Ryrie was misunderstood. What he was trying to say was that a genuine believer might not always be walking in the light.

One final name important to the current debate is Zane C. Hodges, former professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary. His book, The Gospel Under Siege (Redencion Viva, 1981), contains the charge that much evangelical gospel preaching is guilty of compromising the grace of the gospel. Hodges insists that there is no necessary connection between saving faith and works. In fact, to insist on good works as the evidence of salvation introduces obedience into the plan of salvation, compromising seriously, if not fatally, the freeness of the gospel offer.

Some parts of this make it seem like believers have Stockholm syndrome instead of a loving relationship with Jesus. But ya gotta get it right, because otherwise you could burn for an eternity in a lake o' fire.

[nelliebelle1197]

For the bolded, A like is not enough, Formergothardite! I bow to your way with words.

For the rest, in reverse order. See my post above on the Arcade plant issue. Apparently, that discussion was in my head only. :embarrassed:

Re. Arnaud being comparatively well off? Well yes, I think he probably is - for Zambia.

BUT! Insert fair warning for major over-generalizations about Africa and Africans ahead!

Arnaud dresses really well (love that red jacket) and seems to have disposable income. He has a very spiffy wardrobe and several jackets. Or he rents jackets for photo ops because he wants to be cool. He seems to be single (thus the disposable income) but may also be the sole support of his mother.

Dressing well and offering to pay for taxis does not mean that Arnaud is rich by any US standards. The way he dresses and the way he lives may be very far apart. He does seem to be educated but his standard of living may well seem like "poverty" to John's eyes. Professionals in Africa do dress well because it is expected. (They are also likely to be rolling their eyes behind the backs of slovenly Westerners in T-shirts, unpressed clothes, and scruffy jeans. Have they no pride?) They are going to care for a very small professional wardrobe meticulously. If you only have one "good" shirt, then that shirt will be washed, ironed and starched every night impeccably to prepare for the next day.

I don't think it is bad that Arnaud invited John and David for dinner. I would expect it. I would also expect Arnaud (most Africans) to fall over themselves in generous hospitality to a visitor and offer to pay for taxis, buy drinks, and put on a gourmet banquet for visitors -- even if they blew an entire month's food budget and rent on the entertainment and hospitality.

In my experience, the appropriate response from the guest in Africa is to tactfully downplay the over-the-top feasting. My family always said - thank you so much for the invitation, just so you know, we don't drink alcohol or eat goat or cow. That helped to avoid an overly extravagant meal. We always brought a really generous gift for the host, and definitely refused the offer of transport home. WTF were John and David doing accepting all those taxi rides? They should have said no.

And you know, that isn't so far off Western etiquette either. Or is it? Perhaps I'm just a weird Third Culture Adult but I bring some sort of gift when I am invited anywhere. I ask if I can contribute to the meal -- but if that is refused, I turn up with (depending on the host) small gift, chocolate, wine, sparkling non-alcoholic apple juice, a loaf of bread, flowers or a pot plant. I also don't expect my hosts to pay for my transport home. Who does?

John and David ate and drank their way through Burundi and took advantage of Arnaud's hospitality in John's own words. They were ultimate Ugly Americans - whether Arnaud is rich and could afford those grifters or not.

So the former MK is turning up with a POT plant?? :naughty: