Texas court rules against homeschoolers who expected rapture

[formergothardite]

I think a good start would be requiring yearly testing done in a way that the parents can't cheat and then compare to how children in public school are doing like they do in Arkansas.

There is another homeschool survey being done and it asks more detailed questions than Brian Ray ever dreamed of asking. I have heard several homeschoolers saying that they are worried what it will show and that it will lead to stricter requirements for homeschoolers.

I was discussing this subject with my mom since she knew/knows more homeschooling families and she homeschooled from the early 90's all the way till a couple of years ago. Her conclusion was that there needs to be more oversight because parents are not educating their children. She found that when there were stricter requirements only the parents who were willing to put in the hard work opted for homeschooling, but as the requirements got less and less the number of parents who weren't willing to put in the hard work it takes to homeschool, but for whatever reason wanted to do so went through the roof. Her last experience with homeschoolers was not a religious homeschool group either. It was a non-religious one, but she said that the number of poorly educated or non-educated students was extremely high, especially compared to when she first started and there were stricter laws.

[Mama Mia]

I think a good start would be requiring yearly testing done in a way that the parents can't cheat and then compare to how children in public school are doing like they do in Arkansas.

There is another homeschool survey being done and it asks more detailed questions than Brian Ray ever dreamed of asking. I have heard several homeschoolers saying that they are worried what it will show and that it will lead to stricter requirements for homeschoolers.

I was discussing this subject with my mom since she knew/knows more homeschooling families and she homeschooled from the early 90's all the way till a couple of years ago. Her conclusion was that there needs to be more oversight because parents are not educating their children. She found that when there were stricter requirements only the parents who were willing to put in the hard work opted for homeschooling, but as the requirements got less and less the number of parents who weren't willing to put in the hard work it takes to homeschool, but for whatever reason wanted to do so went through the roof. Her last experience with homeschoolers was not a religious homeschool group either. It was a non-religious one, but she said that the number of poorly educated or non-educated students was extremely high, especially compared to when she first started and there were stricter laws.

I'm going to continue to disagree on the testing - and have a huge issue regarding the emphasis placed on standardized testing in general- but really wouldn't have a problem with there being a requirement that kids are hooked up with a public school home school program.

If it allowed for a great deal of flexibility regarding how kids were taught, curriculum, etc. AND if ALL kids had access to either this sort of option or the free k-12 computer based program.

The way the program in one district was structured each student had a consultant teacher. And they were exactly that, a consultant. My kids had to have the same number of credits, in basically the same areas as required by other kids in the district to receive a diploma. At the start of each semester there would be a meeting with the parent, student and consulting teacher to go over what courses the kid would be taking and how they would be learning.

I used a HUGE variety of curriculum,

For example:one year I had a kid doing :

-U.S. History using "People's History of the U.S." As the primary source- the kid would write an essay after each section.

-For math he was using some fundieish business and practical math workbooks I got off ebay.

-He took an agricultural production class at the alternative high school. I think this counted towards science, but I could be mistaken.

--He took some other sort of permaculture course for science through the local free school program.

--he kept a drawing portfolio and attended some sculpture workshops on-site at the home school classroom for art.

--he did some really, really basic spelling workbooks and journals for English, and read a bunch of business and horticulture books and wrote reports, and did a bunch of language arts C.D.s and online games----he was very, very far behind in language arts when I pulled him from public school.

-- He also did a cooking program he set up with his consultant teacher -- iirc, this counted towards math and health ( nutrition - he came up with meal plans based on nutrients and then would cook the meals) .

I had another kid using the same program that year who was much more academically inclined who had a more traditional curriculum that was primarily textbook based, with a couple of on-line classes thrown in.

Although I didn't do it, there were a number of families who were very into un schooling who were able to still work well with the consultant teachers and come up with learning plans that were extremely student directed and non-structured.

So I don't think we are disagreeing that it's a good thing that someone, somewhere, is making sure someone is at least trying to make sure kids have a decent education. I am just disagreeing that standardized tests, and being held to standards public schools aren't, ( or implementing interventions that have been a huge failure in struggling public schools ), is the way to go.

[Mama Mia]

Not every homeschool family HAS curriculum. You can teach your children without buying a ton of crap written by other people based on what they feel is the best way to school children and may have no baring on your child's learning. Many people exclusively use field trips, experts, life experiences, and the library to teach their children the necessary skills. And none of that is curriculum.

Not to mention, children don't always learn in the linear fashion demanded by curriculum. In fact, very few do.

Field trips, the library and life experiences can all be a complete and valuable curriculum. A great deal of the issue, I think, is that most people -- associate the word " curriculum" with a very structured program utilizing textbooks and tests. It doesn't have to be that at all. A curriculum for any specific subject just describes how the student is going to learn about a specific subject. That very well could include textbooks, but could just as easily consist of art projects, hands-on activities and practical experience.

[utter solitude]

I'm going to continue to disagree on the testing - and have a huge issue regarding the emphasis placed on standardized testing in general- but really wouldn't have a problem with there being a requirement that kids are hooked up with a public school home school program.

If it allowed for a great deal of flexibility regarding how kids were taught, curriculum, etc. AND if ALL kids had access to either this sort of option or the free k-12 computer based program.

The way the program in one district was structured each student had a consultant teacher. And they were exactly that, a consultant. My kids had to have the same number of credits, in basically the same areas as required by other kids in the district to receive a diploma. At the start of each semester there would be a meeting with the parent, student and consulting teacher to go over what courses the kid would be taking and how they would be learning.

I used a HUGE variety of curriculum,

For example:one year I had a kid doing :

-U.S. History using "People's History of the U.S." As the primary source- the kid would write an essay after each section.

-For math he was using some fundieish business and practical math workbooks I got off ebay.

-He took an agricultural production class at the alternative high school. I think this counted towards science, but I could be mistaken.

--He took some other sort of permaculture course for science through the local free school program.

--he kept a drawing portfolio and attended some sculpture workshops on-site at the home school classroom for art.

--he did some really, really basic spelling workbooks and journals for English, and read a bunch of business and horticulture books and wrote reports, and did a bunch of language arts C.D.s and online games----he was very, very far behind in language arts when I pulled him from public school.

-- He also did a cooking program he set up with his consultant teacher -- iirc, this counted towards math and health ( nutrition - he came up with meal plans based on nutrients and then would cook the meals) .

I had another kid using the same program that year who was much more academically inclined who had a more traditional curriculum that was primarily textbook based, with a couple of on-line classes thrown in.

Although I didn't do it, there were a number of families who were very into un schooling who were able to still work well with the consultant teachers and come up with learning plans that were extremely student directed and non-structured.

So I don't think we are disagreeing that it's a good thing that someone, somewhere, is making sure someone is at least trying to make sure kids have a decent education. I am just disagreeing that standardized tests, and being held to standards public schools aren't, ( or implementing interventions that have been a huge failure in struggling public schools ), is the way to go.

I'm not saying that standardized testing is what should be done, just that there should be something. But am I absolutely of the opinion that private and home schools should be held to the same standards of public schools.

As it stands, in some areas, there is pretty much no oversight on homeschooling. This just should not be. It should never be acceptable for a child to not have a good education: regardless of whether it's in a public school, a private school or at home. If your child tests poorly, or show a lack in some way, they should get resources to help them, at an individual level, regardless of where the education is occurring.

[nausicaa]

Many people exclusively use field trips, experts, life experiences, and the library to teach their children the necessary skills. And none of that is curriculum.

Um...all of that is curriculum.

Curriculum isn't just "some crap" someone else sells to you. It generally consists of learning objectives, strategies that will be implemented to best convey the information to the student(s) being taught, and a way to assess a student's progress.

But your comment echoes very well what fundies/crappy homeschoolers* think of the term, and demonstrates quite clearly what is potentially problematic with adults who have no experience with pedagogy jumping in thinking they already know everything. (And God forbid you did read "some crap" by someone with a silly PhD or years of teaching experience.)

*I don't think all homeschoolers are crappy, ftr.

[formergothardite]

I don't think standardized testing is the best way to measure learning even in public school, but asking homeschoolers to do so would be holding them to the same standards as everyone else. I don't think it is unreasonable for homeschoolers to be held to the same standards as public schools. The problem now is that there is virtually no oversight and no way to tell how many homeschool children are being educationally neglected.

[Mama Mia]

I don't think standardized testing is the best way to measure learning even in public school, but asking homeschoolers to do so would be holding them to the same standards as everyone else. I don't think it is unreasonable for homeschoolers to be held to the same standards as public schools. The problem now is that there is virtually no oversight and no way to tell how many homeschool children are being educationally neglected.

But kids AREN'T required to take standardized tests in public school - they can opt out. At least in my state. The schools hate it, but it absolutely not mandated.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/starregs0207cln.doc

The only one mandated for high school graduation in my state is this, I do think having to show basic skills before receiving a diploma, from any type of educational setting, is a good idea.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/

and that is a relatively new requirement , it didn't apply to my older kids, nor did the idiotic No Child Left Behind, and they received a far better education in the public school system than my younger children, partly due to personal factors, but largely due to not having the emphasis on teaching to the test.

The emphasis on standardized testing is a huge one in my area, and in my state, because there are a huge number of kids who have English as a second language.

Anyway, so requiring standardized testing of homeschool students would be requiring more than is required of public school students. And if a public school student does badly on standardized tests they may, or may not, receive extra resources - but they are not required to reach a certain score in order to remain in public school. I mean really, can you imagine the outcry if the situation were reversed? If the over 50% of ALL public school students who are scoring below grade level in reading were being closely monitored and at risk of being told they had to be home schooled if they didn't improve. Are 55% of kids in public school being educationally neglected? And that's just the white kids - the rates for most minority students are much higher.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/ta ... ,185/11557

[formergothardite]

The thing is, at least in my state, if a school has consistently very low test scores and kids are failing, they at least try to do something about it. My daughter's school was one of those very low performing schools. They got more funding, better teacher training, more support teachers, they got a person whose job was to get parents involved in their child's learning, they got a new principal who changed a lot of things including the reading program and they went from a school where the kids were not reading to a school where kids who show up early bring a book to read. Test scores went up and even though they lost some of the funding and extra teachers, they were able to keep a lot of the changes when it came to parent involvement, math and literacy and the scores have stay continued to go up.

If a homeschool child is failing, nothing is done. And usually nobody will even know. That is why there needs to be some sort of oversight.

ETA: What exactly do you suggest to do make sure homeschoolers are educating their children and what do you suggest if it ends up that they aren't? In having numerous conversations online and irl with former homeschoolers the ones that got a bad education find your attitude towards regulations frustrating. I have met people who went before school boards begging to go to public school and begging that their parents were made to educate them but because of the lack of laws about homeschooling nothing could be done.

[Mama Mia]

The thing is, at least in my state, if a school has consistently very low test scores and kids are failing, they at least try to do something about it. My daughter's school was one of those very low performing schools. They got more funding, better teacher training, more support teachers, they got a person whose job was to get parents involved in their child's learning, they got a new principal who changed a lot of things including the reading program and they went from a school where the kids were not reading to a school where kids who show up early bring a book to read. Test scores went up and even though they lost some of the funding and extra teachers, they were able to keep a lot of the changes when it came to parent involvement, math and literacy and the scores have stay continued to go up.

If a homeschool child is failing, nothing is done. And usually nobody will even know. That is why there needs to be some sort of oversight.

ETA: What exactly do you suggest to do make sure homeschoolers are educating their children and what do you suggest if it ends up that they aren't? In having numerous conversations online and irl with former homeschoolers the ones that got a bad education find your attitude towards regulations frustrating. I have met people who went before school boards begging to go to public school and begging that their parents were made to educate them but because of the lack of laws about homeschooling nothing could be done.

I can definitely understand your view if your school actually benefitted from improvements designed to raise student performance.

In my area that's not how No Child Left Behind was implemented.

Instead " failing" schools received some very, very, very specific help to have kids be able to regurgitate the standardized answers correctly. When not enough students could properly regurgitate the answers the school LOST money. So the poorest schools in the district, where about 90% of the kids didn't have English as a first language, ended up with even less funding. And ALL of the focus in the schools became about memorizing ONLY the very specific questions that they will be tested on.

While the wealthier schools, in the same district, received extra money for continually improving already decent scores - but the teachers had to switch their focus to getting kids to regurgitate a ton of mostly developmentally inappropriate information. So the kids who were already doing well in school just lost time learning how to think and analyze and research and learn about " extras" like music and art and anything not on the test.

Individual students who test well continued to test well, but lost many of the enrichment activities and wider range of knowledge they would have benefitted from before No Child Left Behind. And individual struggling students got drilled in a bunch of questions that the state decided are vital for grade 4 or 6 or 8, even if they didn't have or retain the foundational educational skills to make ANY of it useful after the test was over.

I think what I suggested previously would be a workable system, although districts would need to put up some cash - but enrolled kids get the school attendance money from the state, so that should be doable. They would have credentialed teachers working with the family that way. And I can pretty much guarantee you that for every kid who received a crappy home school education there are 50 who would have similar complaints about the education they received in public school.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

A standardized test system doesn't do anything to prove a child is getting a good education. Look at current public schools, they're all teaching to the test, not teaching to increase knowledge. I know many people in the education system (teachers and administrators alike) who all hate the emphasis on tests as a "measure of education." There are many brilliant kids who do poorly on tests (I was one of them, and a test anxiety made my testing even worse). There are also a lot of kids who perform at or below average who do exceptionally well on years. And, testing focuses on the "concrete facts," things that can't be manipulated. A measure of intelligence would require a student to prove an understanding, which requires abstract thinking.

The fact is that there is no way to ensure every child gets an adequate education, regardless of the type of school or the curriculum used. The more people try to prove education is happening, the less it happens.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I can definitely understand your view if your school actually benefitted from improvements designed to raise student performance.

In my area that's not how No Child Left Behind was implemented.

Instead " failing" schools received some very, very, very specific help to have kids be able to regurgitate the standardized answers correctly. When not enough students could properly regurgitate the answers the school LOST money. So the poorest schools in the district, where about 90% of the kids didn't have English as a first language, ended up with even less funding. And ALL of the focus in the schools became about memorizing ONLY the very specific questions that they will be tested on.

While the wealthier schools, in the same district, received extra money for continually improving already decent scores - but the teachers had to switch their focus to getting kids to regurgitate a ton of mostly developmentally inappropriate information. So the kids who were already doing well in school just lost time learning how to think and analyze and research and learn about " extras" like music and art and anything not on the test.

Individual students who test well continued to test well, but lost many of the enrichment activities and wider range of knowledge they would have benefitted from before No Child Left Behind. And individual struggling students got drilled in a bunch of questions that the state decided are vital for grade 4 or 6 or 8, even if they didn't have or retain the foundational educational skills to make ANY of it useful after the test was over.

I think what I suggested previously would be a workable system, although districts would need to put up some cash - but enrolled kids get the school attendance money from the state, so that should be doable. They would have credentialed teachers working with the family that way. And I can pretty much guarantee you that for every kid who received a crappy home school education there are 50 who would have similar complaints about the education they received in public school.

A teaching credential does not translate well to homeschooling. Teaching credentials teach things like classroom management and organization. MANY people who have credentials and went on to homeschool have talked about how their credential actually hindered their ability to effectively teach their children in a home setting.

[apple1]

A teaching credential does not translate well to homeschooling. Teaching credentials teach things like classroom management and organization. MANY people who have credentials and went on to homeschool have talked about how their credential actually hindered their ability to effectively teach their children in a home setting.

I'm sure you can find instances, but as a whole - no. Anecdotes do not make a rule.

I swore I was done with this thread, but I have to say - what in the world has happened to FJ?

[FJismyheadship]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

I have a relative who is an anti vax unschooling mother... she also thinks very highly of her own mothering, but thats another story.

Anyway, they live in Texas. She says she pulled her daughter out in first grade, and started with homeschooling, but then decided to go with unschooling. This year, her daughter is learning math and science. From what I can tell, there is no real schedule. She just lets her daughter learn whatever she wants (math and science this year) whenever she wants. And of course, she has the smartest daughter known to man kind.

She told us that if she wanted to, she could print out a homeschool diploma and send her daughter to college tomorrow. She said Texas doesn't care what you do.

I hope her daughter is learning enough, but I too wish they had to report to someone and have her test every year.

Neat, I didn't know if that would work or not.

[Mama Mia]

I'm sure you can find instances, but as a whole - no. Anecdotes do not make a rule.

I swore I was done with this thread, but I have to say - what in the world has happened to FJ?

Oh, I'm so sorry, I wasn't aware that there was one exact set of beliefs that are required for participation. Would you care to provide a checklist? And how much hive vaginaness is required to be one of the cool girls? " Correctly" agree with 100% of the views? Or is 80 or 90% okay? How about 70% ? Would that meet your approval? And, frankly, I think you'd have a hard time coming up with a list that's acceptable to anyone.

[utter solitude]

Standardized testing may not be perfect, but you shouldn't be able to pull your child out of school to avoid accountability.* Fact is, the system is broken across the board, and the fact that "standardized testing doesn't really work in public schools!" is not a good reason that home/private schools shouldn't be held to the same standards. Combine some oversight with getting resources to those that need it, and you have an excellent start. That should be happening in every setting.

*Not everyone is doing that, of course, but some are.

[formergothardite]

I think it should be of concern to everyone that homeschooling is so poorly regulated and so poorly studied that no one has any real information about how well homeschoolers are actually doing.

[It'sFunToRun]

Oh, I'm so sorry, I wasn't aware that there was one exact set of beliefs that are required for participation. Would you care to provide a checklist? And how much hive vaginaness is required to be one of the cool girls? " Correctly" agree with 100% of the views? Or is 80 or 90% okay? How about 70% ? Would that meet your approval? And, frankly, I think you'd have a hard time coming up with a list that's acceptable to anyone.

A-f*cking-men. :dance:

[DarkAnts]

I think all home school parents should at least present goals and a plan to reach those goals each year. The goals should based on the child's age and maturity but the minimal goal should be inline with the goals for children their age at a public school. Parents should be held accountable for meeting goals by the end of the year or have a good explanation on why the goal was not meet.

I do know someone who unschools her child. She spends lots of time finding ways to teach him without actually following a curriculum. He is currently interested in trains so she is teaching him about the trains continental railroad, steam engine, exc. She found creative ways to get him to do math via train routs. They are doing a summer train trip and the math lessons tie into that trip. Her husband and her son built a steam engine. This is the sort of unschooling I support. Successful homeschooling and unschooling involve a lot of parental involvement and creativity.

I have also seen homeschool failures because the parents do not want to put in the time and effort required.

[Rebelwife]

I think all home school parents should at least present goals and a plan to reach those goals each year. The goals should based on the child's age and maturity but the minimal goal should be inline with the goals for children their age at a public school. Parents should be held accountable for meeting goals by the end of the year or have a good explanation on why the goal was not meet.

I do know someone who unschools her child. She spends lots of time finding ways to teach him without actually following a curriculum. He is currently interested in trains so she is teaching him about the trains continental railroad, steam engine, exc. She found creative ways to get him to do math via train routs. They are doing a summer train trip and the math lessons tie into that trip. Her husband and her son built a steam engine. This is the sort of unschooling I support. Successful homeschooling and unschooling involve a lot of parental involvement and creativity.

I have also seen homeschool failures because the parents do not want to put in the time and effort required.

I agree that unschooling done right is VERY time consuming for the parent. I have an acquaintance who unschools her two children. Whenever we talk about what she's doing to facilitate their learning and incorporate all sorts of different subjects into their current areas of interest (ranging from robotics to traditional fiddle music right now) all I can think about is how exhausting it sounds! I'm (ironically) much to lazy to ever be a good unschooling parent.