Lori Alexander: Valentine's Day Causes Divorce

[Pam]

...No, you want equality and so equality you will get.

Meaning that our husbands will treat us as mature, capable adults rather than as if we are perpetual children in need of constant guidance and discipline? Excellent! Sign me up!!

We do not seek equality in a Christian marriage

Oh.........well then........never mind

[polecat]

If your Jewish scholars do not allow for spanking a child, please tell em what they do with this verse in the law? Are you going to tell me that there is not something a parent should do that is far more drastic than "time out" before they take their child to the elders to be stoned to death?

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear." Deut. 21:18-21.

King Solomon states that “Whoever spares the rod hates his son but if you love him, you will chasten him at an early age†(Proverbs 13:24). While this would seem to allow hitting one’s child in extreme situations, Jewish law takes very clear stands against the physical and emotional abuse of children, and thus hitting one’s children (beyond constraining them if they are acting wildly) stands outside normative Jewish practice. In addition, “rod†need not be taken literally, but as a metaphor to “tough love†and discipline – i.e. that parents have to teach their children appropriate behavior, and mustn’t let them run wild, as a lack of involvement leads to various negative consequences.

In addition, the Talmud warns parents not to hit their older children lest they unwittingly cause their children to hit back, a severe Biblical prohibition that the parents would be culpable for causing (Moed Katan 17a). Similarly, the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) states that parents shouldn’t be overbearing with their children regarding their own honor, and should turn a blind eye when children don’t honor their parents as fully as they could (Yoreh Deah 240:19).

http://www.jewishvaluesonline.org/79

Can you truly not think of any disciplinary strategies beyond spanking and time out? (That's a legitimate question.)

[Ken]

I have to wrap up for today, but her is a brief update on my thinking to this point.

Some of yo have given me some things to think about and to discuss with Lori over time:

She may or may not make any changes, but and here are the areas will will need to stand in disagreement with each other:

1) Submission is a Biblical concept that Lori will continue to teach. It is the aspirin she give wives who are looking for a great marriage, which is to look first at themselves and their own behavior and make sure that it is not negatively impacting their own goals and dreams in life. This is the most sound advice any life coach can give, and I have been giving this advice to my client offices for years with great success. You want to work at a happy place or have a happy home, start being happy and see if others around you do not respond in like manner. Why you find this message so offensive is because it is placed within the Biblical ideal of submission.

2) Spanking is Biblical, but i is not necessarily the only way to discipline, nor does it carry any godly connotations. It has proven to be a very valuable parenting tool and no studies have show differently in spite of what you believe. Certainly it must be used modestly, but this group's idea of zero spanking and our view is worlds apart and will never be aligned. We believe in a tough world whee obedience and discipline will get you a long way to an outstanding life. That is why spots and ballet and other disciplines are important for kids where they get injured and hurt far worse than any spanking they will get.

We do not teach abusive spanking practices abut because the words spank harder may be misinterpreted by some Eskimo or idiot parent, it may not be appropriate to give that form of advice to strangers who may not balance it with understanding that there should never be an intent to bruise or leave any marks that last more than a few minutes. Spanking can inadvertently lead to a bruised hand when the child places their hand in the way of a wooden spoon, so please take every precaution to avoid spanking anything other than a child's bottom. But I leave open the idea that some children need harder spankings and I am libertarian in the sense that the state should not come into my home and tell me what to do with my children, unless I am harming them... which I have proven I have not. We cannot legislate away Coca-Cola, all sugar, alcohol, etc. We have to assume a parent is reasonable until shown otherwise.

3) We need to consider how the message impacts non-Christians and potential those who call themselves Christians, but are overzealous in their application of what they see to be submission. Submission as clearly taught by Lori is not demeaning or dominating and it is to be given willingly. If a wife does not choose to submit, a husband is to love her into changing. The except to the case may be a very difficult wife who needs to understand as gently as possible that her husband will no longer put up with her shenanigans of yelling, being demeaning, controlling and saying hurtful things. This is a small issue with difficult wives, but just as there are difficult and abusive husbands, so too their are difficult and abusive wives. We believe you first apply the aspirin solution of loving the difficult person, and if that fails, begin to set boundaries and get additional help. This applies to both the husband or wife of a difficult spouse.

4) The vast majority of the participants on this Forum have an agenda based on pain and difficulties they experienced in life from their parents, or from their spouse or the church. There are a lot of hurting people in this world and that is why Lori started her blog. Every day Lori receives thank yous from many success stories in marriages, and is not going to stop blogging because non-Christians or liberal Christians disagree with her. She is encouraged daily to keep going strong because she gives hope to many marriages that where hope seemed lost and it is restored, often along with a completely restored marriage.

5) Your Forum is often unfair and I see far too many purposeful lies, mischaracterizations of the truth, and unwillingness to look at context with significant lack of balance. What should I expect from a "hate Fundies Forum" but such willful discarding of the truth and replacing it often with lies. I have tried to glean through the manure to find a pony, but the pony is not forthcoming. All that becomes more and more apparent is that our worldviews don't intersect, they collide. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate Christian philosophy. This is nothing new to Christianity, just something relatively new to America and it will get worse as time goes on and society continues to go into the sewer of promiscuity, and filth. Darkness wants no fellowship with the light, it hates the light.

You want to deal with everything from a worldly perspective and I from a Biblical perspective. I rarely get answers from you when I prove to you that what we teach is indeed Biblical and sound. You can't see it... or get it. The beautiful perfume of the gospel of Jesus has always smelled to those who can't see it. I only hope that some of you will appreciate the dialogue and be wiling to be more open minded and fair in your characterizations of us as decent people would. There is so much about abortion, and other social evils that God detests but we put up with it for the sake of harmony with our fellow citizens. Hopefully you all can do the same in the name of religious freedom and social freedom. I am a bit more open minded to you.

Out for now... but will be back to talk to you Artemis and finish our conversation. I have to start curtailing my time on the Forum, and can't answer all questions anymore with too many coming at me. Once I am caught up with my work I hope to spend more time from time to time to see how we can better relate to the world without being a part of it. .

[salex]

You ask a very good question when you say show me in the words of Jesus, not Paul, where it tells a wife to be submissive.

This was the question that was asked... but then you immediately reframe the question so that you can answer without answering...

It is important to understand that the entire life and existence of Jesus is born out of submission. Jesus we are told was fully God in nature, “though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross†(Phil. 2:6-8).

Reframing of the question...

The results of Christ’s life of submission are twofold: 1) We as believers are told to have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,†(Phil 2:1) and “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,†(Phil 1:9).

Hence the entire model of Christ’s submission becomes the model for each and every Believer, husband and wife with the anticipated results that our sacrificial love will be exalted with Christ Jesus in this life and the next.

So this is where you make your assumption that you will base the rest of your answer upon, however, you take a huge leap in both logic and theology. However, it does let you just then throw in whatever unrelated verse you want to 'answer' the initial question about where Jesus specifically addressed wives submitting to husbands

Now for the words of Jesus on this important subject of submission and sacrifice: (which is all nice, but not an answer to the question..)

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends†(John 15:13). This is part of a whole chapter that is discussing Christ's mission on earth and foreshadowing his death on the cross. It does not specifically relate to marriage roles in any way.

“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.†(Matt 10:38-39) Sending out the 12 --launching the missionaries. Again, no direct mention of spousal roles, though it does include the reminder not to love family more than Christ.

"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. 26"If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.†(John 12:25-26)

This one really lacks context as it is part of Christ's prediction of his death, and tells his followers a couple of things.. 1, that his death will result in moe converts and echoes his continuing call that they must follow him to get eternal reward. add the rest of the paragraph and you have :

23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

NOTHING related to specific marital roles.

“and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matt. 20:27-28) THis is an answer to a specific incident about disciples jockeying (via their helicopter mom, lol) He is telling explaining their organizational set up to someone who came in asking for her kids to have more power.... It is NOT specifically about marriage.

[b “HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Matt 19:19) Is your husband not your neighbor? [b

Someone else says yes, I say , not so much as I was taught your neighbor was someone not related to you that you had contact with but were not necessarily a friend.

But beyond that, not only are you are quoting Christ as he quotes the old testament (ie, not his words) but he is using the old testament example in a situation completely unrelated to marriage at all. Context is so critical, Ken...

The story you pulled this verse from , in its entirety.

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?â€

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?†Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.â€

18 “Which ones?†he inquired.Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]†(note the quoting)

20 “All these I have kept,†the young man said. “What do I still lack?†21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.†22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.†25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?†26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.†27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?†28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

In other words, a sermon to reassure the disciples that they had made the correct choice.

"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.†(Matt 5:39-40)

So, Ken, I guess this is the defense of abuse section of your attempt?

This has long been taught as a way to stand against the Roman occupiers of the time without actual confrontation OR complete passive acceptance. Unless you see Husbands as occupiers and Wives as an occupied nation, again, this has a distinct message for a distinct situation that is NOT describing marriage.

“And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.†(Mark 12:33)

Not to pick nits, but that quote is not even spoken by Jesus, but by a scribe or teacher who is talking with Jesus about the greatest commandments from God. Also, it is about Jesus' theology being accepted by the scribe/teacher others gathered there--not marriage.

In context

The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?â€

29 “The most important one,†answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.â€

Jesus was quoting the commandments in this bit, so if you want to quote Jesus use of this verse, which is him quoting and confirming the value of the commandment, use vs 29, not 33.

And it continues---

]i]32 “Well said, teacher,†the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.â€

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.†And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

“You are my friends if you do what I command you.†(John 15:14) Not related to marriage...

“When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.†(John 12:13-14)

“And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.†(9:35)

Artemis, the words of Jesus are almost endless when it comes to asking His disciples, those of us who believe in Him, to live our lives as He did full of service and sacrifice, even to the point of death if need be.

Which, in the USA is mostly a lot of talk, since Christianity, in its many variations, is the dominant religion in the USA and when was the last Christian Martyr there in the San Diego area?

This message is for both husband and wife, but how it plays out in a Christian marriage is one where the husband shows love, service and sacrifice through his leadership, as the wife willingly serves the man she says she loves the most in the whole world.

And thank you for your interjected opinion here, but again, no direct quote of Jesus saying wives be subservient/ submissive to your husband. Your voice is not Christ’s.

Jesus makes every point to remind us that our sacrifice and service is to Him first, and as we love those around us with service, we please Him and we obey Him, even if it is not reciprocal. How many loved Jesus in return in His lifetime? Only a few who became a growing mountain that permeates the whole world. One man’s sacrifice leads to billions who now serve Him by serving others. Should not this service begin at home with our loved ones first? If not, are would we not be hypocrites?

Since we are tossing around random verses, how about this one… If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them, from a couple of verses after your “turn the other cheek†section-- in Luke.

Yes, we are not perfect in our love and service and the typical Christian life experience is one that may start off shaky and imperfect in our sacrificial love, but as we spend more time with Jesus in our lives we become more and more like Him.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. †(Matt 7:22-23) What is the will of Jesus except that we love Him, we serve Him, and we show His love to everyone by the way we love one another?

Not related to Jesus saying anything specific about the wife/husband relationship.

Almost every word of all of the other new Testament writers echo the words of Christ that we are to be like Him, and like Him means unconditional surrender to serving other first, before ourselves.

A wife’s submission does not come from the Pauline passages but from the model, work and life of her Lord Jesus.

And yet, when given the chance to give Jesus directly teaching on wife's roles and husband's roles and how they differ, we get nothing that states an opinion on that directly. Oddly enough, that is not how submission is ever taught--it always goes back to those verses from Paul, but keep preaching—since you couldn’t show us any actual verses that answered Artemis’ question.

The admonition to submit to one’s husband is given to show that the husband is to lead with sacrificial love and the wife is to serve with sacrificial love.

That is from Paul, as Artemis pointed out. You have given us many verses, often without context, that recommend following Christ and possibly even being kind and serving others. However, none of them are given more to a woman than a man, they are not related to marriage in context and thus, they do not answer Artemis’ question.

The irony is that to the Christian, “the first will be last and the last first†and “the greatest will become the least of these.†To lead means we as husbands are to be the first to serve our wife and family, but we cannot serve as me as intended by God if we are to serve under conditions demanded by a wife, instead of thoughtfully implemented by our leadership qualities.

I have seen that what often makes the greatest of leaders is not at first the leader him/herself, but rather the followers. As they follow and serve they help develop the leadership qualities of their supervisor. The same is true in wifely submission. Most great men got to the top of love and service because of their wife, not because they were any great stuff to begin with. I am a radically changed man because of Lori and her commitment to serve and follow me. Without her willingness to follow, I have no cause to develop my leadership in the marriage. And when I lead, I must consider her as more important than I am.

No, a Christian wife cannot wait until her husband grows spiritual leadership qualities before she follows him and submits to him. To do so will violate a hundred or more Biblical admonitions and commands, and will block the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of her husband. (So where does jesus say THAT??)

We all must individually do our part, even if the other spouse does not do their part. This is the life of Jesus and this is the essence of Christianity, selfless service out of love for our God who gave up His Son so that we might live with Him, today and for eternity.

[polecat]

Ken:

The simple answer is that Jewish scholars do not follow a simple, literal reading of the Old Testament alone, but also have a much more extensive oral tradition (Talmud). Since the Talmud is not a holy book in the Christian tradition, there's not much to discuss, other than to say that there is some documentary evidence going back at least 1,500-2,000 years that the "rebellious son" punishment wasn't something that the community ever carried out. In any event, in Judaism today all death penalties are only theoretical, since they required a full trial in front of the Sanhedrin, which ceased to exist due to Roman persecution.

I see no point in debating basic theology. If you and Lori feel that your faith in Jesus makes you better as people, and gives the comfort needed to manage through Lori's health issues, then I wouldn't want to do anything to take that away from you.

I've long suspected that this is the ancient version of "YOU ARE GROUNDED UNTIL YOU ARE 35, YOUNG MAN/WOMAN!"

[polecat]

I have to wrap up for today, but her is a brief update on my thinking to this point.

5) Your Forum is often unfair and I see far too many purposeful lies, mischaracterizations of the truth, and unwillingness to look at context with significant lack of balance. What should I expect from a "hate Fundies Forum" but such willful discarding of the truth and replacing it often with lies. I have tried to glean through the manure to find a pony, but the pony is not forthcoming. All that becomes more and more apparent is that our worldviews don't intersect, they collide. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate Christian philosophy. This is nothing new to Christianity, just something relatively new to America and it will get worse as time goes on and society continues to go into the sewer of promiscuity, and filth. Darkness wants no fellowship with the light, it hates the light.

Oh, nonsense. I'm a Christian and most certainly do not hate God. But I'm sure it fits more easily into your little black-and-white worldview to cast everyone in this forum as "against God" rather than against bad theology/stupid doctrine/abuse. You're being intellectually dishonest.

[salex]

Ken wrote:

...but let's assume that Adam and Eve were 100% partners in everything, what do you do with Genesis 3:16: "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Is it possible that God is assigning roles fr their marriage here and as it turns out those roles are played out throughout the OT with only a few exceptions like the judge Deborah? Why would God make 100% partners yet it never happen in real life of the OT and the life of Israel?

Because Males were writing the Bible and selected the Canon.

[OkToBeTakei]

Out for now... but will be back to talk to you Artemis and finish our conversation. I have to start curtailing my time on the Forum, and can't answer all questions anymore with too many coming at me. Once I am caught up with my work I hope to spend more time from time to time to see how we can better relate to the world without being a part of it. .

Loosely translated as I will cherry pick who I respond to just as I cherry pick the bible.

Now I will never know if he really believes that heaven will only be full of 'saved' evangelical American Christians.

[Pam]

I am only speaking for myself here, I can't speak for anyone else....

You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate Christian philosophy

Wrong, I absolutely DO NOT hate God, and I only hate "True Christians™" and "True Christian™" philosophy.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There's a recurring theme that have always left me shaking my head, which I doubt has anything to do with Christianity:

Men seeing caring for their own children (sometimes just referred to as "the kid") as some chore that their wives nag them about, and a favor that they may do for their wives if the wives behave nicely.

I see this attitude over and over again from not just Ken, but also cabinetman and jsr. I just don't get it.

As I've mentioned before, we struggled with repeated miscarriages. My BIL desperately wanted children, but their first pregnancy ended in a stillbirth. The men in our family wanted so badly to become fathers, and to be with their children. They see their children as precious souls, entrusted to them by God. Yes, on a day to day level, my husband works long hours, especially when he need to cover extra shifts, but when he's home, I can't keep him away from the kids. He's not doing me a favor by spending time with the kids - they are HIS children too and he WANTS to be with them!

***********************************************************************************************************

FWIW, I'm religious, don't hate God and don't hate Christianity.

My day job involves working with families that are falling apart, including cases involving serious cases of child abuse and domestic violence. I want people to know the sort of peace and happiness in their home lives that I've been blessed to have in mine, because I can't picture anything sadder than not having that.

[ILoveJellybeans]

What should a woman do if her husband wants to do something really ridiculous and probably dangerous, that is not in the best interests of the rest of the family, or is treating her cruelly.

If you look around this forum, you will see many examples.

What about Esther Shrader, 8 kids and pregnant with another, and currently homeless because her unemployed husband decided he wanted to be a missionary, sold the house and set off on the road begging for money (with no intentions of getting a job and earning it) so he can go and live in Zambia, even though this could be dangerous for his kids (he says theres a lot of hazards that his kids could die from, but he hopes they have plenty more birthdays to live). For some time they lived in a pop up that was way too small for such a large family (no idea how/where any of these kids were conceived).

Or what about Michael and Debi Pearl's honeymoon story. He wanted to beat a record for how many times he could have sex with her on their honeymoon (his friend says that he and his wife did it six times). He cared more about this than Debi's safety and feelings. He kept waking her up to pressure her into sex, even though she had only just lost her virginity to him that night. He wanted to go crabbing, but was so impatient he made her go out barefoot as she couldn't find her shoes. He made her cook for him while he went to sleep. She passed out from exhaustion. Exactly what point in this mess is a woman allowed to say "Stop that you selfish ass, and leave me alone before I divorce you".

[OkToBeTakei]

Oh, nonsense. I'm a Christian and most certainly do not hate God. But I'm sure it fits more easily into your little black-and-white worldview to cast everyone in this forum as "against God" rather than against bad theology/stupid doctrine/abuse. You're being intellectually dishonest.

I really, really wish he would stop using the word Christian as he does. Why not use his particular denomination? It's just so.....arrogant. Also Ken you do not have a worldview. If you did you would realise how parochial and ignorant you sound to somebody not from America. I grew up in a 'Christian' country where two denominations of Christianity had great fun killing one another for decades. Do not presume to talk for 'Christianity.' Also if you are trying for the Christianity persecution angle which is another wannabe hallmark of your brand of religious fervour. Don't. Just please. Don't. Persecution is not people disagreeing with you.

[GeoBQn]

We do not teach abusive spanking practices abut because the words spank harder may be misinterpreted by some Eskimo or idiot parent

Holy racism, Batman!

Also, if anybody was curious about how Jews interpret Isaiah 53:

jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-53/isaiah-53-explained/

[theologygeek]

I have to wrap up for today, but her is a brief update on my thinking to this point.

It's getting a little too hot in here for you, isn't it Kenny? The little wimmins can bible you under the table.

Spanking is Biblical

No. Beating is biblical. You're doing it wrong. You still haven't addressed Matt 25 by the way. You said that you would match up fruits any day, with anyone. Still waiting for a fruit match up.

You hate God

I love God with my whole heart, my whole soul, and my whole mind. I'm not ashamed to call myself a Jesus lover.

you hate Christians

I don't hate myself.

you hate Christian philosophy.

Just the kind that come from people who are inept at interpreting Scripture.

I am a bit more open minded

Yeah. I agree with you there. Perverts usually are more open minded anyway.

[formergothardite]

What should a woman do if her husband wants to do something really ridiculous and probably dangerous, that is not in the best interests of the rest of the family, or is treating her cruelly.

If you look around this forum, you will see many examples.

What about Esther Shrader, 8 kids and pregnant with another, and currently homeless because her unemployed husband decided he wanted to be a missionary, sold the house and set off on the road begging for money (with no intentions of getting a job and earning it) so he can go and live in Zambia, even though this could be dangerous for his kids (he says theres a lot of hazards that his kids could die from, but he hopes they have plenty more birthdays to live). For some time they lived in a pop up that was way too small for such a large family (no idea how/where any of these kids were conceived).

Or what about Michael and Debi Pearl's honeymoon story. He wanted to beat a record for how many times he could have sex with her on their honeymoon (his friend says that he and his wife did it six times). He cared more about this than Debi's safety and feelings. He kept waking her up to pressure her into sex, even though she had only just lost her virginity to him that night. He wanted to go crabbing, but was so impatient he made her go out barefoot as she couldn't find her shoes. He made her cook for him while he went to sleep. She passed out from exhaustion. Exactly what point in this mess is a woman allowed to say "Stop that you selfish ass, and leave me alone before I divorce you".

I've already asked about them and he ignored it. Maybe he will call John a Not True Christian?

I wonder what Cabinet Man would say if he found out that Lori is not being submissive to Ken?

[Micah]

Ken: I find something very interesting in appointing managers and in marriages that often when the team or wife lets the leader lead, they step up to the place and begin to live out their responsibilities. Many a woman Lori have counseled has walked into the TV room and handed the husband the check book and said, “Honey, you are supposed to be in charge of the finances, if you need help knowing what bills needs to be paid just ask and I will show you how it is done.†The wife often does everything because she cannot live with his timing or his potentially getting the household “in trouble†when that may be exactly what he needs to grow up. Let him lead and love him all the way down and back up again if that is what it takes.

As I stated way back, my man has NO responsibility with money, none. A fact he freely admits. He's a kind, caring man, a hard worker, a great father. But his attitude to money is, "if it's there, I must spend it." We have a beautiful house......and a mortgage. So in the interests of 'submission' I should hand him the money and let him have at it in order to grow up and be a man? And when we lose the house, then what? Rent for the rest of our lives, having lost our dream? Nuh, uh....aint gunna happen.

[salex]

Just a portion, but you hit a hot button of mine.

And what are you afraid of? Would your husband devalue and take advantage if you if you were to sellout for him and love him unconditionally, serving him even when he did not treat you equal?

Love between adults is not unconditional. If I were to have an affair, my husband's love would rightly be diminished. If he were to abuse me, my love for him would rightly be diminished. While I believe babies and children should get unconditional love from their parents, adults do, and should, have deal breakers that they will not put up with. Not to do so can and does lead to problems in real life.

Or would he instead begin to treat you like his princess because his joy would be overflowing that you loved him

Understand, you don't have to be submissive to be treated like a queen by a spouse, or a man like a king. I suspect many many egalitarian marriages are filled with love.

so much not just to play “tit for tat†with him throughout life, There's that strawman. While apparently you and Lori did a lot of this kind of thing before she saw the light and caught the submission bug, the assumption that everyone in non submissive marriages is in some kind of argumentative, score keeping, "tit for tat" relationship. Whomever is desperate in their marriage and comes to you or lorri for advice would be the people with screwed up marriages. The people who are happy in their egalitarian marriages would never darken your door asking for help--because they don't need help.

but to sell out for him in complete love with one goal to please him. We please each other ... there are many ways to support one another without one person subsuming their existence to the other.

Or is your selfish spirit still demand you protect yourself from him? If so, you will never achieve the highest levels of love and intimacy. Nice, try, but you immediately contradict yourself.

The highest levels are when both spouses are completely sold out for each other, but it often begins with just one.

Or, if you find two people who are so much for each other that neither has to be coerced or manipulated into loving the other.

You never told me why you and Lori married, given how incompatible you describe your first years of marriage. I would think teaching people a better selection process for marriage would be better than teaching how to fix a bad marriage, but that is just me.

[formergothardite]

I have no desire to be treated like a "princess". What does that even mean? I want to be treated like an adult. One that my husband respects and treats as an equal. I'm going to hazard a guess that my marriage is more filled with love than the marriage of the woman whose husband left her in the cold because it wasn't a priority to him.

[Hisey]

Ken wrote

Ken: How about a 33 year Christian marriage? How about 100+ marriage and family books read and digested. In today’s world experience can be better than any collage degree, but Lori dies have a University degree and a graduate degree.

Ken, you never bothered to read Created to Be His Helpmeet, the book that saved your marriage. How can you say that you have read 100 plus marriage books? And I don't think Lori's degrees in math or education really are relevant here. Lots of people have university degrees, very few are qualified to give marital advice. And staying in a marriage is not proof of anything--it may simply indicate lethargy or strong views against divorce. I know lots of miserable people who have been together for 30+ years.

The Four Hour Spanking Session Lori wrote about

Could you please tell us about the four-hour spanking sessions you had with each of your toddlers?

a. How come it took four hours?

b. How much of that time was actually hitting the child?

c. Did you use your strap or something else?

d. Were both you and Lori present at all times, or did you take turns?

e. Would you do this again today if your kids were still little?

f. Would you hit your grandkids for four hours

g. Did your son and daughter-in-law hit their daughter for four hours with a strap? Why or why not?

[formergothardite]

It doesn't matter how long she has been married or how many books she has read or if she has a "collage" degree. None of that matters if she doesn't have the common sense to realize that she shouldn't give blanket advice when she doesn't know the whole story and she is biased. But Ken isn't going to address any of this. He will keep on talking about her qualifications.

[dairyfreelife]

1) Submission is a Biblical concept that Lori will continue to teach. It is the aspirin she give wives who are looking for a great marriage, which is to look first at themselves and their own behavior and make sure that it is not negatively impacting their own goals and dreams in life. This is the most sound advice any life coach can give, and I have been giving this advice to my client offices for years with great success. You want to work at a happy place or have a happy home, start being happy and see if others around you do not respond in like manner. Why you find this message so offensive is because it is placed within the Biblical ideal of submission.

Aspirin just helps with symptoms, not the underlying cause. It is offensive because the underlying idea is that women are less, that they are beneath men. It means the man is placing himself above her and let's face it, once you put someone in charge of another, abuse can happen. It happens in work environments, in schools, governments, everywhere. The idea of I am above you means that people begin to see the other as below and when that happens, the person can easily get away with harming the other and justify it because they deserved it, they needed that punishment, they aren't as good so they don't matter as much as you anyway, they are unworthy.

Also, submission is almost entirely a Paul concept. Jesus never said women were beneath men or they should submit. Paul did. In fact, a lot of Paul's own words helped me closer to the path of atheism because it's hurtful words to women. You need to be quiet, you have nothing useful to say, you are unworthy, it's your fault this world sucks, you are never going to be as important, etc. If you look at other parts of the world, even other monotheistic cultures, you can see the disdain for females. Having a daughter is disappointing. Many daughters, twin daughters, cursed. We here want girls and women to be treated with respect, to be equal in status to men, to be seen as just as valuable and to be honored just as men are. We want girls to matter just as much boys. We want women to be able to be more than wives and mothers, just as men can be more than husbands and fathers. All are valued things in life, but you can be more than just those titles. Women deserve the same opportunities for life, for love, for education, for work, for status, for everything that men are given. Don't you think Alyssa and Cassie deserve everything in life? I can tell from yours and Lori's writing that you are so proud of them and love them very much. You offered them a good life and a good education, an education that would not have been given to them in the past simply because they were born girls. But you seemed to think they should have that and did not prevent them from learning because they were girls, so they only needed to know how to clean and cook and care for children, no, you let him pursue their dreams and passions and higher education. We want that for all women here too.

2) Spanking is Biblical, but i is not necessarily the only way to discipline, nor does it carry any godly connotations. It has proven to be a very valuable parenting tool and no studies have show differently in spite of what you believe. Certainly it must be used modestly, but this group's idea of zero spanking and our view is worlds apart and will never be aligned. We believe in a tough world whee obedience and discipline will get you a long way to an outstanding life. That is why spots and ballet and other disciplines are important for kids where they get injured and hurt far worse than any spanking they will get.

We do not teach abusive spanking practices abut because the words spank harder may be misinterpreted by some Eskimo or idiot parent, it may not be appropriate to give that form of advice to strangers who may not balance it with understanding that there should never be an intent to bruise or leave any marks that last more than a few minutes. Spanking can inadvertently lead to a bruised hand when the child places their hand in the way of a wooden spoon, so please take every precaution to avoid spanking anything other than a child's bottom. But I leave open the idea that some children need harder spankings and I am libertarian in the sense that the state should not come into my home and tell me what to do with my children, unless I am harming them... which I have proven I have not. We cannot legislate away Coca-Cola, all sugar, alcohol, etc. We have to assume a parent is reasonable until shown otherwise.

I think you spank because you were spanked and felt it worked. My parents were spanked occasionally. I was spanked on the rare occasion as well. I am not okay with it myself and can see the great benefit of not hitting. Call it spanking, not hitting, but by all definitions it is hitting. You are placing an object or a hand on a child with force. And yes, many studies have shown that spanking has many negative effects to children, especially a lot of spanking.

I am certain none of us played a sport to get injured. The discipline involved with sports is working hard and building the strength and stamina. Injuries can and do occur with sports, but that happens when you move around in a group of people. My parents never required obedience from us. Instant obedience never seemed like a good idea to require of children to me. i believe, and so do many here from my experience, that children should question authority at times. They shouldn't just do as told without thought. Instant obedience seems too risky and ripe for abusive authority figures to cause harm.

Also, did you seriously just use the term Eskimo and then put them with idiot parents as if they are idiots too? Wow, that's very racist. I think you should rethink that statement there.

3) If a wife does not choose to submit, a husband is to love her into changing. The except to the case may be a very difficult wife who needs to understand as gently as possible that her husband will no longer put up with her shenanigans of yelling, being demeaning, controlling and saying hurtful things. This is a small issue with difficult wives, but just as there are difficult and abusive husbands, so too their are difficult and abusive wives. We believe you first apply the aspirin solution of loving the difficult person, and if that fails, begin to set boundaries and get additional help. This applies to both the husband or wife of a difficult spouse.

I can tell you right now that if I was married and my husband suddenly became a Christian and wanted me to submit, I would not do so. He can love me all he wants, but I am not going to change to submit to him. I don't submit to my partner, my equal, my lover. I am not underneath him and if he doesn't like that, he can leave. I am his equal, not his child.

Also, yes, men and women can be abusive, but so-called difficult spouses are not the same as abusive ones. Neither spouse should be demeaning the other or saying hurtful things and those need addressed by a professional if they are occurring as that's bordering emotional abuse.

4) The vast majority of the participants on this Forum have an agenda based on pain and difficulties they experienced in life from their parents, or from their spouse or the church. There are a lot of hurting people in this world and that is why Lori started her blog. Every day Lori receives thank yous from many success stories in marriages, and is not going to stop blogging because non-Christians or liberal Christians disagree with her. She is encouraged daily to keep going strong because she gives hope to many marriages that where hope seemed lost and it is restored, often along with a completely restored marriage.

Yes, many members have been harmed, but their only agenda is to get the word out of the abuses that do occur, things they know and/or have seen. There's a lot of hurt in the this world, yes, but submitting to your spouse and spanking toddlers isn't going to solve the hurt and all the world's problems.

5) Your Forum is often unfair and I see far too many purposeful lies, mischaracterizations of the truth, and unwillingness to look at context with significant lack of balance. What should I expect from a "hate Fundies Forum" but such willful discarding of the truth and replacing it often with lies. I have tried to glean through the manure to find a pony, but the pony is not forthcoming. All that becomes more and more apparent is that our worldviews don't intersect, they collide. You hate God, you hate Christians, you hate Christian philosophy. This is nothing new to Christianity, just something relatively new to America and it will get worse as time goes on and society continues to go into the sewer of promiscuity, and filth. Darkness wants no fellowship with the light, it hates the light.

What lies? We do not hate fundies. We show light to the abuses and dangers fundamentalists of all religions, though most of us live in predominately Christian countries, so we talk about them the most, though any fundie we think is concerning we talk about here. We are not lying.

Also, people here do not hate your God or your religion or your religion's ideas. There are many Christians here, so that's insulting to them. I do not have your God either. I don't believe he exists. That's like saying I hate the tooth fairy. I love and know numerous Christians, so that's also a silly statement to me. Hate them I do not. I do not hate your philosophy. I hate your philosophy trying to dictate the lives of others. I am unsure what you mean by new to America, what is new? Atheism, non-Christians? No, those are not new. Promiscuity, maybe, depending on what you mean by that. Sex sells, prostitution is the oldest profession known to humans, and filth...again, context to what you mean by filth? Crime is down lower than has been in over 60 years, property and violent crime. Teen pregnancy and abortion rates are decreasing. Many of our cities are reasonably clean for their high population, and much more better things than in the past. So not sure what filth means.

I rarely get answers from you when I prove to you that what we teach is indeed Biblical and sound. You can't see it... or get it. The beautiful perfume of the gospel of Jesus has always smelled to those who can't see it. I only hope that some of you will appreciate the dialogue and be wiling to be more open minded and fair in your characterizations of us as decent people would. There is so much about abortion, and other social evils that God detests but we put up with it for the sake of harmony with our fellow citizens. Hopefully you all can do the same in the name of religious freedom and social freedom. I am a bit more open minded to you.

No one here is telling you that you can't believe or follow your thoughts on your religion. It's the fact that you give your interpretation as facts without seeing that it's not for everyone. Many of us get your point, but we are showing you other ways to see the same exact verse and that that is just as sound. You do not want to see it either. Many of us are trying to understand, trying to see it, trying to listen to your ideas and answer you. You are not really doing the same for us though from what I have seen. Instead, you accuse us and others of not being real Christians, that we must hate you and your God and religion. Religion is about faith. You cannot prove your God is real. I cannot prove your God is not real. You believe in it. I do and cannot. But how many times have politicians told you that because of your ideas regarding religion, you should not be a citizen of America, that you should leave? How much anger do you get from others when you admit you are Christian? Do you get told you are going to hell for your beliefs or lack thereof in my case? Do you have to hide the fact that you are Christian from family, from friends, from other people due to the backlash and hate you would get it if they knew you were a Christian? As an atheist, I get all the above. I would be fine to live in harmony with other religions. The problem is they do not want to live in harmony with me at all in my experience. I have really yet to come across a strong believer in their religion who is okay with me not believing in their religion. There's little to zero open-mindedness from what I have seen from believers of other religions.

[Coconut Flan]

I really, really wish he would stop using the word Christian as he does. Why not use his particular denomination?

Does anyone remember which church they attend? Mr. Google is failing me or I'm inept.

[salex]

Does anyone remember which church they attend? Mr. Google is failing me or I'm inept.

Ken and I have attended a Calvary Chapel the past five years.

From her blog on Feb 16th this year

[samurai_sarah]

I really, really wish he would stop using the word Christian as he does. Why not use his particular denomination? It's just so.....arrogant. Also Ken you do not have a worldview. If you did you would realise how parochial and ignorant you sound to somebody not from America. I grew up in a 'Christian' country where two denominations of Christianity had great fun killing one another for decades. Do not presume to talk for 'Christianity.' Also if you are trying for the Christianity persecution angle which is another wannabe hallmark of your brand of religious fervour. Don't. Just please. Don't. Persecution is not people disagreeing with you.

QFT! I also hail from a "Christian" country. Something like 70% of the population belong to two denominations. The others either hold different beliefs or don't fancy paying church tax. Us lot stopped killing each other a good while ago. But then, I suppose, for Ken neither of our two denominations would count as "Christian" - we only have the Catholic church and the Protestant church (among the 70% who tell IR about it). And the most popular head of the Protestant church in recent years was...wait for it... a female bishop, who literally said that the contraceptive pill was a "gift from God". Oh, she's also divorced. But, I'm sure in Ken's eyes 70% of Germans aren't "Christian", because they're either Catholics or the "wrong" sort of Protestant.

As for persecution, well, our two major denominations gave up killing each other quite a while back. But in living memory, we did do that thing where we tortured and murdered 6 million Jews (Sinti, Roma, homosexuals and political dissidents, Jehova's Witnesses and others). THAT's persecution, Ken! I cannot stand it, when someone uses that word, because someone else disagreed with them on the internet! :angry-banghead:

[Coconut Flan]

From her blog on Feb 16th this year

OK, thank you! That explains pretty much everything to me. I've seen some very strange and heartbreaking changes in people when they began going there.