Ken Explains it All - Lori & Ken Alexander - Part 3

[ShesCrafty]

How many times do I have to say that 100% of the responsibility for the rape is the man's? You just don;t like anyone to give advice to not walk down an dark alley, or do not get skunk drunk and expect that n consequences come for that form of behavior. Let's just live our lives however we want and blame everyone else for what happens to us, because it really is their fault. Right?

If you believe 100% of the responsibility for rape is the man's, then why did you say this:

If one frequents bars, gets drunk, gets stoned, they have a huge responsibility in the outcome of what happens next.

You're either lying, or really, really bad at math. I'm not sure which, but I do know one thing: you're a rape apologist, and in my opinion that makes you a pathetic, twisted little man who isn't fit to be in the same room with a rape victim, let alone give them "advice". However, since I know my words will fall on deaf ears, I'll just say something that makes me feel good: FUCK YOU AND THAT MONSTER CUNT YOU'RE MARRIED TO.

[Coconut Flan]

The bottom line is you do not like her teaching and you want to shut it up or tame it for your purposes.

The door swings both ways. You don't like what some people here think of Lori and you want them to shut up, tame it, and/or remove it.

Please, Ken, also look at how much time you've devoted to this matter and how much it has taken you away from your business. Ask yourself if it's worth what it's causing you. I can agree it's disagreeable. It isn't wording I would use. Does it rise to the level of how many hours you've put into it? Only you can answer that one.

Now I need to contemplate a pedicure.

[Ken]

Sometimes I forget that the people we snark on are real people with feelings. So, I'm going to take a minute to sincerely apologize if I have said anything hurtful or untrue. As far as I know, calling someone a monster is not illegal. It's not nice, but some of the things Lori has said on her blog are not nice. I try not to engage in name calling, so if I ever called Lori a monster, I apologize. However, I think her beliefs are terrible. Some of her actions are terrible. Everyone makes mistakes, (I know I'm not perfect) and I think people should be forgiven for their bad choices, but Lori not only justifies her bad choices using the bible, but encourages others to make the same choices.

My problem isn't with Lori's blog, or Lori and ken as individuals. My problem is with conservative Christianity in general. You have a group of people reading a book written thousands of years ago in ancient Palestine. Obviously, since god didn't write a sequel, people interpret it to make it relevant to today. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is when you call anyone on an interpretation you see as wrong, then you hate religion, or you hate god. You must be an atheist, a feminist , a fill in the blank, not true believer. When you object to conservative Christians wanting to involve the bible in politics, wanting to pass laws based on the bible, you're "taking away their religious freedom". And you can't have a debate, because you will never win with someone who believes that god is on their side.

I think a person's spiritual beliefs are a personal matter, but when a person, or group of people, uses their beliefs as an excuse to hurt others, that's not ok. When they use the bible to justify misogyny, child abuse, or homophobia, thats not ok. I would never say these things on Lori's blog, because we're not going to agree anyway. Our worldviews are so far apart, there would be no point. So I come here, and snark on people I believe are disseminating harmful beliefs, with other people who see them as harmful, and may have been hurt by these beliefs.

I am sorry if you feel ganged up on, Ken. This can be an intimidating group when you don't agree. Most of the people here are intelligent and well educated. (I'm often out of my depth here) You probably feel here the way I would feel if I tried to debate a group of conservative Christians, so I will give you some credit for coming back, and I think trying to hear the other side. With a few exceptions, I think we've mostly been polite :) I would recommend reading other threads that are less personal if you want an idea of what the people here believe.

My issue is not with the legality of things, at least not at this stage, but with common human decency. I have regularly appealed to the goodwill of the group and Owner to stop the damage and harm perpetuated on my wife OUTSIDE of the Forum. I ma concerned for the libelous language used against me in the past, but have seen only a little of this since I jumped onto the thread.

Why does a wrong have to be actionable, or winnable in court to have the parties who have done the harm work towards making things right? Is this not what fairness and justice demands? Our courts are filled. Can't teh grown ups here work this out?

Yes, this is not a kind place, nor a generous one, nor loving... actually one cannot find even one fruit of the Spirit on this Forum unless it is the practice of patience by some of us. You do not like conservative Christianity, and that is your right, but your group has no right to treat others unkindly or with aggressive tactics like the ones used to move the Crawler to put profanity and defamation directly under my wife's name. I see it right under at times, or 2-4 spots lower, but the last two weeks the defamation has been and continues to be obviously at the top of the search.

There are no excuses for this for decent people. None.. Zero. Watching how your group deals with this gives me some insight into the character of the group, and some individuals. Ask the Owner to contact Google and request the URL's are ignored by the BOT or Crawler and it will automatically be done. It is not hard to rectify this situation and this is what I have repeatedly requested.

It is no wonder that some resort to payback and legal means. I am not generally of this mindset, but frustration and impatience with mindless excuses, and an appeal to legal protections over common decency, wears thin.

[polecat]

My issue is not with the legality of things, at least not at this stage, but with common human decency. I have regularly appealed to the goodwill of the group and Owner to stop the damage and harm perpetuated on my wife OUTSIDE of the Forum. I ma concerned for the libelous language used against me in the past, but have seen only a little of this since I jumped onto the thread.

Why does a wrong have to be actionable, or winnable in court to have the parties who have done the harm work towards making things right? Is this not what fairness and justice demands? Our courts are filled. Can't teh grown ups here work this out?

Yes, this is not a kind place, nor a generous one, nor loving... actually one cannot find even one fruit of the Spirit on this Forum unless it is the practice of patience by some of us. You do not like conservative Christianity, and that is your right, but your group has no right to treat others unkindly or with aggressive tactics like the ones used to move the Crawler to put profanity and defamation directly under my wife's name. I see it right under at times, or 2-4 spots lower, but the last two weeks the defamation has been and continues to be obviously at the top of the search.

There are no excuses for this for decent people. None.. Zero. Watching how your group deals with this gives me some insight into the character of the group, and some individuals. Ask the Owner to contact Google and request the URL's are ignored by the BOT or Crawler and it will automatically be done. It is not hard to rectify this situation and this is what I have repeatedly requested.

It is no wonder that some resort to payback and legal means. I am not generally of this mindset, but frustration and impatience with mindless excuses, and an appeal to legal protections over common decency, wears thin.

Dude. You're the one who brought up legal threats.

As for criticizing the Christianity of others, don't even. Jesus had some pretty harsh words for whited sepulchers and had no problem being physically violent to wrongdoers. There's nothing wrong with Christians calling out other Christians for perpetuating abuse towards the little ones and those who are defenseless. I'm far from a nasty person, but when people start talking about hitting kids, beating kids, BRUISING kids, for pity's sake and saying that rape victims bear responsibility ... nope. Not going to sit on my fingers out of some misguided attempt to protect my reputation as a Christian.

I'd even go so far as to say that sitting silent in the face of abuse goes against everything Christ ever taught.

[ShesCrafty]

My issue is not with the legality of things, at least not at this stage, but with common human decency. I have regularly appealed to the goodwill of the group and Owner to stop the damage and harm perpetuated on my wife OUTSIDE of the Forum. I ma concerned for the libelous language used against me in the past, but have seen only a little of this since I jumped onto the thread.

Why does a wrong have to be actionable, or winnable in court to have the parties who have done the harm work towards making things right? Is this not what fairness and justice demands? Our courts are filled. Can't teh grown ups here work this out?

Yes, this is not a kind place, nor a generous one, nor loving... actually one cannot find even one fruit of the Spirit on this Forum unless it is the practice of patience by some of us. You do not like conservative Christianity, and that is your right, but your group has no right to treat others unkindly or with aggressive tactics like the ones used to move the Crawler to put profanity and defamation directly under my wife's name. I see it right under at times, or 2-4 spots lower, but the last two weeks the defamation has been and continues to be obviously at the top of the search.

There are no excuses for this for decent people. None.. Zero. Watching how your group deals with this gives me some insight into the character of the group, and some individuals. Ask the Owner to contact Google and request the URL's are ignored by the BOT or Crawler and it will automatically be done. It is not hard to rectify this situation and this is what I have repeatedly requested.

It is no wonder that some resort to payback and legal means. I am not generally of this mindset, but frustration and impatience with mindless excuses, and an appeal to legal protections over common decency, wears thin.

The rape apologist thinks he can tell the difference between decent and indecent people. I find the irony... delicious.

[salex]

Herein has been one of my biggest issues with you and salex in that you press fr changes in Lori's blog because of a .0000001 chance someone may be harmed, without a modicum of proof that such a thing has, or ever will happen. The bottom line is you do not like her teaching and you want to shut it up or tame it for your purpose

What? I don't respect her "teaching" but mostly, I've been debating you on the ideas you post here and on her blog--if it is the same as her teaching, great, but I've been debating you.

I don't anticipate Lori will change her blog, or even stop deleting any negative responses. But I believe she is very wrong in much of what she posts. There is an old saw that no one is more legalistic than a reformed sinner, and that seems to me to describe and perhaps explain Lori's stance on wifely submission.

I have said, before and since your arrival, that I hate giving Lori clicks, so I don't go often to her blog. i have been there more since you arrived than all times combined previously. I have been debating you on the points you brought up, using direct quotes from you and her from the blog as reference.

You asked for 3 questions... I'll give them.

1) In what way does equality under the law for men and women destroy western civilization? You said Feminism was doing this, and here is the definition of feminism:

: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. (At the risk of using another question, do you somehow believe that civil rights is a zero sum game?)

2) Do you believe that our government and society would be more in line with God's design if women were not permitted to vote?

3) You have gone back and forth on egalitarian marriages, vs submissive/subservient marriages vs mutually submissive marriages. You have also acknowledged that people can have happy successful marriages that are egalitarian, or wife submissive or mutually submissive, however only wife submissive marriages are biblical. Do you believe that people are not truly saved if they don't follow the submissive model of marriage that you have said is the only truly biblical model for marriage. Are women and men who do not follow the wife submissive model not saved or risking salvation? (Please adjust the terminology for "saved" as needed for your particular theology, since I don't know if you believe people "get saved" or not.)

Give me three of the most difficult questions you feel I have ignored. If I answer them clearly for you will you finally stop changing your targets? I cannot keep answering question after question with nothing in return except you move on to another mischaracterization.

These are not difficult, but I believe they have been ignored and are pertinent. They should be able to be answered in a fairly straightforward way. I wonder if you think we mischaracterize your answers simply because we don't agree or aren't swayed by your answers. (This is a rhetorical question, and does not need an answer so I'm still at 3 questions ) :|

[FJismyheadship]

This place is not kind, generous, or loving.

Every year we have a fundraiser for charity.

A lot of us were scammed by RR because we gave freely to a woman we THOUGHT was trying to escape from her abusive family and have a better life for herself.

I believe at one point several members came together to buy another member a car when hers broke down.

Have you been outside this thread? We mourn for Jahi McMath and the cruelty her family inflicts upon her body. We mourn for those who were on the mussing flight, and hope they are all safe. We lift each other up, encourage one another.

But we aren't loving, generous, or kind.

[Ken]

Ken, I want to put your “bullying" into perspective. I want you to Google Sandra Fluke. Look at the nasty, vulgar things written about her. Check out the Photoshopped images. Think about what she did to deserve that. She testified in front of congressional members about her belief that birth control should be an expense covered by insurance. That's it. She didn't advocate for government sponsored orgies; she merely felt that women should have the same consideration as a man needing Viagra.

Can you honestly say that Lori has been subject to that level of vulgar derision? Have any of FJ's member even remotely come close to that?

Now, remember in the beginning of this conversation when you defended spanking by saying that the world was a tough place and one should prepare your children for it? I think you and Lori need to go back over that lesson.

I was not going to respond to this nonsense, but can't resist. Are you implying that because some evil people hit other innocent people they simply don;t like 20 times with a baseball bat, that I should be happy that Lori and I are only hit 5-6 times by this Forum? That somehow we should be happy that this group is not even more mean and nasty? I don't get it.

Yes, the world is a tough place, but that does not lessen the demands on decent people to do their best to keep it fair, clean and filled with justice. We not only taught our kids to be tough, but to be kind, gentle, loving and not to repay evil with evil. Obvious lessons that were not learned by many in this Forum.

Come on... are you really saying that because Lori is not treated with complete cruelty like Sandra Fluke that somehow we should be happy with just being treated cruelly or at least crudely? What if just under your name in Google is a bunch of profanity and defamation aimed right at you. Will you be happy and praise God that it does not rise to the level of Sandra Fluke's bullying???

[Stynjen]

I'm so sorry you went through this :( Did they prosecute the rapist?

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive to your situation, because I do not mean to be. I do not understand what men find inviting about a woman (or man) that is essentially unconscious. It just seems so...vulgar is the word that popped into my mind, but that isn't quite right. They say rape is not about sex, it's about power, but what kind of power can you feel over someone that is unconscious? I just can't wrap my mind around this type of behavior :(

I would never leave a friend alone if they were even mildly incapacitated, but I'm a worrier. I was always the DD, too.

Thank you. In my case the DA declined to prosecute, because the situation apparently rendered me a "less credible witness". :wtf: They did, however, tell me that "if" he ever does this again, the fact that I reported it could make the next person's case stronger. I periodically Google the fucker and since my attack he's been convicted, not once but two more times for rape, and each time he was sentenced to 5 years and served just barely over 2. Victim blaming is alive and well in Oklahoma, and considering it's in the bible belt, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Your comment wasn't at all insensitive, and it describes my feelings to a T. I think it takes a extra special asshole to attack an unconscious person. As for the worrying, I've got that in spades, and even before this happened to me I always looked out for my friends. It's a shame my friend didn't do the same for me.

[Koala]

Lori treated with cruelty??? Let me tell you something about Lori.

~She hit her own babies with a leather strap, because she likes pain- as long as it's someone else enduring it. She encourages other mothers to hit their kids harder when the hitting they are already doing proves uneffective

~She manipulated and deceived her way into conceiving a child (by disabling her birth control device) for the sole purpose of quitting her job

~She left her 3 week old babies to cry themselves to sleep all night (I can quote her on that, so don't bother denying it), so that she could sleep through the night herself

~She flicked the cheeks of nippy infants when nursing, because pain is a great teacher, but not for Queen Lori

~She spent 4 hours battling an 18 month old (taking turns spanking him). She reports that it was exhausting- for her.

~She singled out her 2 daughters to confront regarding weight issues, and both went on to battle body image issues, one bordering on anorexia. As a result she sees herself as a good model for how to handle weight issues with daughters, and encourages other fools to follow her flawed advice

~She has said that if her children abandoned the Christian faith, she'd wish they'd never been born

~She has ignored comments detailing horrific stories of child abuse on her blog

~She has advised one abusive mother to hit her daughter harder

~She claims she would not mind if women lost the right to vote

~She actively promotes the blog of a woman who promotes marital rape

~As a 10 year old child she abused her dog

~As a grown woman she reports trying to kick the family cat. Luckily she missed and hurt her own foot instead. Pain is a great teacher, amiright?

~She airs the details of her parents marriages on her blog, crediting them with her bad behavior

All of this to say, don't you dare come here and complain about people being cruel to Lori. She is an arrogant, busy body. She writes like a elementary school student in spite of the fact that she was once a teacher, and wouldn't know basic grammar if it knocked on her front door. She is patently unqualified to give anyone advice on marriage and parenting (particularly on the internet) unless her platform is: Lori Alexander: What not to do

ETA~ I don't believe in your God, and I don't think your Bible is worth the paper it's written on, but I'll tell you what I do know. If there is a God who happens to frown on the mistreatment of little ones, then Lori has a lot bigger problems than this message board.

[OkToBeTakei]

I was not going to respond to this nonsense, but can't resist. Are you implying that because some evil people hit other innocent people they simply don;t like 20 times with a baseball bat, that I should be happy that Lori and I are only hit 5-6 times by this Forum? That somehow we should be happy that this group is not even more mean and nasty? I don't get it.

Yes, the world is a tough place, but that does not lessen the demands on decent people to do their best to keep it fair, clean and filled with justice. We not only taught our kids to be tough, but to be kind, gentle, loving and not to repay evil with evil. Obvious lessons that were not learned by many in this Forum.

Come on... are you really saying that because Lori is not treated with complete cruelty like Sandra Fluke that somehow we should be happy with just being treated cruelly or at least crudely? What if just under your name in Google is a bunch of profanity and defamation aimed right at you. Will you be happy and praise God that it does not rise to the level of Sandra Fluke's bullying???

I actually understand what you are saying half the time. The other half I do not.

A lot of what I do online is to be able to warn my child what an unfair medium it can be. I think you have seen that.

Ken. PLEASE read this.

This forum is a very strange thing. Koala and I have had many disagreements. I have never met her and despite our disagreements I have never felt the urge despite our differences to threaten her with legal action. I suspect she feels the same, due to the fact my letterbox is devoid of legal writs. I do though admire her tenacity on this thread. Ken.....if you chose to explore this site you would see as individuals we can see beyond one thing but debate issues separately.

I was going to quote the answer you wrote me but hope you will just read this instead.

I do actually understand why you are upset. I think if Mr OK saw me described as a fucking monster he would be upset also. What person who loves another wants to see that person attacked in such a way? I get that. It's not 'nice.' You have to though understand that though not everybody is going to like what she writes. If she cannot deal with that, then instead of deleting it or expecting you to come to a place like this she should rethink the method of getting her message across.

I know my responses to you have been both at times serious and at others just totally ironical. I just don't understand your view. I am willing to admit that. You said that nobody here is willing to apologise for the things they may have said. I can see why you may think that. Can you see though, why the way you are going about making your point is very condescending?

I honestly think no matter how rational anybody here tries to appear it will fall on deaf ears. If after 15 years of an unhappy marriage the only way for Lori to make it happy was to capitulate/submit is not something that those who have happy relationships will understand. The way you have come across on this forum is both condescending, arrogant and a wee bit all over the place. Mate..HOW much time do you spend here? Even me the help-meet can't keep up :P

For what it's worth it is not nice your wife is called a monster. For what it's worth telling parents to hit their kids as long as it does not leave a mark is not Ok either. What comes around goes around.

[Pater Noster]

Concerning an older godly women giving advice to younger women, the Bible is silent on the subject of the use of the Internet to do such a thing.

Yes, Ken, this is true. Nowhere in the Bible is the word "internet" written. However, as a Christian myself, I have read and studied that passage, and it implies that when the older woman is discipling the younger woman, that there is a personal relationship involved, that the older woman knows the younger woman as a close friend, and that she uses that knowledge about the younger woman to guide her to be more mature/wise etc. It does not say, "give blanket advice about anything and everything to thousands of women whose lives/personalities/hearts/children you DO NOT KNOW." Lori doesn't know these women. This is not a way for an older woman to disciple younger women. She is not discipling, she is giving blanket advice. Discipling implies a long-term emotional and deeply PERSONAL investment into the life of another. Lori is not even remotely doing that. I have no doubt her intentions are good, but if she truly wants to invest into the lives of others, and disciple younger women, a blog is not a good way to do that. Blanket advice may help a few, but it ends of being unbelievably destructive 9 times out of 10.

[latraviata]

Lori treated with cruelty??? Let me tell you something about Lori.

~She hit her own babies with a leather strap, because she likes pain- as long as it's someone else enduring it. She encourages other mothers to hit their kids harder when the hitting they are already doing proves uneffective

~She manipulated and deceived her way into conceiving a child (by disabling her birth control device) for the sole purpose of quitting her job

~She left her 3 week old babies to cry themselves to sleep all night (I can quote her on that, so don't bother denying it), so that she could sleep through the night herself

~She flicked the cheeks of nippy infants when nursing, because pain is a great teacher, but not for Queen Lori

~She spent 4 hours battling an 18 month old (taking turns spanking him). She reports that it was exhausting- for her.

~She singled out her 2 daughters to confront regarding weight issues, and both went on to battle body image issues, one bordering on anorexia. As a result she sees herself as a good model for how to handle weight issues with daughters, and encourages other fools to follow her flawed advice

~She has said that if her children abandoned the Christian faith, she'd wish they'd never been born

~She has ignored comments detailing horrific stories of child abuse on her blog

~She has advised one abusive mother to hit her daughter harder

~She claims she would not mind if women lost the right to vote

~She actively promotes the blog of a woman who promotes marital rape

~As a 10 year old child she abused her dog

~As a grown woman she reports trying to kick the family cat. Luckily she missed and hurt her own foot instead. Pain is a great teacher, amiright?

~She airs the details of her parents marriages on her blog, crediting them with her bad behavior

All of this to say, don't you dare come here and complain about people being cruel to Lori. She is an arrogant, busy body. She writes like a elementary school student in spite of the fact that she was once a teacher, and wouldn't know basic grammar if it knocked on her front door. She is patently unqualified to give anyone advice on marriage and parenting (particularly on the internet) unless her platform is: Lori Alexander: What not to do

ETA~ I don't believe in your God, and I don't think your Bible is worth the paper it's written on, but I'll tell you what I do know. If there is a God who happens to frown on the mistreatment of little ones, then Lori has a lot bigger problems than this message board.

100 likes, I could have written it myself!!!!! Koala you are a star!!!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ditto to Koala, plus this:

1. Lori has made it pretty clear that she view spanking as mandatory, and says that those who don't do it are not doing things biblically.

2. She advocates strongly for Debi and Michael Pearl. She defends the book To Train Up a Child, which advocates using physical discipline starting when the child is an infant, and refuses to allow any discussion of the fact that there have been a few deaths caused by over-zealous discipline by parents who owned copies of To Train Up a Child. One child, Lydia Schatz, was killed as a result of being struck repeatedly with plumbing line and the parents explicitly told police that they followed the Pearl's philosophy.

3. When a commenter noted that the deaths all involved older adopted children and suggested that at least TTUAC should not be recommended for these children, Lori still said that she believed that the book can relate to any age child.

4. Hanna Williams (another death linked to TTUAC) was killed by hypothermia, and one of the shocking details that came out during the trial was that the girl was repeatedly forced to take cold showers. When a poster mentioned that she was having trouble disciplining her child even when she used cold showers, Lori never said that this was a dangerous and inappropriate method.

[OkToBeTakei]

Something else I noticed in all of this.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ken said people respect him. Do they? It's nice when folks do, It's just not generally a normal topic of conversation. 'I really respect you.' Is not something you require to be told unless you have to tell yourself that. In fairness being self employed is hard Mr OK is pretty good at his job. I know this. Well the recent bonus and his bringing in some tough contracts is testament. (See I just told you all are you impressed? :lol: )

Ken said people see him walking hand and hand with Lori.

Ken said people congratulate him on their 'good' children.

Is it just me or just Ken appear to care what others think of his life?

Do they hold hands in the privacy of their own home? Is it just for 'show?' In public.

I think he/they care for what other thinks.

Is this why this site bothers him so much?

[Stynjen]

I just went and read all of the comments on the blog someone posted yesterday, where Lori was imploring the blogger to not say mean things about the Pearls.

Reply

Lori Alexander says:

November 18, 2013 at 2:42 pm

Hi Shiela, I looked in the book and there daughter was 5 months old. Do you realize how thin 1/8 of an inch is? It probably barely hurt. Try it on yourself…You can’t do any damage with a twig that is 1/8 of an inch. All of my children crawled at 6 months of age. We would slap there hand and say “no†if they wanted to touch something they shouldn’t touch, like an electrical outlet. Yes, they would cry but they learned very quickly what “no†meant and obeyed us. The Pearls NEVER teach any form of wife or child abuse. Their book has been in print for almost 20 years and have sold millions of copies and it is only recent that they have these accusations leveled against them. They teach that not a bruise even should be left on a child. The Bible is very clear about using a rod. Also, I have been using Created To Be His Help Meet for over 10 years and I have never heard of one woman saying she was physically abused due to that book. They have 5 wonderful grown children. We spent a week with them. They are God-fearing people. They live simply and all the money their books bring in is spent on evangelizing “the ends of the earth.†Many people would love to destroy their ministry because of this and it pains me to see you doing it… I love the Pearls. They have changed my marriage and my life as well as many others. Just because a few evil parents who beat their children had the Pearl’s book in their home, does not mean the Pearls advocate anything even close to that. We raised our children exactly as they teach and they all walk in Truth and are lights in this dark world. PLEASE, Sheila, reconsider your attacks on them. Thank you. Love, Lori

I was struck when Lori said "We spent a week with them". WTF was that about? Do you think Michael and Debi Pearl offer weeklong retreats to teach people how to abuse their children?

[Ken]

You asked for 3 questions... I'll give them.

These are not difficult, but I believe they have been ignored and are pertinent. They should be able to be answered in a fairly straightforward way. I wonder if you think we mischaracterize your answers simply because we don't agree or aren't swayed by your answers. (This is a rhetorical question, and does not need an answer so I'm still at 3 questions ) :|

1) In what way does equality under the law for men and women destroy western civilization? You said Feminism was doing this, and here is the definition of feminism:

: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. (At the risk of using another question, do you somehow believe that civil rights is a zero sum game?)

Answer to #1: Equality under the law for men and women in NO WAY destroys western civilization and I am not opposed to such equality in any way. Feminism has some good things that it did, but I watch the negative results of it almost daily in the workplace and in the eyes of many women who long to live in a traditional era where her man provides for the family and she gets to be a SAHM.

I refer you to the following excellent article by a feminist pointing out the obvious flaws of where feminism has gone today. Few Superwomen exist who can have it all with family life and career and I find it very appropriate for conservative and feminist bloggers to point out the pitfalls that feminism has now created. My heart is heavy having so many female friends who long to be SAHM’s but the lies of the promises of feminism gone awry has them locked into working and careers AND trying to play Mom. If they had gone to church, selected a hardworking man as a spouse who had traditional values wanting his wife to be a SAHM, they would be so much more better off today in quality of life. Read the article for many other issues:

https://chronicle.com/article/Where-Fem ... ng/141293/

I do not know what you mean by civil rights a zero sum game? All men and women, and gays should have equal rights, but if your rights affect my rights, then they are no longer equal rights.

2) Do you believe that our government and society would be more in line with God's design if women were not permitted to vote?

Answer to #2: No… There is no doubt that women voted Obama and Clinton into office, and that is where some lament women’s voting rights, but not me. They have helped erode traditional values significantly, along with Hollywood. I think the decline of values in general is the cause of the decline in our society… so blame can be parsed out many directions, but not with women having equal rights.

3) You have gone back and forth on egalitarian marriages, vs submissive/subservient marriages vs mutually submissive marriages. You have also acknowledged that people can have happy successful marriages that are egalitarian, or wife submissive or mutually submissive, however only wife submissive marriages are biblical. Do you believe that people are not truly saved if they don't follow the submissive model of marriage that you have said is the only truly biblical model for marriage. Are women and men who do not follow the wife submissive model not saved or risking salvation? (Please adjust the terminology for "saved" as needed for your particular theology, since I don't know if you believe people "get saved" or not.)

Answer to #3: Submission of a wife to a husband is NOT an essential to the Christian faith. If it was, my wife would not have been saved for the first 23 years of marriage, and she was a fine Christian who struggled mightily in a coupe big areas of her life. But don’t we all have some struggles?

A wife can be saved and a born again Christian and NEVER be submissive to her husband, and a husband not as loving as he should be, yet he is still saved.

Salvation comes from believing in Jesus Christ, and such belief should lead to allowing Christ to be Lord of one’s life. But the Christian life is a process of living out in our lives what God says we are which is brand new people who are alive to Christ and dead to sin.

When sin continues in the life of a Believer it is due to one of three reasons:

1) Ignorance: They do not know the truth as taught by God’s Word the Bible. Many Christians know their Bible so very little, and rarely even read it every day or study it. They go to church where many pastors skirt the issue of submission because the church is made up of 60% women, many of whom will call him up angrily if he dared teach what the Bible actually says on the subject.

So ignorance is a huge reason why Christians sin, and why they do not desire to be submissive. That is why Lori has a role to clearly inform what the Bible teaches on an important marriage topic, but not an essential tenant of the faith. I can list a 30-40 far more important Christian tenets than submission. It is small potatoes compared to serving, kindness, generosity, love for others, etc. But again, in a marriage that wants to be Biblical it becomes an important issue.

2) We forget or the flesh seems too strong. Many times a Christian who truly wants to follow Christ forgets that he/she is a brand new person remade by God into one of His children. The appeal of the flesh and bodily appetites is very strong and it is easy to slip into old thinking patterns and bad behaviors.

Imagine a Christian who knows she should submit to her husband, but she is feeling fearful that her needs or wants will not be met, so she does not submit. She forgets for the moment or the week, or month that the God of the universe has come to live inside of her, and that she is to serve her husband and please him, trusting that both will not let her down in the long run.

Christians are pretty forgetful, even the strongest of us. Spiritual growth in the life of the believer is about remembering more and rusting more in what God says and promises. We grow up in Christ when we learn more of His truth and apply it more and more consistently to our lives. We will never be perfect in how we behave, but we know that Christ paid the price for our sins… all of them and has made us Children of God. Now we must go about life living out our new identity in Christ.

3) Willful disobedience. Christians sin many times because they choose to. Any Christian wives know they are supposed to be submissive and don’t want to, and do not think it is important.

God has a remedy for willful disobedience that He calls discipline. Most of the discipline I see from God is simply allowing His children to suffer the consequences of their sins. So an unsubmissive wife, like my wife was for years, loses out on so many blessings God, her husband and life could have given her because she is unwilling to do not just what God tells her to do, but what she willfully chooses not to do.

My wife’s blog deals with all three of these reasons why a wife is not submissive, and yet she never says a wife is not saved just because she does not follow everything God says we are supposed to do. God loves us like his child and he often just lets us mess up our lives if we choose to do so, but he is always ready to restore us and give us many blessings if we will just turn back to doing His ways. My wife has found so many blessings since the time she stopped being ignorant about submission, started believing that the God of the universe lives inside of her, and stopped willfully being unsubmissive.

What she discovered was that her husband loved her very much and wanted the best for her, without arguing and fighting… just getting closer to each other every day. But when you grow up not trusting men, it is hard to trust a husband or trust God, to be vulnerable and give up control so that you can be truly loved and cared for.

Submission is a Biblical concept reserved for those who want to live a Biblical marriage, or those who choose it for their own reasons. It is not to be forced upon a wife, nor is it to be considered a major Christian issue. BUT in troubled marriages, many wives find excellent results in turning the marriage around by showering their husband with kindness, respect, love, consideration, and pleasing him. ALL of these things, including serving him can be found in the words of Jesus, not just Paul. The only thing Paul adds is the leadership role of the husband, as the submissive role is established by the life of Christ who is our example for the Christian life.

Sorry for the length of this…. I have done all I can to be forthcoming, yet get accused for not being so.

[Koala]

Lori Alexander- Ignore your emotions and hurt your children:

Using corporal punishment isn't easy, especially for most women. We don't want to hurt our children. However, this is when we need to stop thinking with our emotions and do what is right long-term for our children. No, spanking my children was never easy but I knew I was suppose to do it so I did.

[Koala]

Lori Alexander- Fix the country with pain for criminals and spankings for children:

Our country has become more and more unsafe as we move farther and farther away from punishing criminals with pain and children with spankings.

[OkToBeTakei]

Ken.

Feminism or any other convenient word or misnomer you wish to use to further your opinion does not hide your prejudice :(

Why do you find it so hard to realise that people can be equal? Do you find your sons superior to your daughters?

Do you?

[Koala]

More, because when potential followers of Lori's advice find this thread, I want them to understand our disgust with Lori:

I had one that would never give in to anything, regardless of punishment, spanking did nothing but make her worse, time outs where a joke, finally I picked her up and threw her under a cold shower.

Lori Alexander replied:

A spanking will work if it is hard enough. We used a small leather strap on their behind and it hurt! There is no way a child will put up with that for long without obeying.

Not with her, we tried hand, and although I was against it belt, wooden spoon, cane everything she would just keep going, I stopped after I thought I broke her arm...

Lori completely abandons the conversation at this point, failing to retract her advice to hit harder, or express any manner of concern for the child's well being.

Ken Alexander had this to say:

but you know full well this was not an abusive mother

Indicating I assume that:

-cold showers do not= abuse

-belt, wooden spoons, caning do not= abuse

-think you broke your child's arm? this does not=abuse, and in fact it's might be the child's fault if they incurred the wound trying to defend themselves from the blows

Ken later admitted that either he or Lori had left a bruise(s) on one of their children. He felt bad about it, so I am sure in his mind it didn't = abuse

Moral of today's story? Be careful where you get your parenting advice.

[J'ean Skirt]

[

Answer to #1: Equality under the law for men and women in NO WAY destroys western civilization and I am not opposed to such equality in any way. Feminism has some good things that it did, but I watch the negative results of it almost daily in the workplace and in the eyes of many women who long to live in a traditional era where her man provides for the family and she gets to be a SAHM.

I refer you to the following excellent article by a feminist pointing out the obvious flaws of where feminism has gone today. Few Superwomen exist who can have it all with family life and career and I find it very appropriate for conservative and feminist bloggers to point out the pitfalls that feminism has now created. My heart is heavy having so many female friends who long to be SAHM’s but the lies of the promises of feminism gone awry has them locked into working and careers AND trying to play Mom. If they had gone to church, selected a hardworking man as a spouse who had traditional values wanting his wife to be a SAHM, they would be so much more better off today in quality of life. Read the article for many other issues:

https://chronicle.com/article/Where-Fem ... ng/141293/

Feminism isn't the reason or the cause of their unhappiness. Feminism mean that women are treated as autonomous adults. We are no longer property, we are not longer chattel, we are able to live as full human beings, fully endowed by our created with certain inalienable rights.

The fact that we get in situations that make us unhappy is not actually the fault of feminism. Feminism gives us opportunities. It doesn't force us to do anything. Those choices that you're bemoaning? They may be regrettable choices. There may be better choices. They may want to make changes. But feminism is not why they made those choices. They made those choices for their own reasons. Feminism enabled them to make those choices, but did not force it on them.

I've been in places where I was unhappy with my current situation. Do you know what I didn't do? I didn't blame feminism. I looked at what opportunities I could create (and not by lying to my husband and sabotaging my birth control) to get to a place where I was happier. Yes, sometimes we make bad decisions, everyone does. Sometimes we get stuck in situations where we don't know how to change things or how to move forward. But that doesn't mean we should "submit more" or let someone else make decisions for us. It just means that we need to spend a little time in reflection and prayer, if that's what works for you, and figure out how to get to a place where we are happier.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have a serious question for the legal brains here.

Is it illegal to call somebody a fucking monster? In the written word, or on the internet?

I don't personally recall being involved in the thread mentioned or the TOOL one, I just thought it was not my thing hey ho.

BUT is it illegal to call somebody who advocates hitting a child harder, a profanity laden title. It might not be pleasant, but is it illegal?

Disclaimer: I'm not licenced to practice law over the internet, so this is just a general discussion. For specific legal advice, consult your own lawyer.

A "monster", according to my online dictionary, is an imaginary creature. So, calling someone a monster is clearly in a different category than calling them something negative that actually exists. "John Doe is a member of the Nazi party" is libel if it is not true, because it is something that could be a true fact.

If you call someone a monster, it's an opinion. Period. It's not a "nice" description, but there is no legal requirement to be nice.

Is it immoral to call someone a monster? Well, the Golden Rule and requirement to love your neighbor generally means thatwant to treat others as you would want to be treated. That said, there are instances where someone may be in a position to deliver a rebuke, which may feel harsh in the moment but is ultimately for a person's benefit if it leads them to change their ways. There are also instances where delivering a public rebuke is necessary to make it clear that a community finds certain behavior unacceptable, and provide some moral clarity for the public.

I did my own Google search, and contrary to what Ken suggests, I don't believe that I directly called Lori a monster (I just responded to quotes where that phrase was part of the quote). For a long while, I held out some hope that she might be persuaded with more gentle language, since I have convinced some true believers in spanking to change their ways in the past. That hope is slowly fading for me.

There are times that I read things on the blog where there really isn't room for reasonable people to debate - there is stuff that is just wrong and even horrifying. In cases like that, some blunt criticism is warranted. Contrary to what Ken thinks, I'm not a total "liberal". I don't believe in moral relativism, I'm not afraid to use words like good and evil, and I believe in family values...it's just that Ken and Lori's values sometimes go directly against mine. For example, I value children and their well-being, so the thought of deliberately hurting small children is repugnant.

[Koala]

Lori Alexander on confronting daughters about weight:

As our daughters got older, if we thought they were gaining weight, we would talk to them about it. I know this is supposedly a "taboo" subject but we felt no subject was "taboo" with our children. If we saw any sin in their lives, we would talk to them about it.

Lori Alexander:

When you see your children overeating or gaining weight, are you allowed to talk to them about it? I would venture to say that most parents think it is wrong to say anthing to them. They can confront their children if they are lying, stealing, cheating, etc. but if they eat too much, they aren't allowed to confront them with this issue.

Ken and I disagreed with this philosophy. If we saw our children doing anything that we thought was harmful or against Scripture, we talked to them about it.

Many will say that this will lead to eating disorders in women. How many women do you know that haven't struggled in the area of weight and eating? I think it is just something most women will struggle with. Most people struggle with overeating, because food is so abundant and delicious in America.

I know it was hard for our girls if we ever brought it up to them but isn't it hard when anyone brings up any issue in your life that may be a bad habit or sin?

Lori later posted this quote on her blog:

Christian women need to be told the truth about men ~

Men are attracted to youth and looks. This is normal. Men are not evil, base or perverted for being attracted to youth and beauty. Young Christian girl, if you are not getting approached or asked out, it’s probably because you’re not attractive enough, you’re not nice enough or you’re not available enough. You need to work on this. You need to lose weight, grow your hair out, wear nice clothes and some decent makeup. You might be a b****, and if you are, you need to be nicer. If you really want to find a man and marry, then you need to get serious about it while you’re young.

Lori followed up with the following:

Is shame always a bad thing???

Thinking of taking Lori's advice on dealing with your daughter's weight? Think again.

Her two adult daughters have both detailed their struggles on their blogs.

Daughter 1 writes:

My biggest struggle as a dancer was my body image. I never was happy with what I saw in the mirror. Unlike artists who paint a portrait and marvel how their different paints created a beautiful painting; we are the paint. We use our bodies to create the art. Not only do we have to look at them (in class & rehearsals) but so does the audience (in performance).

In my early years of dance, my body became my obsession. I had not even hit puberty and I was worried that I was too curvy or not skinny enough. Not only did my image disorder cause insecurity, but it gave rise to a host of other issues: bad eating habits, depression, injuries, foggy thinking, sleepless nights, and more. Idolizing the way I looked never helped me. It did not improve my appearance or my performance.

Daughter 2 writes:

I have also struggled with unhealthy relationships with food from overeating and gaining weight to under-eating and losing the weight. It never got too extreme, but I can honestly admit that at one point I was on the verge of anorexia

She also touches on the issue of force feeding:

Between the milk allergy, stomach problems, low energy, prone to fainting/face-planting, anemia, and my mom forcing me to eat my salad when I was young {stubbornly, I would sit at the the table for over two hours a night refusing to eat my salad}, I am where I am at today

Force feeding is a pet topic of Lori's you might say, because once her daughters were grown, she transferred her bizarre obsession with food onto her granddaughter. She writes:

Emma would love to be the boss. Most children would love to be the boss if they could. Ryan made Emma's breakfast this morning. He started feeding it to her. After one bite she said, "No!" Ryan made her eat at least 20 bites between her crying. He doesn't want her to get her way and become a picky eater. He is a very smart daddy.

Erin told me that when they eat dinner, Emma begs for their food. Ryan didn't like that so he set a blanket down and made Emma sit on it with her toys and books while they ate. For a week, she would just sit there and scream. Then she would just cry. Now when he lays the blanket down, she crawls over to it and plays happily while they eat. She knows her daddy is boss and means what he says.

When the shit hit the fan after this post, Lori said the following:

Some of you may think that force feeding is just terrible. I disagree

[feministxtian]

Reading all of this makes me sick to my stomach.

I could not imagine forcing a child to sit and scream while I'm eating. Admittedly, when my children were small they had 2 choices for dinner...take it or leave it...BUT...I made meals that I knew they liked.

Hitting a 6 month old baby? OH HELL NO!!!!

I've read the blog and as far as I can see these people advocate what amounts to child abuse and domestic violence. No wonder my formerly fundie friend is a walking, talking mess after she finally left her abusive husband. She bought into all this stuff and her husband used it against her and the children while he refused to work, hindered her working to feed the family, beat the children and my friend AND had a crack addiction. Yet, because he was studying for the ministry, their friends and pastors thought the man walked on water...until all 6'4" and 250lbs of this man decided to beat my 5'1", 110lb friend senseless because she tried to keep him from following her into the bathroom.

Ken and Lori Alexander, you guys ARE monsters. You are NOT "Godly" and you damn sure don't fall under any reasonable or rational definition of Christian I can find. Just remember...there will be those who are told "Get away from me, I never knew you"...so...I guess I'll see you in hell.