Texas court rules against homeschoolers who expected rapture

[antwan]

I'm sorry, but if you plan to homeschool your child, you should have to both present the curriculum to the state and take state administered assessment tests every year.

Many states disagree with you, as evidenced by their homeschooling laws. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. The constitution provides protection for homeschooling WITHOUT government mandates for testing and curriculum provision/approval (it is left to the states to spell this out; some have chosen minimal intervention, such as TX, while others have chosen maximum intervention, such as MA.) In 2000, the Supreme Court cited a long train of previous cases which showed that the right of parents to direct the education and upbringing of their children is a fundamental right. Again, your government does not share your sentiment.

...these children will one day become adults who will be released into society. As a fellow member of that society, I certainly don't want to live in a community with a rise in the crime or welfare rates because parents decided educating their children wasn't a priority. These kids have to be able to survive someday and I'd rather they be capable of doing so with breaking laws are becoming a burden on their fellow citizens.

:pink-shock: Do you not hear the ignorance in your comment? And by ignorance, I do not wish to sling mud, but rather to suggest a literal ignorance, on your part, regarding what homeschooling looks like in the vast majority of homes/families. It does NOT look like stereotypical fundamental Christianity (with its isolation, courtship, long hair and frumpers, IBLP, etc.) It most definitely does not look like your insulting suggestion of society destroying, burdensome criminals in the making. Seriously? You do not appear to have done your "homework" :naughty: before speaking so callously about homeschooling. Are you aware that states like OH and PA *do* view curriculum and/or test scores, and that the result of their inspection is not a shocking discovery of undereducated criminals in the making? Merely as a point of reference, having attended public and private schools, having earned two college degrees and my RN license, and having homeschooled my children for 10 years in two states, I do have an understanding of what I'm speaking of. My oldest just successfully passed multiple interviews, an entrance exam, scrutiny over our curriculum and her grades, and was subsequently admitted into a desirable private highschool in our area. I should add that we live in a highly unregulated state, and yet she was well prepared. THAT is far more in line with homeschooling norms than your suggestion of criminals in training. Perhaps you simply didn't articulate your thoughts effectively, but they came through as short-sighted, imo.

[CynicMom]

Antmom, it is wonderful that homeschooling is working out so well for your family. I have considered it for my family as well. However, I would love to have some actual data on the percentage of homeschoolers that are doing well and succeeding, like yours, versus the percentage that are doing poorly or only teaching the minimum. The problem is that in the absence of regulation the only studies out there suffer from severe self-selection bias and can't give us a feel for homeschooling overall.

I think what I and other posters would love to see is a system of testing so we could finally get clear data. As a homeschooling mom I'm sure you've seen other parents who are homeschooling their children very lax. Stories of neglect and abuse seem to be on the rise and it overshadows the good that homeschooling can accomplish. My concern is that if something doesn't change eventually the sheer volume of neglectful homeschooling stories will force reactionary legislation.

[antwan]

Antmom, it is wonderful that homeschooling is working out so well for your family. I have considered it for my family as well. However, I would love to have some actual data on the percentage of homeschoolers that are doing well and succeeding, like yours, versus the percentage that are doing poorly or only teaching the minimum. The problem is that in the absence of regulation the only studies out there suffer from severe self-selection bias and can't give us a feel for homeschooling overall.

I think what I and other posters would love to see is a system of testing so we could finally get clear data. As a homeschooling mom I'm sure you've seen other parents who are homeschooling their children very lax. Stories of neglect and abuse seem to be on the rise and it overshadows the good that homeschooling can accomplish. My concern is that if something doesn't change eventually the sheer volume of neglectful homeschooling stories will force reactionary legislation.

As you probably know, there ARE stats available (though, as with ANY environment, whether it be homeschooling, public schools, political analysis, etc., stats are merely a tool and guide, not an exact science. There is evidence of "normal" success in traditional school settings, as well as evidence of some schools' students performing above the national average, while other schools' students have proven to perform well below the national average, in spite of standardization in traditional schools.) I would encourage you seek out the available information on such stats, and to pay attention to the source of that information (to keep the interpretations as objective as possible.) States with higher regulation (mandatory standardized testing, for example) will have such data.

I don't disagree with you. We lived in OH previously, and OH requires either standardized testing annually OR an annual evaluation of student progress (parents keep a work portfolio) by a state certified teacher (who checks/reviews work samples, comparing them with the student's previous year's work, etc.), as well as annual registation with the local school district and provision of that year's list of intended curriculum. I was not opposed to this level of government intervention, for the reasons you mentioned. Don't get me wrong. Because I definitely am responsible in my role as a homeschool educator, I don't mind the low level of regulation my state has. BUT, I am not opposed to a practical level of regulation either.

[Mama Mia]

Antmom, it is wonderful that homeschooling is working out so well for your family. I have considered it for my family as well. However, I would love to have some actual data on the percentage of homeschoolers that are doing well and succeeding, like yours, versus the percentage that are doing poorly or only teaching the minimum. The problem is that in the absence of regulation the only studies out there suffer from severe self-selection bias and can't give us a feel for homeschooling overall.

I think what I and other posters would love to see is a system of testing so we could finally get clear data. As a homeschooling mom I'm sure you've seen other parents who are homeschooling their children very lax. Stories of neglect and abuse seem to be on the rise and it overshadows the good that homeschooling can accomplish. My concern is that if something doesn't change eventually the sheer volume of neglectful homeschooling stories will force reactionary legislation.

Here's a link to one study. It only covers success of homeschooled students entering university, bu they compare favorably to other students.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/0 ... 62425.html

I live in California, which is likely the least regulated state in the U.S., as I can't imagine how there could be any less regulation - the only requirement is to fill out an annual form, online, naming the students and a couple other very, very basic pieces of information. ( disclaimer, my youngest graduated 5 years ago, so things could have changed).

But the state also offers :

--free k-12 computer based home study program ( including the computer, and I believe, Internet access).

--In my county there were also a variety of charter schools aimed at specific interests/needs, high achieves, vocational, a charter that was basically an un-school based in a public school, green technology, former gang bangers, arts, and on and on.

---Each district also offered Independent Study Programs, where students would meet with a teacher weekly to cover assignments done at home, but with the curriculum provided primarily by the teacher.

---and each district has a Home School Program, with certified teachers who check in monthly, libraries, textbooks and optional workshops, field trips, special interest classes and help and advice that parents can take -- or not-- when setting up curriculum and tailoring it to fit the needs and interests and philosophy and learning style of the particular kid.

My extremely non-academic son was able to earn a regular diploma through the public school district using this program. He never, ever, would have graduated if I'd left him in the regular high school. I got some of his curriculum from the home school library and text books, some from ebay or Amazon. Most of his work was designed to be as hands on and practical as possible - because he's as outdoor, physical kind of guy. So agriculture was a central theme.

There are some parents who prefer to just use their own methods or work with a religious or other special interest group of home schoolers.

My point is that there are so many good, supportive options for home schoolers that I have seen very, very few people abuse the leniency of the home school requirements .

and the few I have seen abuse it have been either older adolescents who would have just dropped out and their parents are hoping they will at least get them to acquire a few basic academic skills if they pull them to home school- but the kids blow them off the same way they blew off their teachers and school administrators. The other group don't even bother to fill out the form because they are too methed out to notice . I'm sure there are also some really lazy or really fanatically religious parents who also give an inadequate education, but I think it's really a small number.

[nomoxian]

thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/christian_families_must_educate_their_children

Excerpts:

Sanity has prevailed in Texas. The Eighth District Court of Appeals has ruled that parents cannot use their religion as an excuse not to comply with the school district's requirements for homeschoolers.

One of the children told investigators that was because they were going to be raptured soon and would not need an education. Officials also discover that the couple's seventeen-year-old daughter had run away from home so she could attend public school.

There was no immediate reaction from the McIntyres on whether they will enroll their children in public school this fall. Perhaps they are waiting to see of the rapture makes that decision moot.

[lilah]

It's not hating on public schools to point out that they are not always doing a better job than homeschooling. My daughter is a public school teacher. Most of my kids went to public school all the way through with no issues. A couple of my kids had a difficult time in that setting and had a combination of public school, charter school and home school experiences.

It just irks me when people talk about how horribly educated some young people are and automatically attribute that to having been home schooled-- especially if it is a situation where it is extremely unlikely that the kids they are describing were actually home schooled.

For example, read this article that discusses U.S. literacy rates. One in five adults read below a

5th grade level. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 80355.html

Only 3% of U.S. Students currently homeschool, and this is a recent trend. So if you are only considering literacy rates of adults in the U.S., it is highly unlikely that it is homeschoolers who are a significant part of the problem.

I used to work in a public school where only one in five kids was working on grade level. The main issue was the students were kiving in poverty, neglect and parents who were apethetic about their kids education. very violent prone. There were lots of fights, students stealing, one threatened to commit suicide in class. When i spoke with parents they'd often lie to me or cuss me out. Classroom management was very hard. Until we address the underlying issues of poverty then we will not be able to address failing schools.

[nelliebelle1197]

There are a couple other threads on this one.

[Mama Mia]

I used to work in a public school where only one in five kids was working on grade level. The main issue was the students were kiving in poverty, neglect and parents who were apethetic about their kids education. very violent prone. There were lots of fights, students stealing, one threatened to commit suicide in class. When i spoke with parents they'd often lie to me or cuss me out. Classroom management was very hard. Until we address the underlying issues of poverty then we will not be able to address failing schools.

With all due respect to the very difficult job you're doing...... If you have the kids 6 hours a day, 9 months a year, you can really only place a certain amount of blame on parents, student behavior or poverty. At some point the school system has to take responsibility for the job They are supposed to do. Educate children.

[formergothardite]

I am not anti-homeschooling at all, but I do think it needs to be more regulated. I saw lots of good homeschoolers but for every success story I also saw homeschooling failure stories.

Giving parents giant loop holes so they don't have to prove they are educating their children is not a good idea. And I would think that a good homeschooling parent would see that.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... liant.html

One of the actual studies on homeschooling says this:

This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It should not be cited as evidence that our public schools are failing. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled

And the guy who did the study is greatly annoyed that homeschool advocacy groups have misused his study.

[apple1]

With all due respect to the very difficult job you're doing...... If you have the kids 6 hours a day, 9 months a year, you can really only place a certain amount of blame on parents, student behavior or poverty. At some point the school system has to take responsibility for the job They are supposed to do. Educate children.

First, I am not a teacher. My kids are now adults. IMO It takes both schools and parents working together to get kids educated.

That said, wow. Your premise leads me to a very different interpretation.

“…a child reaching her 18th birthday has been alive for about 158,000 hours. If she has attended school without miss – no absences for 6 hours a day, 180 days a year, for 12 years – she will have spent almost 13,000 hours in school. If we add kindergarten, the number increases to 14,000 hours. But that is only 9% of her time on Earth. Consider what this means in terms of the leverage of formal education, if much of what goes on during the other 91 percent is at cross purposes to the values and the lessons of school…â€

http://www.tarcherbooks.net/fun-fact-wh ... in-school/

[It'sFunToRun]

First, I am not a teacher. My kids are now adults. IMO It takes both schools and parents working together to get kids educated.

That said, wow. Your premise leads me to a very different interpretation.

http://www.tarcherbooks.net/fun-fact-wh ... in-school/

About half is spent sleeping. Presumably, not at school.

[Mama Mia]

About half is spent sleeping. Presumably, not at school.

And being an infant and toddler and pre-schooler. And eating. And bathing. And playing. And being transported to and from school. And brushing teeth. And using the toilet. And, and, and....yes, of course parents and environment have a huge influence. So does the personality and aptitude of the individual kid. But that " only 9% is spent in school" is such a gigantic logic fail it's difficult to take anything else they say seriously.

[Mama Mia]

I am not anti-homeschooling at all, but I do think it needs to be more regulated. I saw lots of good homeschoolers but for every success story I also saw homeschooling failure stories.

Giving parents giant loop holes so they don't have to prove they are educating their children is not a good idea. And I would think that a good homeschooling parent would see that.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... liant.html

One of the actual studies on homeschooling says this:

This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It should not be cited as evidence that our public schools are failing. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled

And the guy who did the study is greatly annoyed that homeschool advocacy groups have misused his study.

The problem I have with higher standards and regulations and accountability for home schooling is that I think it is unreasonable to hold home schooled students to academic standards the public school can't guarantee they will reach. If 20% of adults are only able to read at less than a fifth grade level, I don't think the school district should be able to tell me that my child has to attend public school because they are reading below grade level. Or to put some sort of academic improvement plan in place that will be the equal of the horrible No Child Left Behind.

I think my views are influenced on why I homeschooled some of my kids, some of the time. It's because they were doing HORRIBLY in public school. They were falling through the cracks. My one son with severe ADHD cried before going to school. Every. Single. Day. For years. From kindergarten on. Getting him TO school each day was a nightmare battle. He was made to feel stupid and inadequate and " different" constantly. He had teachers who said absolutely horrible, vile insulting things to him. Because he was impulsive. Because he couldn't sit still and focus. Because he had annoying behaviors.

And yes we tried all the various interventions and medications. The medication helped some, particularly with academics. But not enough when he reached middle school and had to track a million things and the teachers were even more cruel, and one was physically abusive. Plus he started to have serious heart problems from the stimulant meds, and the non-stimulant alternative sent him into rages. So he was basically uneducated and heading quickly towards gang life and major drugs.

Pulling him out to homeschool wasn't some magic fix. Getting him to do his work was still a huge, huge, huge struggle. He still was impulsive and made tons of stupid decisions. But he ended up graduating high school and has basic academic skills and didn't become a junkie or get shot and is now a kind, capable, responsible up young man who runs a small business that requires physical work- which is what he is good at.

If he was required to be at grade level for reading or math in order to homeschool, or if I was required to use only set instruction methods or curriculum he would have never graduated ( and he graduated through the public home school option in our district, so did meet the requirements and have the basic skills) . He also would likely have a very, very bad life right now.

I don't think his situation is that uncommon among homeschool students. If I lived in an area where religious fundamentalist home schoolers were more prominent, I might look at it differently.

I think requiring that parents teach x subjects is fine- or that high school students need to pass some sort of basic skills test to get a diploma - my state has a test all kids in public school need to take -- but I get very worried when anything more specific is mandated.

[formergothardite]

I don't think requiring parents to teach certain subjects or requiring them to have end of the year tests(administered in a way that the parents can't do the test for the children) and then, if the children are falling behind, have some accountability to make sure that the parents are at least trying to teach their children, is asking too much.

I've known parents who, in NC, do the yearly tests for their children because their children can't do them. I've known parents who used homeschooling as a way to keep the girls uneducated, away from society and make it harder for them to ever leave home. I've known parents who "homeschooled" because they didn't like to get up early and did not even make an effort to teach their children. I am currently very frustrated with two "homeschoolers" I know whose children clearly have learning disorders and the parents are either unable or unwilling to teach them. One of these women I had to unfriend of FB because it was breaking my heart to read her posts. She has been trying to teach this child to read for two years and he still can't read at all, so she spanks him, over and over and over*. The other mother has just given up and her third grader can't read or do basic math, but she counts him walking outside and pulling a leaf off a tree as a school day. She doesn't even try to teach him anymore.

In the public schools in our area both of these children would have been flagged early on and given extra attention. But since in NC the parents can administer the tests and if the child fails the tests nothing gets done, nobody is going to help these children.

*I did report this mother to CPS, but nothing she did is illegal in NC.

[Mama Mia]

I don't think requiring parents to teach certain subjects or requiring them to have end of the year tests(administered in a way that the parents can't do the test for the children) and then, if the children are falling behind, have some accountability to make sure that the parents are at least trying to teach their children, is asking too much.

I've known parents who, in NC, do the yearly tests for their children because their children can't do them. I've known parents who used homeschooling as a way to keep the girls uneducated, away from society and make it harder for them to ever leave home. I've known parents who "homeschooled" because they didn't like to get up early and did not even make an effort to teach their children. I am currently very frustrated with two "homeschoolers" I know whose children clearly have learning disorders and the parents are either unable or unwilling to teach them. One of these women I had to unfriend of FB because it was breaking my heart to read her posts. She has been trying to teach this child to read for two years and he still can't read at all, so she spanks him, over and over and over*. The other mother has just given up and her third grader can't read or do basic math, but she counts him walking outside and pulling a leaf off a tree as a school day. She doesn't even try to teach him anymore.

In the public schools in our area both of these children would have been flagged early on and given extra attention. But since in NC the parents can administer the tests and if the child fails the tests nothing gets done, nobody is going to help these children.

*I did report this mother to CPS, but nothing she did is illegal in NC.

I understand your viewpoint, I really do. I just disagree, based on my experience. Oddly virtually all of the people I've known who fall into any of the categories you mention didn't bother to register their kids for home school. Which is weird because, like I said, there is absolutely nothing required in California except a one page form. The ones who didn't send their kids to school because they were drugged out, just didn't send them. The only person I know who purposefully taken from school to keep her uneducated and with limited options, was pulled in 2nd grade, and her parents just told the school district she was sent to Mexico to live with her grandparents.

My kid had acknowledged learning difficulties. I went to a million IEP meetings. And 504 meetings, which is an extra shitty form of accommodation that comes into play, ironically, if your kid starts doing " better". I advocated like crazy. He was in resource class and got extra help and all of that. It was still horrible. If he had stayed in the public school his teachers wouldn't be held accountable for his not making enough progress ( rightly!) because he had special needs -- why should a parent be held to a different standard? Because of the kind of trouble magnet he was, he also had friends as teens who were struggling in school. Very, very, very few of them graduated high school. Very, very, very few of them have any academic skills beyond a 3rd -5th grade level. But they attended public school, many of them receiving special help.

[formergothardite]

If the people who are neglecting their children don't register as a homeschool then there would at least be something to do about it. They could be reported for not enrolling their children in school. All education systems should be required to educate children and if they aren't then something needs to be done. Saying that homeschool parents should be given a free for all and held to no education standards because public schools fail children too, doesn't make sense to me. Both systems fail children, both systems need to be fixed.

The people you know might have done great homeschooling, but what about all the people whose parents used homeschooling to deprive them of an education? You don't think ANYTHING should be done just because it is going to take a long time to fix public schools?

[Mama Mia]

If the people who are neglecting their children don't register as a homeschool then there would at least be something to do about it. They could be reported for not enrolling their children in school. All education systems should be required to educate children and if they aren't then something needs to be done. Saying that homeschool parents should be given a free for all and held to no education standards because public schools fail children too, doesn't make sense to me. Both systems fail children, both systems need to be fixed.

The people you know might have done great homeschooling, but what about all the people whose parents used homeschooling to deprive them of an education? You don't think ANYTHING should be done just because it is going to take a long time to fix public schools?

My problem is that the " fixes" I've seen at the public schools have, for the most part, done far more harm than good. So I am very, very leery of having the public school system mandate similar fixes for home school students. No Child Left Behind has been an absolutely horrible, abysmal failure for many students, teachers, schools and districts. The kids who were doing fine anyway will continue to do fine. High achieving schools in, largely, wealthy areas did just fine. Struggling kids, and struggling schools got screwed. The entire intent was to make sure kids were making progress and meeting standards and holding schools accountable if they weren't. I do not want the people who implemented it anywhere near parents who have decided to homeschool because their kids are struggling in the public school system.

Given the very small percentage of children who are homeschooled, and the much smaller number who have parents who are neglecting their kids education through homeschooling, I really would be fine with just an agreement to cover certain subjects and a test in order to award a diploma. They could do it like they do for public schools in my state. The kids start taking a basic skills test in 9 th (?) grade. It covers general literacy, essay writing, math and I think some history and science. They take it in a proctored setting. If they don't pass they can keep retaking it until they do. But they can't graduate without it, and they still need to take the required classes to graduate.

Like I said, I understand our experiences are very different, so we are looking at it through different perspectives. My perspective is as a mom who had a couple of kids who got really, severely burned by the educational system, and who would have done horribly if made to follow the public school guidelines and benchmarks. Which they were nowhere near close to reaching in public school anyway.

Again, I am not anti-public school at all. Most of my kids took to it like ducks to water. They had some wonderful school experiences with some awesome teachers. If they struggled at all they got the appropriate support and got back on track. One has been a public school teacher for years. I just took adorable first day of public school photos of my kindergarten granddaughter, who loves, loves, loves school. I even intended to be a teacher, but ran out of money before I could finish my credential.

This isn't about being anti-public education. It's about giving parents the ability to use creative, flexible means and modify standards if that's what they need to do to make sure their kids end up as functioning adults in society. And, in my experience, large bureaucracies are really, really horrible at flexibility. If all kids had access and were allowed to be enrolled in something as truly supportive and flexible as one of the home school programs I worked with -- I think that might be a good solution. It worked well with my one child, but another wasn't allowed to enroll because she had been truant too much from her previous school ( how that makes sense is beyond me) and the petty tyrant in charge had all the power. So for that kid I just did my own curriculum, using the state required courses, but tailoring to fit her interests and needs. She had severe anxiety and insomnia and awful spelling and handwriting, but was a fantastic self directed learner and would put her insomnia to use staying up all night writing absolutely brilliant essays. She actually said to me today ( hmmm....wonder if she found me online :? ) that she really benefitted from home school because it made her more interested in learning on her own, and continuing to learn as an adult, because it wasn't based on just doing what some teacher said. She also said it made her more motivated and responsible because she had to manage her own time more and also was able to hold a job from an early age. I swear this was completely unsolicited :D

Anyway, my TL/DR point is that I don't think big bureaucracies are very adept at solving student level issues, and I would be very worried that the solutions applied would be worse than the original problem.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I've never understood why Christians predicting the end of the world is okay. It is SO clear in Mark that this is not acceptable for humans to do. I don't know why the Harold Campings of the world aren't treated as committing a great heresy by conservative Christians.

I'm staying out of education talk ;-). But as for your opinion on end times predictions, I completely agree. And that's coming from a fundie. I have a relative enamored with end times crap and it makes me insane.

[formergothardite]

Is there any statistics on the actual number of parents who are not giving their children a proper education? The studies that claim to prove homeschoolers are doing better than children who go to public school are heavily biased and don't represent the general population of homeschooling. Just from being around homeschoolers since the early 80's, being homeschooled myself, and being on support groups with adults from all over the country(and this aren't just ATI/religious families) who were homeschooled I think that the number of neglected homeschoolers is much higher than you think.

I did receive a good education, it has just been my experience that I was the exception, not the rule when it came to homeschoolers. The people we know who started homeschooling in the 80's were very devoted to giving their children a good education because the laws were so strict back then. You had to prove you were educating your children so only the parents who were willing to do so homeschooled. But as the laws got easier, the number of parents neglecting their children got higher. I think going back to some of the earlier laws(at least in NC) which seemed to work would be a good idea.

[Mama Mia]

Is there any statistics on the actual number of parents who are not giving their children a proper education? The studies that claim to prove homeschoolers are doing better than children who go to public school are heavily biased and don't represent the general population of homeschooling. Just from being around homeschoolers since the early 80's, being homeschooled myself, and being on support groups with adults from all over the country(and this aren't just ATI/religious families) who were homeschooled I think that the number of neglected homeschoolers is much higher than you think.

I did receive a good education, it has just been my experience that I was the exception, not the rule when it came to homeschoolers. The people we know who started homeschooling in the 80's were very devoted to giving their children a good education because the laws were so strict back then. You had to prove you were educating your children so only the parents who were willing to do so homeschooled. But as the laws got easier, the number of parents neglecting their children got higher. I think going back to some of the earlier laws(at least in NC) which seemed to work would be a good idea.

Well, this article looks pretty good as far as citing large sample sizes and multiple studies, and it's from a mainstream education site, not one geared towards homeschoolers. But it appears that homeschoolers overall do very well.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/home-schooling/

Like you said, the problem with these studies is they tend to be biased towards self-selection -- but in this case the group that is more heavily weighted in the study is the very group you are concerned about -- Conservative Christian Home Schoolers.

My problem ,again, is that I am looking at it from the perspective of a different set of issues. So the standardized tests with some sort of requirement that the student makes x amount of progress or they must return to public school, or use some set instructional method or curriculum is very worrying to me. For example if my 12 year old was testing at a 3rd grade level in reading in public school and I homeschool him and he tests at a 4th grade level at 13 -- is that a " failure" that requires public school intervention?

Obviously there are going to be some really crappy homeschoolers. Just like there are some really crappy public schools and teachers. But I don't see how applying the same tools that don't work in public schools, and applying them to home schooled kids makes any sense.

I'll try to poke around and see if I can find some studies regarding how many home school students end up with a less than 5 th grade reading level, and how that compares to the general population. That would probably be a good starting point.

[utter solitude]

imo, standardized testing should occur across the board: in public schools, in private schools, and in home schools.

The amount of "intervention" that should occur in a home school situation is a tricky one. There are oversights in place in public schools that should be emulated over private and home schools, as well. I don't see a problem with light tabs being kept on home schools.... but more in a "Can Johnny read? Is he behind in math? Here are some resources for you." kind of way, rather than a black and white "If Johnny doesn't test at ____ level, it's back to James Woods High!"

Generally speaking, parents that choose home school try to do all they can for their children. However, there are those that slip through the cracks, and there should be some accountability for the parent who never opens a workbook or sends the child outside and calls it "school".

[formergothardite]

Well, this article looks pretty good as far as citing large sample sizes and multiple studies, and it's from a mainstream education site, not one geared towards homeschoolers. But it appears that homeschoolers overall do very well.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/home-schooling/

Like you said, the problem with these studies is they tend to be biased towards self-selection -- but in this case the group that is more heavily weighted in the study is the very group you are concerned about -- Conservative Christian Home Schoolers.

My problem ,again, is that I am looking at it from the perspective of a different set of issues. So the standardized tests with some sort of requirement that the student makes x amount of progress or they must return to public school, or use some set instructional method or curriculum is very worrying to me. For example if my 12 year old was testing at a 3rd grade level in reading in public school and I homeschool him and he tests at a 4th grade level at 13 -- is that a " failure" that requires public school intervention?

Obviously there are going to be some really crappy homeschoolers. Just like there are some really crappy public schools and teachers. But I don't see how applying the same tools that don't work in public schools, and applying them to home schooled kids makes any sense.

I'll try to poke around and see if I can find some studies regarding how many home school students end up with a less than 5 th grade reading level, and how that compares to the general population. That would probably be a good starting point.

When I was in college I decided to write a research paper proving that homeschoolers ended up better educated than public school students. I really, really believed that the research was there to show this because I had been told over and over again that Brian Ray had these studies that proved it. So when I started looking into the research methods he used and saw that all of his studies do not use random samples, they use pretty much handpicked rich, religious white families where the parents are very well educated and that they had a vested interest in making sure homeschooling looked good, well, I didn't write a paper on homeschooling because there just wasn't the research.

Because the subject is close to my heart and I like keeping up with stuff like that I have followed the more recent studies. The ones done by Ray are so biased they need to be tossed. Rudner's study which is also mentioned, concluded that:

This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled

So the conclusion of that study was not that homeschoolers do better, but you couldn't tell that by the article. Rudner has stated that the study actually showed that if you take the same group of kids and put them in public school they would do just as well.

I'm going to take the HSLDA's survey of homeschoolers with a huge grain of salt. I haven't been able to find a huge amount about it, but the HSLDA is always going to make homeschoolers look good.

One of the best studies on homeschooling compared to public schools that I know of was done in Alaska. But the problem is, the homeschoolers they used were using a provided curriculum, the parents had to turn in work, and had monthly check ups with a certified teacher. This study corrected for back ground factors and found that when homeschooled this way the children did much better than their public school peers, except in math. But this is hardly the typical way to homeschool.

This discusses educational neglect in homeschooling.

http://epsl.asu.edu/epru/articles/EPRU-0503-102-OWI.pdf

Home-school failures aren't as readily apparent as the well-circulated stories of success.

In cases of educational neglect, most states prohibit public disclosure to protect the welfare of the

children, and no one has compiled a comprehensive list of those cases that do become public.

Arkansas is one of 11 states that HSLDA said requires testing of home schoolers. Children there

must take the Stanford Achievement tests in the fifth, seventh and 10th grades.

Stanford Achievement scores, obtained by the Beacon Journal, show the performance of

Arkansas home schoolers to be in decline. In the most recent year, the average scores were a

few percentage points above the national average for all students who take the Stanford tests.

Immediately after Molly's death, Arkansas officials reviewed test information and found that about

one-fourth of the state's registered home-schooled children don't show up for the required exams.

So in at least this state homeschool performance is only a little above public school and that doesn't factor in the 1/4 of homeschool students who didn't take the tests.

This is in Ohio where parents can submit testing or an assessment. Shockingly the assessments done by the parents never show a child doing poorly.

David Rossman, superintendent of Elmwood schools near Toledo, said that in 21 years, he has

never seen an assessment that said a student was failing.``I have known of students that have dropped out of school by the sixth grade under the `homeschool' umbrella. We knew they were doing no schooling at all... but there is nothing you can do

about it,'' Rossman said.

Several superintendents said the only time they've proved that a home schooler was making

inadequate progress was when parents submitted standardized test scores showing the child

scored in the bottom 25 percent nationally -- deemed unacceptable in Ohio.

Those families are required to enter into a remediation plan for the following year. What parents

learn from the remediation, superintendents said, is never to submit scores again -- instead

submit an assessment

During the past year, the Beacon Journal interviewed nine researchers whose studies on home

schooling are most often quoted. They have done original research and include representatives

of Columbia and Stanford universities and the Education Commission for the States. They

agreed: There is no statistical evidence that children who are kept home to be educated perform

at a much higher level than public school students.

But while everyone acknowledges there are failures, no one knows how many or where they are,

and many school officials have no authority to challenge the parents

I don't think having tests administered in a way that parents can't do them for their children and then following up with support and resources if the child is failing and making sure that there is an effort on the part of the parent to teach the child is asking too much.

[Mama Mia]

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. And I've never said that I think home school students will do better than public school students, in general.

In my experience home school students fall into three main categories -- parents who home school because they are extremely motivated and eager for their children to succeed and are willing and able to put a huge amount of time and resources I to it -- those kids will naturally score very highly. Or kids who are being homeschooled because they have struggled in public school and just aren't learning anything and/or have a really hard time fitting into the classroom setting for various reasons --- those kids will naturally score lower on standardized tests. I would imagine the families who home school for religious or other reasons tend to fall somewhere in the middle, overall. So I would think the average home school student performance would be the same, or slightly lower ( due to not having the exact same curriculum) than public school students. It actually is somewhat surprising to me that they seem to score slightly higher.

To me, the call for greater standardization and accountability for home schooling is pretty much the same as all the over-regulation due to people's perceptions of " welfare queens" . Do some people abuse the system? Of course. Is it a big enough problem that ridiculously expensive and burdensome and counter-productive requirements are put on all welfare recipients? In my opinion, no.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I find it odd that a school district wouldn't be allowed to require a curriculum when enrolling a child.

Just a random musing, but: if you want the best for your child, and you send them to an actual school after homeschooling, why would you not give the school details on your curriculum, regardless of whether or not it's required? Wouldn't the best way to determine where your child stands/possible gaps be to give all the information you can to the school? :think: It almost sounds like something is being hidden.

Not every homeschool family HAS curriculum. You can teach your children without buying a ton of crap written by other people based on what they feel is the best way to school children and may have no baring on your child's learning. Many people exclusively use field trips, experts, life experiences, and the library to teach their children the necessary skills. And none of that is curriculum.

Not to mention, children don't always learn in the linear fashion demanded by curriculum. In fact, very few do.

[utter solitude]

Not every homeschool family HAS curriculum. You can teach your children without buying a ton of crap written by other people based on what they feel is the best way to school children and may have no baring on your child's learning. Many people exclusively use field trips, experts, life experiences, and the library to teach their children the necessary skills. And none of that is curriculum.

Not to mention, children don't always learn in the linear fashion demanded by curriculum. In fact, very few do.

I'm not saying anyone needs to buy or follow a pre-written curriculum. However, if your child is learning, they should be able to show that, yes? I don't see any issue with showing what your child has learned. Children in public and private schools have to show that they learned something, children being homeschooled should too.

Of course every child learns differently, and some have serious obstacles to overcome (disorders, learning disabilities, etc) but there should be some oversight to homeschooling, just as there is in public schools.

I know a woman who's son is severely behind in school. I'm not sure what disorders/disabilities are at play, but according to her cryptic statements, they are numerous and make it difficult for him to learn in a group setting. She wanted to "homeschool" him... but truly wanted him to get a job to avoid having to educate him. She was only discouraged from this when she learned that our state requires yearly testing. (Luckily, his father took over and he's in a special school where he is thriving) but my point is, it can be easy to abuse the homeschool system when it lacks basic oversight. I'm not advocating we make it difficult to homeschool... only that we ensure every child is treated fairly and ensure that they're learning.