Lori Alexander: Let it be ANYTHING but porn...

[Want More Babies]

Shane had to be a snarker. Please tell me he isn't real!

I have never understood why fundies get so upset with porn. To me, it's not that big of a deal (as long as it doesn't involve children or animals).

[Knight of Ni]

"Raunchy unbibilical things in bed."

Meaning, she wants to try a different position other than missionary. Maybe doggie-style. With the lights on. :o

[TrueRebel1]

My theory is, the more you try to control someone, the more enticing the "no-no" becomes, and the more desperate measures they take to get to it. In this case, fundie men are forbidden to watch even PG-13 movies, their wives never wear anything revealing, and men are supposed to avert their eyes if anyone or anything remotely appears "revealing" or "tempting". So when these men desperately crave something more than the jumper-clad bust of their wife, they all of a sudden become porn-addicts. (Well, by the definition of their wives and pastors, anyway.)

I don't entirely understand what fuels the extreme need for these fundies to make the rules that cause their men to "sin" so easily. Are the wives just so jealous and insecure in their relationship that they can't tolerate their husbands watching a raunchy movie, or admiring a pretty girl walking down the street...or looking at a little porn?

[salex]

My theory is, the more you try to control someone, the more enticing the "no-no" becomes, and the more desperate measures they take to get to it. In this case, fundie men are forbidden to watch even PG-13 movies, their wives never wear anything revealing, and men are supposed to avert their eyes if anyone or anything remotely appears "revealing" or "tempting". So when these men desperately crave something more than the jumper-clad bust of their wife, they all of a sudden become porn-addicts. (Well, by the definition of their wives and pastors, anyway.)

I don't entirely understand what fuels the extreme need for these fundies to make the rules that cause their men to "sin" so easily. Are the wives just so jealous and insecure in their relationship that they can't tolerate their husbands watching a raunchy movie, or admiring a pretty girl walking down the street...or looking at a little porn?

I think part of the fear and jealousy comes from the way marriage is put together for many of these people. If you don't meet, fall in love and self select-- if daddy picks someone and sticks you together, then part of you realizes you are just an interchangeable person in a slot called "wife." Husband may or may not find your type his type, and if you don't kiss until your wedding day, the spark of first kiss may melt into not much attraction. So, any interest toward other women, including noticing them, can be seen as a threat.

Toss in that a divorce (which happens despite fundie preference against it) leaves you as used goods, with some kids, and zero education or job skills to begin to support yourself. If Daddy then Hubby made all your life decisions... it might feel really frightening to consider ever being on your own.

So, if your hubs is noticing other women, when he didn't have the luxury to notice you, it means that you aren't measuring up and keeping him satisfied. Best prevent even a bit of temptation from coming in, because your livelyhood depends on the man your daddy picked for you keeping you in that wife slot.

[feministxtian]

I would disagree here about porn being harmless. It almost ended my marriage. My husband would look at XXX gay/threesome porn every damn day. It escalated into an affair w/a gay friend of mine from HS. The feelings of betrayal that he would watch that crap, that he would have an affair with another man nearly tore me apart and was one of the factors in our current separation. I told him "look, if you're gay, that's fine but let's end this sham". He refused and suddenly declared he was 100% straight (which I STILL don't believe).

For the straight spouse, it can be devastating. It leads to all sorts of really dark thoughts. BUT...I also refused to install any "net-nanny" crap on his laptop when he said he'd sworn it off. I expected him to keep his word. As far as I know he has.

[slickcat79]

I would disagree here about porn being harmless. It almost ended my marriage. My husband would look at XXX gay/threesome porn every damn day. It escalated into an affair w/a gay friend of mine from HS. The feelings of betrayal that he would watch that crap, that he would have an affair with another man nearly tore me apart and was one of the factors in our current separation. I told him "look, if you're gay, that's fine but let's end this sham". He refused and suddenly declared he was 100% straight (which I STILL don't believe).

For the straight spouse, it can be devastating. It leads to all sorts of really dark thoughts. BUT...I also refused to install any "net-nanny" crap on his laptop when he said he'd sworn it off. I expected him to keep his word. As far as I know he has.

Umm...how is porn your problem here? The vast majority of people who watch porn do not cheat on their partners, and it does not lead to "dark thoughts". Porn didn't make your husband cheat on you, he cheated because he's clearly interested in men and feels he needs to hide it. Porn didn't magically end your marriage, your husband's lies did. It's extremely likely that he would have still cheated (possibly sooner) without the porn. Correlation =/= causation, especially when the correlation doesn't even exist in most cases.

[AnywhereButHere]

"Raunchy unbibilical things in bed."

Meaning, she wants to try a different position other than missionary. Maybe doggie-style. With the lights on. :o

For some reason, I keep reading that as umbilical. If I weren't at work, I'd google umbilical porn just to seee what I came up with. I'd try it at home too, but my husband would probably think I'm stranger than he already does. :P

[PennySycamore]

Oh, I didn't mean some kind of software filter people get specifically to screen things out. I meant just on your typical google or other search engines one of the settings on your computer when you search, along with all the other settings, is generally one that screens out most of the porn, so you're less likely to stumble across it. But if you don't have that little checkbox ticked you can get some pretty hardcore stuff without even trying.

I don't have any checkbox ticked and I still don't get hard core porn. I could, but I'd have to look for it.

[ILoveJellybeans]

For some reason, I keep reading that as umbilical. If I weren't at work, I'd google umbilical porn just to seee what I came up with. I'd try it at home too, but my husband would probably think I'm stranger than he already does. :P

Rule 34. If something exists, there is porn of it.

Hellena and Currawong had sex right after delivering the first of her twins, but before the second was born, even though the umbilical cord of the first was still hanging out.

[church_of_dog]

Rule 34. If something exists, there is porn of it.

Hellena and Currawong had sex right after delivering the first of her twins, but before the second was born, even though the umbilical cord of the first was still hanging out.

To be fair, they were doing it (IIRC) to try to encourage the delivery of the second twin, who wasn't forthcoming, not because they just wanted to push the salacious envelope. Still a bit eye-opening, but only because twins with time between their delivery is less common, I think. I've heard of lots of situations where a couple has sex to try to prompt along a slow birth, so that by itself isn't all that odd, IMO.

[polecat]

Umm...how is porn your problem here? The vast majority of people who watch porn do not cheat on their partners, and it does not lead to "dark thoughts". Porn didn't make your husband cheat on you, he cheated because he's clearly interested in men and feels he needs to hide it. Porn didn't magically end your marriage, your husband's lies did. It's extremely likely that he would have still cheated (possibly sooner) without the porn. Correlation =/= causation, especially when the correlation doesn't even exist in most cases.

Porn may not have been her problem, but maybe it was the symptom of a problem. Lots of people blame the other man/other woman in an affair, so I don't think she's that out of line for blaming the porn. It's a lot easier blaming someone or something else than it is to blame the person you love.

OP: It's entirely possible that your husband is bisexual rather than gay but has maybe never really explored that side of himself before. I hope all works out for you!

[AnywhereButHere]

Rule 34. If something exists, there is porn of it.

Hellena and Currawong had sex right after delivering the first of her twins, but before the second was born, even though the umbilical cord of the first was still hanging out.

Good Point. Okay, now I'm so not Googling it. I do not need to see that live and in color. :lol:

[polecat]

To be fair, they were doing it (IIRC) to try to encourage the delivery of the second twin, who wasn't forthcoming, not because they just wanted to push the salacious envelope. Still a bit eye-opening, but only because twins with time between their delivery is less common, I think. I've heard of lots of situations where a couple has sex to try to prompt along a slow birth, so that by itself isn't all that odd, IMO.

I have heard of people using sex to stimulate labor, but there's something kind of disturbing about actually having sex while your wife is in the process of giving birth. I don't even see how that didn't hurt. (Also, what the heck was arousing about that situation?). When I had my kids, I wanted nothing more than to hold them. Had my husband said, "Ok, babe, let's get this puppy going again!" mid-contraction, I might've lost my temper and become one of those feminist harridans who dares scream during labor.

Disclaimer: I'm referring to a sad-but-funny thread over in quiverfull of misogyny where men were sobbing hysterically about the verbal abuse they have to put up with during labor.

[GolightlyGrrl]

"Raunchy unbibilical things in bed."

Meaning, she wants to try a different position other than missionary. Maybe doggie-style. With the lights on. :o

Or be on top like a whore!

[treehugger]

I have heard of people using sex to stimulate labor, but there's something kind of disturbing about actually having sex while your wife is in the process of giving birth. I don't even see how that didn't hurt. (Also, what the heck was arousing about that situation?). When I had my kids, I wanted nothing more than to hold them. Had my husband said, "Ok, babe, let's get this puppy going again!" mid-contraction, I might've lost my temper and become one of those feminist harridans who dares scream during labor.

Disclaimer: I'm referring to a sad-but-funny thread over in quiverfull of misogyny where men were sobbing hysterically about the verbal abuse they have to put up with during labor.

To be completely fair to Hellena and Currawong - they did not have PIV sex during labour. Apparently she gave him a BJ, because sperm is supposed to bring on labour. She added a P.P.S. with the lovely graphic details to this post here: spunoutpost.blogspot.ca/2010/11/natural-birthing-of-twins.html

[DGayle]

My husband has one of those damn "accountability" programs on his computer. Maybe it's just me, but I think it takes some effort to find real hard core porn on the internet. I can easily find stuff that some people might find objectionable* or soft core (and most of the time not accidentally), but the real thing takes some looking for. You don't just stumble across it. Am I wrong about that? Why can't these guys exercise some self-control?

* Some people find pretty much everything objectionable.

Turn the safe-search off in Google and search again. Do an image-search for "nun."

[DGayle]

I'm trying to figure out why two grown adults have to have accountability software on their computer. If you have so little trust in someone maybe you shouldn't be with them.

My husband and I don't even bother with each other's passwords. We also have out own computers. We are also fine accessing each other's computers because we trust each other not to snoop and not to be up to anything illegal. We are also fine with sharing passwords if we even care to know.

Then you have that husband and wife who need weekly internet reports to monitor where they go online.

[DGayle]

Really? You must be using some pretty soft words if you aren't coming up with hard core porn, or maybe your search engine is set to "exclude adult websites/images" , that's a common default setting, because otherwise I don't know how you're not finding it, at least if Google is your search engine. There really is a ton of stuff out there, with every possible variation you could think of and about a million more you wouldn't think of :shock:

Rule 34. I've tested it, and even the most mundane things have porn.

[GiGi_41]

As for google, I think a lot of what you get depends on analytics. I use google image everyday for work using my personal computer on my internet (so no net nanny). I looked up a lot these last few days and I have yet to get porn. But I don't ever search for visual porn so it might be farther down on the list for me.

[Joan of Snarc]

Or be on top like a whore!

Likes raunchy unbiblical things in bed

should be a post count title!

[FJismyheadship]

Ken's Big Wall O' Text to Shane (can Ken's Big Wall O' Text be a post count? I'm sure Ken would secretly enjoy it lol)

Please note he needed to type THREE COMMENTS to get this in, I wasn't aware blogger or wordpress had a character limit on comments, but it appears Ken found it.

Hi Shane,

I am so sorry to hear about your wife’s addiction. There are a small percentage of women whose sex drives are significantly above the average man’s. I will be glad to share my thoughts on the subject, so long as all readers recognize that I have little experience on this particular subject, and although much of what I will say is Biblically based, some is human wisdom or personal ideas.

Before we go too far, let’s set the record straight, that no matter where the addiction comes from, and no matter how deep or depraved the sin, the only real cure for sin is the cross of Christ Jesus. Only when sin is placed completely at His feet can it be gone forever, but until such a time, we are called to deal with our sins as best we can, and with all the resources we have available.

Again, our greatest resource as Believers is being in Christ and knowing that Christ is in us. All sin falls away from those who truly know who they are in Christ. Moving your wife from where she is now to where she needs to go will require far more than behavior modification and locks on the Internet. It requires changed thinking by replacing the lies she believes from Satan with the truth of the gospel of God’s Word. Changed behavior cannot happen until one changes their thinking. This is true in the human realm and spiritual realm that we will always behave according to how we think. That is why dealing with your wife’s behavior will pale in terms of success compared to dealing with her thinking. Find out what lies she is telling herself and try and help her replace them with the truth.

We should recognize that many addictions come out of a heart cry to self-medicate. It may seem weird to think of porn as a medication, but to some that is what it feels like as it is used to mask, or to hide some deep seated perceived needs, hurts and pain. If a woman is knee deep in the muck of porn I would suspect that something has gone wrong in her life, especially her sex life, perhaps back as far as her childhood. Was there sexual abuse, a feeling of abandonment, or some interference that has stunted this person’s spiritual and personal growth?

How about shame? Is shame a big part of your wife’s mental and spiritual makeup? I believe shame may play a big role in porn for women. Not just the shame that one is in the porn, but shame driving them to porn, especially the BDSM aspects. The sense is that she needs punishment and is not getting it, so the next best thing is to watch it. Her shame may be related to something that has happened to her or that she has done in the past, and until it is dealt with will continue to drive her shame, and ultimately drive her to try and gain a brief respite from her shame in a very unsavory manner. Google shame and female porn and you may get a lot of ideas from where your wife is getting her lies, and it may have started back many years ago.

So your job, as a loving husband is to get inside the real mind, feelings and hidden places of your wife’s thinking, and the only way to do this is to create a relationship where she trusts you. If she does not trust you completely, she will not open up, because she will be fearful that you will judge her, or laugh at her, or tell her to simply stop it. If we could all just stop our bad behavior overnight it would be ideal, but that is not happening. Instead this will be a journey the two of you embark on together and is part of the process of two becoming ONE in Christ.

How can you be one if you do not know your wife completely, warts, sins and all? How can she be one with you if she does not know that no matter what, you will love her unconditionally? That you hate her sin, but that the person she is you are 100% committed to seeking her best interest in god times and in bad. Does she know this from you or is she feeling she is only loved when she is a “good person?†There is lots to explore. So stop working so much on her behavior and start trying to understand her deepest person, only then may you start sees changes.

cont. part 2 to Shane

Here are the practical steps I might take to try and heal my wife’s addiction:

1) There needs to be lots of cuddling and talking. You cannot get to the heart of the issue without long hours of communications. So set up a time to talk for an hour or two at a time a few times each week, maybe every night for a week and explain this is a safe place. Whatever you share with me here will be forgiven the moment you share it. Be Christ to her and just listen and ask questions. Be gracious and kind, and almost clinical in your approach. Repeat the promises of God as you hear the hurtful words, “I can do all things through Christ†and “God will never give me more than I can handle†and “Sin has no hold on me.†That includes the sins of others, even my spouse.

2) Believers will want to draw near to Christ and the cross each day. Begin regular daily Bible devotions and prayer time. Do not get out of bed in the morning or get to sleep at night without having devotions. Get Spurgeon’s daily devotional and read it, and then a chapter of the Bible and pray together.

3) Begin studying what it means to be a New Creature in Christ and Alive to Christ and Dead to Sin. Look it up on the Internet or email us and I will send you articles I have written on the subject. The cure for sin is knowing who we are in Christ and then believing it in a moment by moment walk in the Spirit. Begin to model what Christ looks like to your wife, especially in areas of grace, forgiveness and love. Ask yourself what is the goal here? Is it to win your wife or hurt your wife? To show her Christ, or make her pay for her sins towards you? Which one looks like Jesus?

4) Try to set up with your wife some accountability system that she will agree to. Remember, just because she agrees does not mean she can keep it. If she is a believer she will in her heart want to end her addiction and be healed, but in her mind she will think she cannot give it up. Once you have set up a good accountability structure then follow through on it consistently. For instance, you may both agree that you will ask her every morning if she “put no worthless thing before her eyes†and she is to answer truthfully. You do not need to know the details, just a “yes†or “no†if Jesus was pleased?

From a human standpoint pain and pleasure are two of the greatest motivators. Try to get her to agree on penalties for breaking the accountability standards. Get her involved in making the penalties uninvited and unpleasurable enough so that it helps make her think twice if she really wants to sin. Be creative with her and find things she will consider to be difficult or unwanted. Help mitigate the seeming pleasure of porn with her thinking that this will add two more hours of housework, or she has to clean out the garage, no Starbucks for a week, two thirty minute back rubs she owes you. Be creative but get her to agree that she cannot have porn pleasure without some practical consequences. Just make her thinks twice, do I really want to do this.

If you are inconsistent in your accountability, or inconsistent in giving consequences, most likely the accountability will become worthless. She is now like a child who wants to get away with her sin with no consequences, so as soon as you slack off she will go running for the mud. So how long may you have to ask her every morning if she has sinned? Maybe every morning the rest of your lives to help protect her. You be her source of accountability and discipline whether she asks for your help or not. That is your role as the leader of your marriage. Even if you can force little on her, you can get her to feel that you will be consistent in your responsibility and eventually she has no place to hide.

cont. part 3 to Shane

5) Seek help from a Christian counselor. If you go to a non-Christian they will most likely have you on the couch trying to convince you that porn is good for your marriage and to get into it with her. Wrong! A Christian counselor will have many better ideas and ideals perhaps than I can give you in that they have hopefully seen what works and does not work. Remember, until Christ gets ahold of her addiction all you can do is deal with her in a loving, gracious and forgiving way, and in human ways. Read the book of Hosea who married a prostitute, and realize that God’s love flowing through you is what is most important right now, change or no change. Be committed to her for a lifetime of whatever it takes.

6) You say that your wife wants you to do things she has learned from porn in your sex life. I see very few things forbidden by God when it comes to sex within a marriage. I believe that sodomy is wrong, but apart from that if the two of you agree, there are very few things that God has disapproved of in His Word. Can you get her to agree that if you go along with some of the milder stuff she will agree to only get her sexual appetite filed with you. Move her desire away from porn and into your marriage bed, so long as what is done is holy and acceptable to the Lord.

7) Lastly, it is often after binging on a sin like porn or drugs that a person finally gives it up. Keep that in mind as your move forward that it may take her running headlong into her sin before she will seek the help and accountability she needs. Will you be there for her when she has stopped wallowing in the mud like the Father was for His prodigal son? Can she count on you to love her no matter what? Are you maybe the only person who can show her what Jesus really looks like in the face of sin and pain?

Do not run from this burden that God has given you. As you work through it tell yourself this truth, that “someday, with God’s help, my marriage will be so much stronger and healthier because of what we struggled through together. I am the perfect man for my wife to redeem her and help set her free. I am becoming one with my wife through the most difficult of circumstances, and all to the glory of God… if I will only walk with Him by faith.†Tell her these things out loud with a smile and ears in your eyes.

God is using our spouses to help us become one with each other and with Him. Let us not despair when evil comes our way, but instead relish the fight as we use our greatest weapons of grace, forgiveness, and loving discipline to be God’s instrument to help move our spouse to where God wants them to go. Someone has to do it, so why not you and me?

Ok if someone wants to read through all that muck and post a TLDR go right ahead. I couldn't get past the first part of it.

It really bugs me. Does Lori use blogspot or wordpress? She has the blogspot address but the wordpress comment form, and this bugs me, because I wasn't aware you could have both.

[RosyDaisy]

"Raunchy unbiblical things in bed" = fundie speak for anything other than missionary position in the dark with minimal nudity.

[polecat]

I am so sorry to hear about your wife’s addiction. There are a small percentage of women whose sex drives are significantly above the average man’s. I will be glad to share my thoughts on the subject ...

No, Ken, we do not want to hear your thoughts on the subject, and zip your pants back up already.

*shudder*

[Phoebe]

No, Ken, we do not want to hear your thoughts on the subject, and zip your pants back up already.

*shudder*

Isn't it interesting that Ken would assume the "raunchy unbiblical things" in bed include BDSM? Projecting a little bit, eh Ken?

[louisa05]

I get so tired of the whole evangelical/fundie notion that every man has an uncontrollable lust problem that must be dealt with.

That is only true if we all agree to accept their unique definition of lust which is: "noticing that someone is (even slightly) attractive".

Prior to getting the hell out of evangelicalism, a friend of mine sent her husband off to a men's "accountability group" to deal with his "lust problem". His "lust problem" was precisely what I defined above. And the "accountability group" nearly destroyed their marriage. Among other things, they were pushed to avoid his wife even looking attractive to him in the privacy of their own bedroom. Because that is how legalistic these people can get.