Josiah and the Arm Twist

[Jessabel]

It goes deeper than that. If you live under the Gothard/ATI "umbrella of protection" you are not allowed to get any kind of job or go to school or do anything else where you'll have to answer to an authority figure who is not their kind of Christian.

Stepping out of the lurker shadows to ask about this--How is it ok for JD to be on the local police force then? Because he's close enough to home for the family to keep an eye on him?

We're a military family and I'm not a language prude by any means, but some of the terms my husband has dropped after being onboard for a while gross me out or make my jaw hit the floor, which isn't easy to do. JB and Michelle would likely have a stroke knowing their kids were being exposed to all that and then some.

[justoneoftwo]

Stepping out of the lurker shadows to ask about this--How is it ok for JD to be on the local police force then? Because he's close enough to home for the family to keep an eye on him?

We're a military family and I'm not a language prude by any means, but some of the terms my husband has dropped after being onboard for a while gross me out or make my jaw hit the floor, which isn't easy to do. JB and Michelle would likely have a stroke knowing their kids were being exposed to all that and then some.

He is a volunteer, so maybe that means he isn't under the authority as much? Also its possible that they know the people he is working with and so they are okay.

[Evilbad]

I still don't think his arm was twisted but this has gone down as FJ lore and you're clearly wrong if you believe otherwise lol

[aggieluv17]

Josiah would never have left a live set to call someone. Besides, there were several phones all around him.

I'm so confused by this all. I keep watching the clip over and over again to catch even a glimpse of what y'all are all describing and I see none of it. Why are you so dead set on the idea that something scandalous happened? If you ask me, there is more evidence against anything scandalous than there is for. It sounds like Jana is telling Josiah not to call anyone,and then almost immediately Jim Bob repeats the same thing. And the next scene with him looks like his is scratching an itch and zoning out.

And besides, how can you be so sure what Josiah would or would not have done? It's possible that excitement might have taken over and he forgot. Let us remember that these people are the Duggars. Having another kid, while completely ridiculous to most normal people, is "exciting" for them. I don't see why it is so far fetched that he could be racing to go call someone out of happiness.

The whole arm twist thing just sounds ridiculous.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm so confused by this all. I keep watching the clip over and over again to catch even a glimpse of what y'all are all describing and I see none of it. Why are you so dead set on the idea that something scandalous happened? If you ask me, there is more evidence against anything scandalous than there is for. It sounds like Jana is telling Josiah not to call anyone,and then almost immediately Jim Bob repeats the same thing. And the next scene with him looks like his is scratching an itch and zoning out.

And besides, how can you be so sure what Josiah would or would not have done? It's possible that excitement might have taken over and he forgot. Let us remember that these people are the Duggars. Having another kid, while completely ridiculous to most normal people, is "exciting" for them. I don't see why it is so far fetched that he could be racing to go call someone out of happiness.

The whole arm twist thing just sounds ridiculous.

I'm right there with you. I never heard or saw anything that even suggested he was upset or that he had been hurt.

Also, as far as the whole "phones all around" thing is concerned, we don't even know if he had a phone at that point; so there's nothing to say he could just whip his phone out. And, even if he did have a cell phone, he's at home. Not everyone carries their phone with them at all times at home. Especially if they aren't smart phones (which Josiah would not have).

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm right there with you. I never heard or saw anything that even suggested he was upset or that he had been hurt.

Also, as far as the whole "phones all around" thing is concerned, we don't even know if he had a phone at that point; so there's nothing to say he could just whip his phone out. And, even if he did have a cell phone, he's at home. Not everyone carries their phone with them at all times at home. Especially if they aren't smart phones (which Josiah would not have).

I'm not a proponent of the "arm twist theory". There is no real evidence for it.

However, I do not believe for a moment that a well-trained Duggar of his age would have bolted from a live, carefully orchestrated filming to find a phone when we know several of his siblings standing around him had phones on them. John David can be seen texting. Not sure what smart phones have to do with anything.

Bottom line is that Josiah almost ruined one of the few live, spontaneous moments the show has had. TLC had to recover by chopping everything up during the editing to try to disguise the fact that he bolted. This was not a scene they could re-shoot because they wanted genuine reactions from the kids. I don't think Jim Bob would have hurt him with the film crew around. But I do think Jim Bob was pissed as hell at him.

[TuringMachine]

I'm so confused by this all. I keep watching the clip over and over again to catch even a glimpse of what y'all are all describing and I see none of it. Why are you so dead set on the idea that something scandalous happened? If you ask me, there is more evidence against anything scandalous than there is for. It sounds like Jana is telling Josiah not to call anyone,and then almost immediately Jim Bob repeats the same thing. And the next scene with him looks like his is scratching an itch and zoning out.

And besides, how can you be so sure what Josiah would or would not have done? It's possible that excitement might have taken over and he forgot. Let us remember that these people are the Duggars. Having another kid, while completely ridiculous to most normal people, is "exciting" for them. I don't see why it is so far fetched that he could be racing to go call someone out of happiness.

The whole arm twist thing just sounds ridiculous.

I agree. I too have watched it over and over again and I'm pretty certain that Josiah ran off to call someone about the news. He smiled when they announced it, he's sisters playfully scolded him, and Jim Bob can be heard saying "yeah guys don't call anyone." I'm not convinced the Duggars aren't physical with their kids but I don't see anything to suggest it happened there.

[princessmahina]

Could he have been about to call Marjorie at the time? Like, first bonding and stuff and he wanted to share the news with her?

Somehow I don't think so. I don't think they would have been allowed to be good friends like that if there wasn't an understanding/agreement that they were "special friends" intended for courtship. Josiah would have been what, fifteen at the time? Would they even allow them to be SP that early?

[JenniferJuniper]

Somehow I don't think so. I don't think they would have been allowed to be good friends like that if there wasn't an understanding/agreement that they were "special friends" intended for courtship. Josiah would have been what, fifteen at the time? Would they even allow them to be SP that early?

This happened in 2011.

[roddma]

I never really thought there was an arm twist but something definitely peeved Jim Bob. No humper, but too many times we tend to look for things not there just becasue of our feelings about their beliefs.

[HarleyQuinn]

Poor Josiah probably got that damn rod when the crew left.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm not a proponent of the "arm twist theory". There is no real evidence for it.

However, I do not believe for a moment that a well-trained Duggar of his age would have bolted from a live, carefully orchestrated filming to find a phone when we know several of his siblings standing around him had phones on them. John David can be seen texting. Not sure what smart phones have to do with anything.

Bottom line is that Josiah almost ruined one of the few live, spontaneous moments the show has had. TLC had to recover by chopping everything up during the editing to try to disguise the fact that he bolted. This was not a scene they could re-shoot because they wanted genuine reactions from the kids. I don't think Jim Bob would have hurt him with the film crew around. But I do think Jim Bob was pissed as hell at him.

I said smart phones because many people don't just carry around flip phones when they're at home. Most people get in that habit when they're owners of smart phones.

Also, why would he think to borrow his sibling's phones. Even if he didn't have a phone of his own, it wouldn't make sense. There's a landline in the same room as him. If they were out in public and he bolted away to find a pay phone, that would be one thing. But his sibling's phones aren't his own, and it doesn't make any sense for him to act like they should just fork it over for him.

Also, I'm sorry, but the Duggar kids are not well-trained. If they were, the middle boys (of which Josiah is a part of) would not be called the howlers.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Poor Josiah probably got that damn rod when the crew left.

Okay, we don't even know the arm twist happened. I think it's harmful to suggest that on top of the "arm twist," Josiah was then beaten. Especially since, as far as I can tell, Josiah never actually looked or acted upset.

As someone mentioned above you, people project their own feelings on these kids, and that's why people interpret it as he's upset. I sincerely doubt any Duggar would be upset about a pregnancy based on their beliefs.

[HarleyQuinn]

Okay, we don't even know the arm twist happened. I think it's harmful to suggest that on top of the "arm twist," Josiah was then beaten. Especially since, as far as I can tell, Josiah never actually looked or acted upset.

As someone mentioned above you, people project their own feelings on these kids, and that's why people interpret it as he's upset. I sincerely doubt any Duggar would be upset about a pregnancy based on their beliefs.

I doubt anyone will take my musings as fact. The way I saw the scene, he looked upset/worried and JB looked irritated. Their beliefs are strict, but even Gothard teaching can't beat every single emotion out of a child. They'll have an emotional moment every now and then, and I think Josiah had one here. :shrugs:

[heagleca]

I watched it a few times. This is something I've seen discussed before but was never able to watch/find online, so thank you to the person who posted it. Am I wrong, though, or did he not smile and say "really?" In a not-upset tone when it was announced? Then he bolts. It all happened so fast and I was watching on a phone. I just don't know if I see him being upset at the announcement. However, when they flash to him standing by JB later, he definitely has a very odd look on his face and it's very weird how he's holding his arm. Not saying he was hurt because I didn't see it that way, but he looked sulky and upset. If anything, I can buy the theory that he got reprimanded for leaving the live shot and he got upset about it.

[JenniferJuniper]

"They have a rod."

[shedemei]

Someone on here, in some thread, actually did a play-by-play with the longer version of the footage (IIRC, it was edited down more in bit later showings). You may want to search for that.

[lillybeth]

The youtube video worked for me. (I'm not linking for fear of it being removed, but you should be able to find it pretty easily)

Running off of part 3/3

8:13 - Josiah walks off.

8:18 - Jana : "Josiah, don't call ..." (Brie? or ...Jorie?)

8:25 - Jill (looking off camera): "Wait" (Jinger is also saying something looking off camera, but isn't audible)

8:26 - JB (off camera): something like don't make the call big guy

8:45 - Josiah reappears, Jim Bob holding his shoulder. Josiah is potentially scratching elbow.

8:47 - Start of new cut. Josiah is walking between group. Seen at 8:56 behind Michelle and Jana. Scratches arm and then touches nose.

tl;dr - Josiah walks off. People are heard saying things about calling. Reappears later.

[snarkykitty]

The youtube video worked for me. (I'm not linking for fear of it being removed, but you should be able to find it pretty easily)

Running off of part 3/3

8:13 - Josiah walks off.

8:18 - Jana : "Josiah, don't call ..." (Brie? or ...Jorie?)

8:25 - Jill (looking off camera): "Wait" (Jinger is also saying something looking off camera, but isn't audible)

8:26 - JB (off camera): something like don't make the call big guy

8:45 - Josiah reappears, Jim Bob holding his shoulder. Josiah is potentially scratching elbow.

8:47 - Start of new cut. Josiah is walking between group. Seen at 8:56 behind Michelle and Jana. Scratches arm and then touches nose.

tl;dr - Josiah walks off. People are heard saying things about calling. Reappears later.

I listened about 20 times and I listened very hard for Josiah's voice and to figure out the end of Jana's sentence.

8:12 Everyone says "really?", including Josiah

8:18 Jana says "Josiahhhhh....don't call(?) them. UH-UH" as she shakes her head back and forth.

8:21 Josiah (from the background) sounds like he said, "I wasn't laughing(?)" while a bunch of the Lost Boys are looking (presumably) in his direction with smirks on their faces.

I wish I was good at chopping audio and separating voices.

[Tiny Bubbles]

I get it that our beliefs can influence how we interpret events, and it's pretty funny sometimes to read different posters having completely different takes on things we have discussed. Our weird and wacky human brains doing their own things!

But, having said that, it's as plain as day (to me) that something unpleasant happened to Josiah offscreen during that announcement. Many of the kids start staring offscreen after he leaves, instead of congratulating Michelle. That sealed the deal for me, because it's not a matter of interpretation. ( I'd noted his flushed and upset appearance after returning, his arm rubbing, his positioning himself behind Michelle once JB removed his hand from his shoulder, and his muttering to another howler there - and come to my own conclusion.)

I'm in camp Twisted Arm on this one. But, since I don't have supernatural powers (other than my lasagna-making ability), I might be wrong, damnit.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I get it that our beliefs can influence how we interpret events, and it's pretty funny sometimes to read different posters having completely different takes on things we have discussed. Our weird and wacky human brains doing their own things!

But, having said that, it's as plain as day (to me) that something unpleasant happened to Josiah offscreen during that announcement. Many of the kids start staring offscreen after he leaves, instead of congratulating Michelle. That sealed the deal for me, because it's not a matter of interpretation. ( I'd noted his flushed and upset appearance after returning, his arm rubbing, his positioning himself behind Michelle once JB removed his hand from his shoulder, and his muttering to another howler there - and come to my own conclusion.)

I'm in camp Twisted Arm on this one. But, since I don't have supernatural powers (other than my lasagna-making ability), I might be wrong, damnit.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember too many of the kids, particularly the middle and younger ones, ever really congratulating Michelle when she was pregnant. Even in the Jill announcing her pregnancy (I didn't see the Jessa announcement) episodes, I don't remember the middle or younger kids seeming the least bit phased passed the initial staged "yay for you."

I don't blame them, either. Growing up quiverful means that women are always pregnant around you. It takes the excitement out of pregnancy when it's expected and run of the mill.

[Tiny Bubbles]

I could be wrong, but I don't remember too many of the kids, particularly the middle and younger ones, ever really congratulating Michelle when she was pregnant. Even in the Jill announcing her pregnancy (I didn't see the Jessa announcement) episodes, I don't remember the middle or younger kids seeming the least bit phased passed the initial staged "yay for you."

I don't blame them, either. Growing up quiverful means that women are always pregnant around you. It takes the excitement out of pregnancy when it's expected and run of the mill.

True, "congratulating Michelle" does sound ridiculously formal :embarrassed:

[Rescinded and Mended]

I've never seen anything specific that would indicate that Josiah had his arm twisted. I do think he looked shaken in the next scene where he was rubbing his elbow.

The way I remember it, Josiah ran off immediately after the announcement and then sort of bent over and lurched out of the frame, almost as if he were having a visceral reaction and was about to start vomiting.

But the one thing that always sticks with me is, if it was all so innocent, and Josiah really was running for the phone, then why did TLC edit out that entire sequence?

[JenniferJuniper]

I've never seen anything specific that would indicate that Josiah had his arm twisted. I do think he looked shaken in the next scene where he was rubbing his elbow.

The way I remember it, Josiah ran off immediately after the announcement and then sort of bent over and lurched out of the frame, almost as if he were having a visceral reaction and was about to start vomiting.

But the one thing that always sticks with me is, if it was all so innocent, and Josiah really was running for the phone, then why did TLC edit out that entire sequence?

I think it's important to put the timing into context.

Josiah was 14 at the time of the Jubilee announcement. Michelle says he is her most sensitive child. She had nearly died less than 2 years earlier having Josie. His sister was born on the cusp of viability and was also in danger for a long time. The entire family had their lives turned upside down with the extended stay in Little Rock. Their parents, barely available to them during good times, were completely preoccupied. It must have been a chaotic, scary time.

Fast forward to the Jubilee announcement. He managed a weak smile and then bolted. Several of his siblings were clearly concerned about what he did. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that he didn't feel he could keep sweet enough to stay on camera. At 14 under those circumstances I would not have been joyful about the thought of another sibling. I would have been frightened and angry at my parents for putting their baby collecting ahead of common sense. But Duggar kids can't express those sorts of emotions, certainly never on camera.

He was brought back to the fold at some point, looking upset. I think he was still upset about the announcement, not about some phantom arm twist. Although I don't doubt that after the crew left he was punished for screwing up the scene.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I've never seen anything specific that would indicate that Josiah had his arm twisted. I do think he looked shaken in the next scene where he was rubbing his elbow.

The way I remember it, Josiah ran off immediately after the announcement and then sort of bent over and lurched out of the frame, almost as if he were having a visceral reaction and was about to start vomiting.

But the one thing that always sticks with me is, if it was all so innocent, and Josiah really was running for the phone, then why did TLC edit out that entire sequence?

Because TLC heavily edits and doesn't seem to care about continuity.